Decree of the Sith

[Daeryon]

o/ NSO.

[Heft]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' timestamp='1281315774' post='2405670']
You must admit that, in fairness to RoK, they couldn't have appreciated the fact that you took in a rogue that they were attacking. I think given that taking in that rogue was an affront to RoK (granted, you may not have known it at the time, which is perfectly forgivable), their asking for a token gesture of respect like not aiding the rogue they were at odds with after you, mistakenly or otherwise, took him in was a fair concession to ask for. I can see why you wouldn't appreciate that, but it would have been a way to make amends between RoK and NSO and keep the peace. We could argue about who should have been the bigger man and let the insult to their alliance go for the sake of peace, but if you have any empathy, I'm sure you can understand why Hoo took this as a challenge to his alliance. I know you didn't think Hoo would react the way he did, that's obvious from the current state of things and your decision not to ask for help, which makes it all the more tragic that it could have been avoided if you'd realized that Hoo meant it when he said he considered it an act of war. A little empathy probably could have avoided all of this.

In any case, the limits of what is a legitimate casus belli, though there may be unwritten conventions on what is taboo and what isn't, should be clearly defined, and I think that's everyone's fault for not getting together and actually agreeing on a set of rules for appropriate conduct as an alliance. If Hoo was legitimately offended, and you legitimately didn't understand why he should be, that's a clear indication that we're working from different social conventions here, and we've got different ideas of what's right and wrong in inter-alliance diplomacy. It may prevent wars like this, but even if it doesn't, it will at least establish who is in the right and who the wrong in some semi-objective sense. I should think it would have, at least, stopped this war from happening.
[/quote]
Oh, I understood he believed it to be an act of war, even if I disagreed. I also understand that almost always, "acts of war" do not result in an actual war, especially when the act is so negligible.

They had been informed of our position and ignored it. As they are more powerful, they can get away with that, and I wasn't even really trying to challenge that. I didn't really expect us to get our way, but I did expect some discussion to result. I misjudged, clearly.

[Kevlar]

[quote name='Eternal Enigma' timestamp='1281315055' post='2405605']
aint it the truth. you sign a treaty, which clearly defines you promise to defend your new ally and friend. then war breaks out, you never inact your treaty, you're silly if you expect someone to defend you later on . heck, why even sign the treaty if you arent going to uphold it? well, i guess if you just like signing things for the heck of it...
[/quote]
Speaking of [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=87784]silly[/url].

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281315390' post='2405634']
There's a reason short-and-to-the-point treaties aren't always a good idea.
[/quote]
Ambiguity is certainly more honorable.

-Kev

[crazyisraelie]

Oh this is going to be fun.

I'll gladly watch your alliance burn.

[Lenny N Karl]

[quote name='Balder' timestamp='1281315340' post='2405628']
Lenny, given NATO's history I'm honestly speechless you'd call OTHER alliances meat shields.

Also, those sort of comments really don't give you a vote of confidence towards being an unbiased moderator.
[/quote]

lol, yes mebbe so, but I haven't eaten tonight and I had food on the brain I guess. But history is history and we have done very much to move on.


As for the mediation. I do not consider the piling on to be part of the issue at hand. It is the original issue between RoK and NSO that I was making the offer to. I am still trying to get around to the actual details and views from both sides still. But get both sides to agree to resolve the issue in a diplomatic and professional way is the end goal. I have helped with issues in the past, it was merely an offer.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='FreddieMercury' timestamp='1281316027' post='2405696']
At least it speeds up the CnG-SF split.
[/quote]

How does it do that?

[TheThirdMark]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281315915' post='2405686']
[color="#0000FF"]No, we requested the information several times. We were met with threats and grandstanding from RoK. Heft, then sent the aid. But remember, their denying us the information and their disregard for diplomatic procedure predates any of the aid drama.[/color]
[/quote]


Blehh why do you have a good answer on my simple questions. You know, hate is hard to reach when someone is diplomatically enough to rethink their words. You should have been in the IRC querry and this shenanigan would have been avoided.

