Decree of the Sith

[Heft]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281318186' post='2405837']
I have now seen this said a multitude of times, and it is mind-boggling to me. If the aid had been sent immediately upon his entrance into NSO, before RoK had spoken to NSO about it, I would agree. There would be a diplomatic solution.The aid was sent to this nation, in the midst of war with RoK. It was sent AFTER NSO knew of his involvement in a rogue war. It was sent AFTER they were fairly warned(and rightly so, I might add) that aiding said nation would constitute and act of war. After ALL of this was known... NSO aided him. Seriously... it is AMAZING to me, that ANY of you can defend this action. It is amazing to me that ANY of you can say AFTER the aid was sent that "this could be solved diplomatically." You do not attempt to solve something diplomatically by being undiplomatic about it. The $6 million he was sent would have been much better used as rebuild aid following his single ZI. Instead, the Sith chose to help this nation inflict more military damage on RoK and its protectorate. Someone explain to me when, in the course of CN, this became "diplomatic". I missed that memo.

Solid CB is solid. No amount of NSO martyrdom will change that.
[/quote]
Sending the aid may not have been the most polite response, but it was the response that struck me as being most in line with how RoK had treated us up to that point. I have a hard time being polite with people who jerk us around.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281316951' post='2405754']
It takes two to tango, bucko.



We asked RoK For further clarification and information prior to attacks. They commenced anyway, at which point aid was sent. Looks like RoK completely ignored NSO's requests.
[/quote]


What was there to clarify? The war screens pretty much said it all. He attacked TENE, not vice-versa. The clarification was there in black and white. Hoo gave you all the info that SHOULD have been needed. Obviously there was an issue between TENE and this guy. As the bickering was going on, a nation in TENE was spied 2 times. In response, this nation as well was spied. While it is indeed POSSIBLE it was a coincidence, like I said, neither of us came to Digiterra yesterday, it is certainly not LIKELY there was a coincidence. Even still, TENE did NOT attack him. He attacked them. Case flipping closed.

[rodrod]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281317931' post='2405818']
Haha yeah, they sure did a good job of that. Apart from that bit where they blatantly ignored a simple request of another alliance and were warned about what would happen if they did send him aid. Instead of waiting patiently for proof before deciding to aid the guy, they went ahead and did it anyway.

It really is their own fault.
[/quote]
Waiting patiently? They sent a member 6 million because he was in 2 wars. They had no proof he was a rouge, so really all they did was aid a member. Also, from the posts I've seen here, whether or not RoK was going to give the proof NSO wanted before declaring is debatable. It's their fault for sending aid to a member, and RoK could have very well replied to that diplomaticly instead of posting a DoW less than 24 hours later. Next time try to think about the situation before you start babbling.

[Arcades057]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281318239' post='2405841']
Oh, I was under the impression that it was a good idea to tell your allies "Oh hey we're going to war" before riding to war. Silly me huh? And you don't understand this whole, Mutual Aggression clause either?


and VE have an MDAP with GOD too. Now these treaties mean that if one of these alliances goto war, they all have to goto war. What are you finding hard to understand about this?




[img]http://www.wiretotheear.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/scratched_record.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Cute of you.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Kevlar' timestamp='1281318315' post='2405850']


Did they lose it?

-Kev
[/quote]

Did they even ask for it in the first place?

[Cairna]

Why are superfriends trying to draw CD into a war? This is OUTRAGEOUS and I will not be party to it.

Bad vikings!

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281318239' post='2405841']
Oh, I was under the impression that it was a good idea to tell your allies "Oh hey we're going to war" before riding to war. Silly me huh? And you don't understand this whole, Mutual Aggression clause either?


and VE have an MDAP with GOD too. Now these treaties mean that if one of these alliances goto war, they all have to goto war. What are you finding hard to understand about this?
[/quote]

Go read the treaty. Go read what you said. Now look back. You'll see a series of mistakes you said.

1. SF being a reason all GOD's allies must ride to war
2. SF being a reason God went to war
3. "SF is MADP"

It's really quite brilliant how you're trying to pull me down to your intelligence level, unfortunately, it's not humanly possible to drag someone down that far. Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying GOD's allies shouldn't have gone to war, I'm saying GOD shouldn't have started a war and then called their allies in.

How can you not understand that? Yet you somehow see me as arguing that I'm arguing that their allies are entering on no treaty clause.

