Decree of the Sith

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281315104' post='2405609']
[color="#0000FF"]You're leaving out the part where we told RoK to hold on the attacks until we could get this thing investigated. They said they'd get us the logs we requested, and it seemed like they'd wait as well. Imagine my surprise when I log on to see they had sent us no logs, and they also attacked.[/color]
[/quote]
Well it isn't that shocking...they had a chance at triggering a global war, and took it. My guess is they were circling the wagons in back channels, saw a green light, and went for it.

You guys did, after all, hand them a decent CB. Should have been negotiated on their part given the minor nature of the offense (this is a pretty dumb war), but in a climate of boredom like this, you gave them all they needed...

[Balder]

[quote name='Lenny N Karl' timestamp='1281314940' post='2405593']
After years of fingerwagging at NPO for bullying and piling on "meatsheild" allies for every little skirmish, these other alliances jumping into this skirmish sure reeks of hypocrisy to me.
[/quote]

Lenny, given NATO's history I'm honestly speechless you'd call OTHER alliances meat shields.

Also, those sort of comments really don't give you a vote of confidence towards being an unbiased moderator.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Balder

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1281315209' post='2405618']
I, for one, could care less about a larger curbstomp. If NSO feels it is being truely wronged, they can ask for their treaty partners to come in (No, that is not an attempt to goad alliances into declaring in defense). NSO caused this mess, if they want to burn by themselves that is the table they set for themselves.
[/quote]
Then have your curbstomp party and enjoy. It appears NSO is quite willing to burn by themselves, and could very well see more important victories down the road in doing so.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281314758' post='2405585']
I will, however, call NSO's supposed allies self-serving cowards for not defending an alliance they have sworn to defend.
[/quote]

Actually, if NSO were to, hypothetically, come out and say that they did commit an aggressive act that kicked this off, most of their allies would have legitimate grounds to consider this a case where, per the wording of their treaties with NSO, they are simply under an optional clause. About the only one I've been able to find to the contrary so far is, ironically enough, their treaty with NPO, who by all accounts is indeed obligated to enter even if NSO were to acknowledge that their aiding of the guy at the center of this was an offensive action.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Lord Boris

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1281314953' post='2405595']
Perhaps our relationship with allies means alot more to us than your intepretation of treaties. If we recieve a request from an alliance to hold back, then we will consider it, just like any honorouble group would.
[/quote]

Who is honorable, the friend who defends you without question or the one who waits for your cry for help?

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1281315384' post='2405633']
Actually, if NSO were, hypothetically, come out and say that they did commit an aggressive act that kicked this off, most of their allies would have legitimate grounds to consider this a case where, per the wording of their treaties with NSO, are simply under an optional clause. About the only one I've been able to find to the contrary so far is, ironically enough, their treaty with NPO, who by all accounts is indeed obligated to enter even if NSO were to acknowledge that their aiding of the guy at the center of this was an offensive action.
[/quote]

There's a reason short-and-to-the-point treaties aren't always a good idea.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Ashoka the Great

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281315390' post='2405634']
Who is more honorable, the friend who defends you without question or the one who waits for your cry for help?
[/quote]

Silly Zog, honour is whatever NSO says it is.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Eternal Enigma' timestamp='1281311827' post='2405257']
biggest load of bullcrap ive ever seen
[/quote]


[quote name='Eternal Enigma' timestamp='1281312770' post='2405367']
who needs to get rid of you when you'll be too weak to even be even remotely slightly relevant to the rest of the cn world after the tanks have finished rolling
[/quote]


[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281312879' post='2405387']
I doubt very much that the NSO's treaties include a "request for help" clause. Thus I'm going to conclude that any treaty partner not defending the Legion of Brown is led by lying cowards.
[/quote]


[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281313482' post='2405452']
Since I was made aware of all of this by our allies yesterday, I can assure you that this is not an effort to 'target' the NPO. If Pacifica decides to follow the NSO's advice and don a chicken suit, that's entirely up to them.

And, as expected:


The treaty doesn't actually give the NPO an 'out' here. I'm not going to bother reading the NSO's other treaties, but I expect the same applies to those as well.
[/quote]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281313883' post='2405503']
Some statements are really not open to interpretation. You defend your allies or you do not. If there's a clause giving one a reason not to, that's one thing. Otherwise it's just self-serving cowardice not to come to their assistance.


So words only have the meanings that we want them to mean?
[/quote]

OMG just stop. All you do is make yourself look silly. tbh you dont need to beg. I have all my slots open and would be happy to play a round of toss the fire ball with you.