Then again, some acts deserve a war. Though not the way this is turning out.
Kicking a Tiger in the balls is funny. Specially when you havent given the idea about the lose claws a good thought. Though when that tiger brings an entire family the fun is gone, the love is dead.

[Believland]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1281313764' post='2405493']
Many times many alliances have asked their allies to stay out of a war for any one of many reasons. Thus your conclusion is stupid.
[/quote]

And it's always the good allies who help out regardless.
[quote name='Blue Lightning' timestamp='1281314001' post='2405514']
So if I said that if GOD doesn't change team colour to pink, TOP rolls them, would we be fully justified in attacking you when you declined? I gave you fair warning and everything so it's totally your fault.

The point everyone is making is that RoK's hard line stance was unreasonable and clearly intended to provoke a war. The fact that NSO stood their ground and seemed to take a similarly hard line stance doesn't mean either party deserves to get rolled over it.

This is something that a 10 minute conversation would sort out if both sides were looking for a reasonable diplomatic solution. Clearly that isn't the case here, so it's not really a surprise that this insignificant incident has been blown way out of proportion.
[/quote]

changing color is hardly comparable to aiding a rogue. Just keep grasping at straws.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='FreddieMercury' timestamp='1281316027' post='2405696']
Had RoK been decent at trying to play the PR game, they woulda at least tried with diplomacy, but it's cool. [b]At least it speeds up the CnG-SF split.[/b]
[/quote]

Umm... what?

[shilo]

I am disappointed. This is nothing worth going to war for, rather something to be settled in a day's worth of talks. In which case NSO would get the due process they owe to their newly accepted member, and RoK could defend their protectorate.
But I guess one could skip the whole talking business and do an oldschool curbstomping - the way to show that things definitely have gotten better.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1281313188' post='2405420']
I've been watching NSO beg their allies not to assist them since about 2 minutes after this war was declared. NSO is asking to be allowed to act as a shield and sacrifice themselves so this lot of jerks can't get at their real targets. It's honorable and admirable of them to ask.
[/quote]

Honorable? They have like 5 DoWs on them. They're going to get rolled regardless, they're just trying to make themselves look like martyrs by not asking for help.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

What's so hard to understand about this NSO?

RoK requested that you don't send aid to this nation, and warned you that they would consider it an act of war. So you completely ignore their wishes and send the guy aid anyway because "they didn't have proof". So instead of showing some courtesy and waiting until the proof had been provided you sent him the aid anyway? And now you're complaining about lack of diplomacy? Because I sure as hell don't see any attempts at diplomacy for you.

You couldn't wait for RoK to send you any proof that the guy was a rogue, so why should they wait for you to start negotiations?

[pezstar]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1281316290' post='2405715']
Honorable? They have like 5 DoWs on them. They're going to get rolled regardless, they're just trying to make themselves look like martyrs by not asking for help.
[/quote]

They were talking about doing that before the first DoW even went out. Would you like to try again?

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281316082' post='2405699']
Oh, I understood he believed it to be an act of war, even if I disagreed. I also understand that almost always, "acts of war" do not result in an actual war, especially when the act is so negligible.

They had been informed of our position and ignored it. As they are more powerful, they can get away with that, and I wasn't even really trying to challenge that. I didn't really expect us to get our way, but I did expect some discussion to result. I misjudged, clearly.
[/quote]

Well we're knee deep in it now, I guess.

[Choson]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281315915' post='2405686']
[color="#0000FF"]No, we requested the information several times. We were met with threats and grandstanding from RoK. Heft, then sent the aid. But remember, their denying us the information and their disregard for diplomatic procedure predates any of the aid drama.[/color]
[/quote]

I see no definitive proof of said threats and grandstanding.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='TheThirdMark' timestamp='1281316180' post='2405710']
Blehh why do you have a good answer on my simple questions. You know, hate is hard to reach when someone is diplomatically enough to rethink their words. You should have been in the IRC querry and this shenanigan would have been avoided.

