Decree of the Sith

[revan09]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281314712' post='2405580']
I did a little NSO board trawling.

Sedrick's War Screen
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Sedrick1.png[/img]

Sedricks Application to NSO
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Sedrick2.png[/img]

Clearly those two offensive wars were defensive. Logically, he's good.

Way to go, NSO.
[/quote]

A picture is worth a thousand words

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='GiuseppeG' timestamp='1281320038' post='2405989']
YES! But of course! Speaking the truth is arrogant because you cant face it?
[/quote]

No, you're arrogant because he said so.

Ironic, right?

[The Reccesion]

TENE and RoK wasn't enough?? HAHAHAHAHA

May the force be with you.

o/Sith

[GiuseppeG]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1281320088' post='2405991']
No, you're arrogant because he said so.

Ironic, right?
[/quote]

Well, he is God.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='GiuseppeG' timestamp='1281320164' post='2406001']
Well, he is God.
[/quote]

Who else would possess such intelligence and wisdom over us groundlings? I mean, just look at the coherence of his arguments. Simply astounding!

[rodrod]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319866' post='2405974']
If you're going to be arrogant and constantly ignore peoples wishes because you're under the impression the wolrd revolves around you, don't be surprised when people just decide they're tired of your !@#$.
[/quote]
Arrogance isn't always a bad thing first of all. If NSO can back themselves up politiclly or militarily then arrogance is warranted. And so NSO acts a little cocky, can you blame them? Their Sith, and their founder is the founder of all of the orders. Can't really blame them for being arrogant looking at their history. And getting tired of their "!@#$" isn't a valid CB. Sorry, try again.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='rodrod' timestamp='1281320249' post='2406007']
Arrogance isn't always a bad thing first of all. If NSO can back themselves up politiclly or militarily then arrogance is warranted. And so NSO acts a little cocky, can you blame them? Their Sith, and their founder is the founder of all of the orders. Can't really blame them for being arrogant looking at their history. And getting tired of their "!@#$" isn't a valid CB. Sorry, try again.
[/quote]

Heh, yeah I guess you're right after all :}

Edited August 9, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Duncan King]

Well, Lint, you got home and the kids burned the house down.

I sincerely hope I don't have to get involved in this because

a) This is stupid. A full scale war over one nation? Grow up guys.

b) I quite frankly don't like NSO.

One of Hoo's toadies must have convinced him to try to push this into a big war. He's usually more reasonable. Rok, have you been taking diplomacy lessons from Athens?

[PrinceArutha]

Best of luck to my friends in the NSO. Seems like this has been poorly handled in ways by both parties so I refuse to pick a side. more diplomacy on both parties sides could have been used but it wasnt. What is done is done. Best of luck NSO.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281319980' post='2405985']
[IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/broken-record.png[/IMG]

Go ahead and read [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90345&view=findpost&p=2404925"]those logs[/url]. Let me know what proof you're looking for. It seems there was enough discussion to warrant NSO not aiding him.
[/quote]

the simple proof that the member actually spied first and threatened war first. Hoo's word means nothing when it is clear he is biased, much like Heft's word where he stated TENE spied first and threatened war first obviously meant nothing since it lacked any proof.

so, you can use cute little pictures all you want but fact is, no ACTUAL PROOF was ever presented by either side in this matter. which again, makes both sides stupid and seemingly far more incompetent than they actually are. Thus, it is quite clear that both sides were looking for a war, only one side though could get the war it wanted and it so happened to be SF.

now SF is attempting to escalate this war far beyond where it should have stayed simply because it can attempt to do so. Either NSO gets crushed and most likely either stays at war or faces harsh reps which we have seen before. or NSO's allies ignore NSO's wish to keep them out and all of them get crushed once again and most likely faces harsh reps again.

you can attempt to deflect all you want, but it is straight up fact that no real proof was ever given, other than Hoo stating something is true.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319975' post='2405984']
I'm sure you did ask. Allow me to reword it:

Did you ask for proof before or after RoK told you he was a rogue and you went ahead and aided him anyway?
[/quote]

We asked them for proof after we were told that he was a rogue. We asked them before we aided him. And then afterwards. To be honest, we were legitimately about to man up and kick Sed because Hoo finally gave us the proof after we aided him. But then we found out that RoK already made the decision to declare war on us; right after they provided us with the proof. There was no room to negotiate.