[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281313635' post='2405475']
But I thought peace was a lie?
[/quote]

TypoNinja you know as well as I do camping is a legitimate strategy


[quote name='Eternal Enigma' timestamp='1281314424' post='2405554']
actually i believe how it went was ROK:" sup guise, we ganna roll NSO " allies: "OMG LET US HELP " RoK:" idk guise, we kinda wanna do this solo" allies:" what the heck kind of friend are you. ever heard of sharing? (peer pressure)" RoK:" ok fine, you can roll them too " Allies:" YAAAAAAY"
[/quote]

Oh I'm sure it did, on the playground just after milk and cookies.

edit: quote tag

Edited August 9, 2010 by ironchef

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281314906' post='2405592']
The wars were in response to TENE spying on him. Also, we didn't actually interfere with those wars in anyway, regardless.
[/quote]
sorry but i seem to have missed the exposed spy attack by Tene on him. maybe you could show us a screen of that?
Otherwise maybe you should consider actually screening applicants or as option B maybe get off your high horse when approached about such a problem.

[jer]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281315390' post='2405634']
Who is more honorable, the friend who defends you without question or the one who waits for your cry for help?
[/quote]
Probably the one who actually listens to and respects your wishes instead of ignoring them in favour of something written down on a sheet of paper months ago? I realise this probably screws with the idea of how you thought this would play out, but that's not really my problem.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281315390' post='2405634']
Who is more honorable, the friend who defends you without question or the one who waits for your cry for help?
[/quote]

Oh get over it for heaven's sake. The only idiots buying into this 'they are cowards' thing are the same idiots trying to sell it.

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1281312181' post='2405301']
RoK did not attempt to solve this at all, clearly they had ulterior motives in this declaration. They did not attempt to solve this diplomatically and it was clear they will do all they can to make something out of practically nothing... Hoo dissapears for the rest of the day by coincidence too. Anyone bothered to reflect on Hyperion and the Non-CB war. Oh the irony of it all.

o/ NSO
[/quote]

You must be a spy because you hit the nail right on the head. Seriously.

[TheThirdMark]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281315104' post='2405609']
[color="#0000FF"]You're leaving out the part where we told RoK to hold on the attacks until we could get this thing investigated. They said they'd get us the logs we requested, and it seemed like they'd wait as well. Imagine my surprise when I log on to see they had sent us no logs, and they also attacked.[/color]
[/quote]

Hmn, perhaps somewhere in the line where they wanted to send you that data they found out you were directly aiding a rogue in his assault on said Alliances?

And that they felt it was their time to tell you: We dont care. ?

[Lord Valentine]

Oh god, allies being pragmatic and not just jumping into a war that their main allied party does not want them involved in, and they don't really need to be involved in.

This is LITERALLY the worst thing in the world.

[pezstar]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281314758' post='2405585']
I don't believe the STA is allied to the NSO.

I will, however, call NSO's supposed allies self-serving cowards for not defending an alliance they have sworn to defend.

I am on Planet Bob, a magical place where the phrase "We will defend you" means just that. And people who say it and then sit on their hands are not people who can be trusted.



Clearly.
[/quote]

STA does not have a physical treaty with NSO. STA and NSO have, however, stated dozens of times on these very forums that we don't need one to tie us together, and that we can and will actively defend each other if attacked. It's common knowledge. So now you know. STA stated as recently as 2 weeks ago that we'd gladly and willingly defend NSO if they found themselves under attack. We're one of their allies. Would you care to call STA self-serving cowards now?

Edited August 9, 2010 by pezstar

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281314407' post='2405552']
95% of the time, at least, this would not have resulted in war. Just because something is casually called an "act of war" does not mean that the next step is to declare war. This sort of thing only goes to war if a war is desired, and I believed RoK didn't desire it.

It's plainly wrong to say this was the obvious conclusion of the aid being sent. The obvious conclusion was that further discussion and diplomacy would have resulted, because that's what usually happens in these situations.

I sent the aid because I didn't appreciate us essentially being told to get out of the way without any decent reason, but didn't feel like openly provoking a war. Odd, that.
[/quote]

You must admit that, in fairness to RoK, they couldn't have appreciated the fact that you took in a rogue that they were attacking. I think given that taking in that rogue was an affront to RoK (granted, you may not have known it at the time, which is perfectly forgivable), their asking for a token gesture of respect like not aiding the rogue they were at odds with after you, mistakenly or otherwise, took him in was a fair concession to ask for. I can see why you wouldn't appreciate that, but it would have been a way to make amends between RoK and NSO and keep the peace. We could argue about who should have been the bigger man and let the insult to their alliance go for the sake of peace, but if you have any empathy, I'm sure you can understand why Hoo took this as a challenge to his alliance. I know you didn't think Hoo would react the way he did, that's obvious from the current state of things and your decision not to ask for help, which makes it all the more tragic that it could have been avoided if you'd realized that Hoo meant it when he said he considered it an act of war. A little empathy probably could have avoided all of this.