Then again, some acts deserve a war. Though not the way this is turning out.
Kicking a Tiger in the balls is funny. Specially when you havent given the idea about the lose claws a good thought. Though when that tiger brings an entire family the fun is gone, the love is dead.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]It doesn't matter. RoK attacked someone we made clear was being treated as a member until evidence could be provided. It is not an obscene request and as I said, it is one that would usually be granted. But the simple truth is RoK wanted war. There was never a hope for peace at all.[/color]

[Mandolus]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1281316421' post='2405720']
They were talking about doing that before the first DoW even went out. Would you like to try again?
[/quote]

Yes, because no one could have expected everyone to jump on NSO once the first DoW hit!

(This is sarcasm)

[arch3004]

NSO opened the door by aiding a rogue and, instead of RoK talking on the doorstep, they shoved their way in.

I don't see blame completely lying with one side or the other.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='MagicalTrevor' timestamp='1281315808' post='2405677']
You mean a year of political isolation followed by an organised curbstomp over a CB that was requested? Give me a break.

NSO made a mistake, failed to rectify it and are now being attacked, their allies can either choose to let them take the punishment or step up and make it known that they disagree with it by honouring a treaty. Simple as that.
[/quote]
Well, we have the attempted political isolation (I've seen the !@#$ fits in back channels when a SG-web alliance considers a treaty with an "ex-Heg" alliance, it's the same deal as I've seen before), and jumping on the chance to curbstomp when it arises. They're not exact parallels, but it is a pretty decent comparison.

Stupid on NSO's part to hand out any kind of CB when the wolves are circling, though.

[Choson]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281316509' post='2405726']
[color="#0000FF"]It doesn't matter. RoK attacked someone we made clear was being treated as a member until evidence could be provided. It is not an obscene request and as I said, it is one that would usually be granted. But the simple truth is RoK wanted war. There was never a hope for peace at all.[/color]
[/quote]

Because you aided him. If you had waited, there would have been a much higher possibility for peace.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281311727' post='2405249']
Further, they commanded, with no discussion that he would be attacked.
[/quote]
The logs in the DoW say otherwise.

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1281316168' post='2405709']
How does it do that?
[/quote]

I don't think anyone denies that RoK put in about 10% into diplomacy, obviously Hoo was just itching for a fight. Some alliances in CnG actually have a moral spine and believes that with power comes with responsibility and that you shouldn't use it unless you absolutely have to. That's obviously going to affect how some diplomacy will play out in the future (more disliking, distrust, all that good stuff)

[Daeryon]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281315981' post='2405693']
Who's begging?

I'm calling NSO's treaty partners liars and cowards if they don't defend their allies.

Once upon a time there was an alliance called TDSM8 that, in the face of overwhelming odds and a specific request not to enter, abided by the wording of its treaty obligations. I haven't forgotten that. I'm sure many others haven't as well.

It's called honoring one's word. That's all.



I don't see you "gladly and willingly" doing anything, so I don't really need to call you self-serving cowards. You just did that yourself.
[/quote]

You guys are so paper-thin it's funny.

Can the official reason for this war just be changed to "we want to attack NPO"? It'll save us all embarrassing stuff like this.

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='FreddieMercury' timestamp='1281316723' post='2405736']
Some alliances in CnG actually have a moral spine[/quote]

NO THEY DON`T. Stop spreading lies.

[MagicalTrevor]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1281316660' post='2405731']
Well, we have the attempted political isolation (I've seen the !@#$ fits in back channels when a SG-web alliance considers a treaty with an "ex-Heg" alliance, it's the same deal as I've seen before), and jumping on the chance to curbstomp when it arises. They're not exact parallels, but it is a pretty decent comparison.

[/quote]
I'm in(was in, i just stepped down) the majority of those back channels and that's pure !@#$%^&*. You have a severe victim complex and should seek help BW.