Get it through your freaking thick head. Three posts later and you're still none the wiser.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1281312711' post='2405361']
Um, no. NSO messed up and they are at the core for paying for their grandstanding in this situation. Likewise, given certain precedence, just because you request that your allies not enter doesn't mean they still hold a moral obligation, one example being USN jumping in with CSN during the 1V-GATO War despite abhorrently uneven odds.
[/quote][quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1281313033' post='2405401']
Has everyone just accepted the fact that no one is going to help NSO? Wow, that`s quite telling.
[/quote][quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281313883' post='2405503']
Some statements are really not open to interpretation. You defend your allies or you do not. If there's a clause giving one a reason not to, that's one thing. Otherwise it's just self-serving cowardice not to come to their assistance.
So words only have the meanings that we want them to mean?
[/quote]

Nice try calling out allies for not joining in. You all look like complete fools.

Just say it! You want the NPO to come out and play. You are all going to be disappointed.

[Daeryon]

[quote name='Arcades057' timestamp='1281318222' post='2405839']
Well hey, I for one am glad that the "karma" war brought an end to the curbstomp wars here. 639 vs 168 is in no way a curbstomp.

(said with so much tongue in cheek that I'm spraining something)
[/quote]

Yeah boy that war really changed things here on Bob.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281314712' post='2405580']
I did a little NSO board trawling.

Sedrick's War Screen
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Sedrick1.png[/img]

Sedricks Application to NSO
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Sedrick2.png[/img]

Clearly those two offensive wars were defensive. Logically, he's good.

Way to go, NSO.
[/quote]

My mind asplode.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='rodrod' timestamp='1281318463' post='2405864']
Waiting patiently? [b]They sent a member 6 million because he was in 2 wars.[/b] [u]They had no proof he was a rouge,[/u] so really all they did was aid a member. Also, from the posts I've seen here, whether or not RoK was going to give the proof NSO wanted before declaring is debatable. It's their fault for sending aid to a member, and RoK could have very well replied to that diplomaticly instead of posting a DoW less than 24 hours later. Next time try to think about the situation before you start babbling.
[/quote]

Read the underlined bit first, then the second bit. I'm not going to babyfeed this to you.

[Dochartaigh]

Wow is all i can say about this war. I am all for a good fight but this is just pathetic. RoK and TENE already outnumbered NSO, there was no need for 3 other alliances to jump in. As for the reasons for this war, both sides are clearly at fault. RoK should have handled it much better by offering actual proof instead of just demanding crap, that is just plain pathetic. NSO, should not have aided the nation either.

The main reason for this war is not some rogue, it is clearly an attempt to pull in NSO's allies in order to stomp them some more. glad to see such actions stopped with Karma and the downfall of NPO/co.... all those that keep stating how different and so much better SG are, this shows that SF is pretty much just like the old Heg. Ya'll can whine and cry and !@#$%* and moan about how you are different but please, negating a terms such as viceroy (banned by admin to my knowledge) and no disbandments caused directly by war, only makes you slightly better. This war is pathetic and if SF were so much better than NPO/Co, this war would not be going on at least on the scale it is. RoK/TENE would have hit alone without any outside help since it is not necessary. The outside help shows with clear intention that SF is simply trying to escalate this war in order to stomp on NSO's allies, which so happen to be alliances like NPO, IRON, and TOP. heh.

[Arcades057]

[quote name='Daeryon' timestamp='1281318597' post='2405875']
Yeah boy that war really changed things here on Bob.

[/quote]

In a way it did. Instead of the velvet glove of "hegemony" rule we have the... I don't know, the stained clown glove of MK and other also-rans united in being just relevant enough to maintain control, while not relevant enough to be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain cell kicking around in their heads. But I guess they're playing to their audience.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281318424' post='2405859']
Sending the aid may not have been the most polite response, but it was the response that struck me as being most in line with how RoK had treated us up to that point. I have a hard time being polite with people who jerk us around.
[/quote]

And this is the response we feel is appropriate to your response. But I don't expect the BAAAAAAAAAAAAAW to stop.

[Hakim]

So this sedrick guy joins and posts on NSO forums Saturday at 627 pm...less than 24 hours later War is declared...someone try and tell me this wasn't:

A. a setup intended to cause war
B. akin to Krushchev taking off his shoe and slamming it on the podium
C. Just a complete failure at diplomacy, seen only in the newest untrained alliances

I mean seriously, the point is not who was right or wrong or what should have been done, but that leaders failed at the critical moment in any disagreement.

edit: time wrong

Edited August 9, 2010 by Hakim

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281318186' post='2405837']
I have now seen this said a multitude of times, and it is mind-boggling to me. If the aid had been sent immediately upon his entrance into NSO, before RoK had spoken to NSO about it, I would agree. There would be a diplomatic solution.The aid was sent to this nation, in the midst of war with RoK. It was sent AFTER NSO knew of his involvement in a rogue war. It was sent AFTER they were fairly warned(and rightly so, I might add) that aiding said nation would constitute and act of war. After ALL of this was known... NSO aided him. Seriously... it is AMAZING to me, that ANY of you can defend this action. It is amazing to me that ANY of you can say AFTER the aid was sent that "this could be solved diplomatically." You do not attempt to solve something diplomatically by being undiplomatic about it. The $6 million he was sent would have been much better used as rebuild aid following his single ZI. Instead, the Sith chose to help this nation inflict more military damage on RoK and its protectorate. Someone explain to me when, in the course of CN, this became "diplomatic". I missed that memo.