In any case, the limits of what is a legitimate casus belli, though there may be unwritten conventions on what is taboo and what isn't, should be clearly defined, and I think that's everyone's fault for not getting together and actually agreeing on a set of rules for appropriate conduct as an alliance. If Hoo was legitimately offended, and you legitimately didn't understand why he should be, that's a clear indication that we're working from different social conventions here, and we've got different ideas of what's right and wrong in inter-alliance diplomacy. It may prevent wars like this, but even if it doesn't, it will at least establish who is in the right and who the wrong in some semi-objective sense. I should think it would have, at least, stopped this war from happening.

[Heft]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1281315438' post='2405639']
Silly Zog, honour is whatever NSO says it is.
[/quote]
You are correct.

[MagicalTrevor]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1281315011' post='2405601']
Agreed. Especially considering the events of the No CB War and Hyperion.
[/quote]
You mean a year of political isolation followed by an organised curbstomp over a CB that was requested? Give me a break.

NSO made a mistake, failed to rectify it and are now being attacked, their allies can either choose to let them take the punishment or step up and make it known that they disagree with it by honouring a treaty. Simple as that.

[Tiberius]

Why can't people just sign ODP's if they want to be optional about going to war. It would also spice up this game too.

[Eden Taylor]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1281315722' post='2405667']
STA does not have a physical treaty with NSO. STA and NSO have, however, stated dozens of times on these very forums that we don't need one to tie us together, and that we can and will actively defend each other if attacked. It's common knowledge. So now you know. STA stated as recently as 2 weeks ago that we'd gladly and willingly defend NSO if they found themselves under attack. We're one of their allies. Would you care to call STA self-serving cowards now?
[/quote]

So STA is going paperless? Or is NSO?

[Choson]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281313667' post='2405481']
No. We're taking this like men, for our foes are cowards.
[/quote]

Real men go into peace mode?

[quote name='World English Dictionary']
coward (ˈkaʊəd)

— n

a person who shrinks from or avoids danger, pain, or difficulty[/quote]

[Lord Valentine]

I believe that every alliance should get involved in every war that ever happens in the name of honour, and ignore the wishes of their allies and the good of their alliance.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='TheThirdMark' timestamp='1281315674' post='2405661']
Hmn, perhaps somewhere in the line where they wanted to send you that data they found out you were directly aiding a rogue in his assault on said Alliances?

And that they felt it was their time to tell you: We dont care. ?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]No, we requested the information several times. We were met with threats and grandstanding from RoK. Heft, then sent the aid. But remember, their denying us the information and their disregard for diplomatic procedure predates any of the aid drama.[/color]

[pezstar]

[quote name='Eden Taylor' timestamp='1281315868' post='2405682']
So STA is going paperless? Or is NSO?
[/quote]

Neither of the above.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1281315447' post='2405641']
OMG just stop. All you do is make yourself look silly. tbh you dont need to beg. I have all my slots open and would be happy to play a round of toss the fire ball with you.[/quote]

Who's begging?

I'm calling NSO's treaty partners liars and cowards if they don't defend their allies.

Once upon a time there was an alliance called TDSM8 that, in the face of overwhelming odds and a specific request not to enter, abided by the wording of its treaty obligations. I haven't forgotten that. I'm sure many others haven't as well.

It's called honoring one's word. That's all.

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1281315722' post='2405667']STA does not have a physical treaty with NSO. STA and NSO have, however, stated dozens of times on these very forums that we don't need one to tie us together, and that we can and will actively defend each other if attacked. It's common knowledge. So now you know. STA stated as recently as 2 weeks ago that we'd gladly and willingly defend NSO if they found themselves under attack. We're one of their allies. Would you care to call STA self-serving cowards now?[/quote]

I don't see you "gladly and willingly" doing anything, so I don't really need to call you self-serving cowards. You just did that yourself.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Ashoka the Great

[FreddieMercury]

If NSO had gotten screenshots of the alleged spying, I would say NSO was completely in the right here (though I doubt that was the case). But unfortunately Heft forgot they can't operate with the same smugness that they did when they were in Frostbite and barked up the wrong tree. I mean it's RoK for Christ sakes, you know the alliance that started the blueballs thing?

Had RoK been decent at trying to play the PR game, they woulda at least tried with diplomacy, but it's cool. At least it speeds up the CnG-SF split.