Solid CB is solid. No amount of NSO martyrdom will change that.
[/quote]

And if RoK had provided NSO with the further information requested, there would be no qualms from this end.

[rodrod]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281318655' post='2405881']
Read the underlined bit first, then the second bit. I'm not going to babyfeed this to you.
[/quote]
First of all, he could have just been raiding someone, not necessarily a rogue. 2 wars dosen't mean "ZOMG THIS GUY WENT ROUGE ON THAT ALLIANCE, HE'S TOTALLY EVIL AND WE SHOULD GIVE ROK OUR MEMBER TO ZI" There could have been a valid reason behind hid wars, and NSO kicking a member out without learning the situation and getting more information would prove them to be the alliance everyone says they are.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281318655' post='2405881']
Read the underlined bit first, then the second bit. I'm not going to babyfeed this to you.
[/quote]

Being at war means you're a rogue?

You just blew my mind. Maybe Rodrod has to babyfeed you, since he assumed you knew that being at war doesn't automatically make you a rogue.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1281318551' post='2405872']
Go read the treaty. Go read what you said. Now look back. You'll see a series of mistakes you said.

1. SF being a reason all GOD's allies must ride to war
2. SF being a reason God went to war
3. "SF is MADP"

It's really quite brilliant how you're trying to pull me down to your intelligence level, unfortunately, it's not humanly possible to drag someone down that far. Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying GOD's allies shouldn't have gone to war, I'm saying GOD shouldn't have started a war and then called their allies in.

How can you not understand that? Yet you somehow see me as arguing that I'm arguing that their allies are entering on no treaty clause.

Get it through your freaking thick head. Three posts later and you're still none the wiser.
[/quote]

You seem to have trouble remembering who started this war in the first place let alone trying to form a coherent argument. I'm done with you.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281318851' post='2405899']
You seem to have trouble remembering who started this war in the first place let alone trying to form a coherent argument. I'm done with you.
[/quote]

Last I checked, Ragnarok and their allies declared war. You're done with me though? I guess burying your head inside a small hole works best for you.

I guess I'll just have to argue with a wall now, hopefully I'll be able to discern between the intelligence level of it and you.

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1281318551' post='2405872']
Go read the treaty. Go read what you said. Now look back. You'll see a series of mistakes you said.

1. SF being a reason all GOD's allies must ride to war
2. SF being a reason God went to war
3. "SF is MADP"

It's really quite brilliant how you're trying to pull me down to your intelligence level, unfortunately, it's not humanly possible to drag someone down that far. Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying GOD's allies shouldn't have gone to war, I'm saying GOD shouldn't have started a war and then called their allies in.

How can you not understand that? Yet you somehow see me as arguing that I'm arguing that their allies are entering on no treaty clause.

Get it through your freaking thick head. Three posts later and you're still none the wiser.
[/quote]

Burnt

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='rodrod' timestamp='1281318820' post='2405896']
First of all, he could have just been raiding someone, not necessarily a rogue. 2 wars dosen't mean "ZOMG THIS GUY WENT ROUGE ON THAT ALLIANCE, HE'S TOTALLY EVIL AND WE SHOULD GIVE ROK OUR MEMBER TO ZI" There could have been a valid reason behind hid wars, and NSO kicking a member out without learning the situation and getting more information would prove them to be the alliance everyone says they are.
[/quote]

And there might not have been a valid reason behind his wars, but NSO completely ignored this. Instead of doing what every competent alliance does when they have an applicant who is at war(Especially when that exact same applicant is considered to be a rogue nation by RoK) they went ahead and accepted him and sent him aid when explicitly told "this guy is a rogue, don't aid him we will consider it an act of war if you do" This is effectively NSO saying "pfft do something about it"

It's not difficult.

[Kevlar]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281318474' post='2405869']
Did they even ask for it in the first place?
[/quote]
It does seem odd that they would be waiting for something they never asked for, though. Your confusion is certainly understandable.

-Kev

[Whitney]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281318424' post='2405859']
Sending the aid may not have been the most polite response, but it was the response that struck me as being most in line with how RoK had treated us up to that point. I have a hard time being polite with people who jerk us around.
[/quote]

"They are willing to go to war with us over this? How rude. I'll be rude back and send Sedrick some aid."

[Choson]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281318812' post='2405895']
And if RoK had provided NSO with the further information requested, there would be no qualms from this end.
[/quote]

And yet your alliance jumped the gun and aided the nation in question.