But I don't mind. I'm sure we would've done the same given how much we hate you guys. SF probably hates us just as much to declare over something this dumb.

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='rodrod' timestamp='1281319407' post='2405935']
This just show how small your intelligence level is. RoK also ignored a very important part of the whole situation, that thing called [i]diplomacy[/i]. Seriously, a DoW less than 24 hours later is a bit ridiculous. Someone could have said, "You sent that guy aid, we told you not too, wtf dude, here's your proof" If NSO is the alliance they proved to me they where in this thread then they would have backed down and probably given RoK some reps for sending the aid. But no, you have to skip the part everyone else does because you where dealing with an alliance you didn't like. That's class right thar.
[/quote]
Did you miss where the diplomacy started? The whole thing where Rok told NSO about the rogue, and then after being told it would be an act of war to aid him...did so. Why should Rok try diplomacy further when NSO essentially spit at them.

[Kevlar]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1281319629' post='2405954']
No, they said that attacks would commence if you aided him. If you didn't aid him, RoK wouldn't have attacked. It's not that difficult to understand.
[/quote]
It is from a logical standpoint. Denying the antecedent isn't quite a sound argumentative strategy.

-Kev

[Bernkastel]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1281320383' post='2406015']
...
a) This is stupid. A full scale war over one nation? Grow up guys.
...
[/quote]

I find myself agreeing with this. I'm just jealous it wasn't me. This rogue nation guy is lucky.

[CRexx]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1281320484' post='2406022']
Did you miss where the diplomacy started? The whole thing where Rok told NSO about the rogue, and then after being told it would be an act of war to aid him...did so. Why should Rok try diplomacy further when NSO essentially spit at them.
[/quote]

Diplomacy is not:

1. Having two war slots open with an AA (RoK in offensive vs a guy wearing NSO colors)
and
2. Telling the NSO what it can and cannot do with its internal aid movements.

That's not diplomacy. Charitably that's gunboat diplomacy, or from a less pleasant view that's a violation of the NSO's sovereignty.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1281320484' post='2406022']
Did you miss where the diplomacy started? The whole thing where Rok told NSO about the rogue, and then after being told it would be an act of war to aid him...did so. Why should Rok try diplomacy further when NSO essentially spit at them.
[/quote]

did you miss the fact that RoK never provided proof whatsoever to back up their claims. the first thing after Hoo stated that Sed was a rogue should have been all the proof that he was a rogue. not threats. not demands. that is not diplomacy at least by the standards i thought was supposed to be standards nowadays. i do recall several nations once held those standards of diplomacy, it seems that Karma kinda beat that out of them.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1281320484' post='2406022']
Did you miss where the diplomacy started? The whole thing where Rok told NSO about the rogue, and then after being told it would be an act of war to aid him...did so. Why should Rok try diplomacy further when NSO essentially spit at them.
[/quote]

Actually sir, this is where it all started:

[quote]
[23:29] <Rampage3> Sedrick spied first, threatened our protectorate, rage quit, impersonated a FARK member, ghosted MHA, then attacked our protectorate
[23:29] <Rampage3> In that order.
01[23:30] <Rebel_Virginia> Do you have proof of the the first three?
01[23:30] <Rebel_Virginia> I'm going to need proof.
01[23:30] <Rebel_Virginia> You see, I simply just cannot take your word for it.
[23:32] <Rampage3> One question...how do you assume that any spying was sanctioned by TENE gov in any case?
01[23:33] <Rebel_Virginia> A message to this nation was sent informing him that TENE was ready to attack.
01[23:33] <Rebel_Virginia> It is only logical to assume that the spying was therefore sanctioned.
01[23:33] <Rebel_Virginia> Now, what bearing does this have on whether or not you will disclose to us information that we need to see in order to resolve this?
[23:35] <Rampage3> what message was that?
[23:36] <Rampage3> Rebel_Virginia A message to this nation was sent informing him that TENE was ready to attack <<<-who sent that and when
01[23:36] <Rebel_Virginia> I do not know.
01[23:36] <Rebel_Virginia> However, Sedrick is a member. We will take his word.
01[23:36] <Rebel_Virginia> Either way, it is irrelevant.
[23:36] <Rampage3> Then you cannot prove at all that the spying was sanctioned.
01[23:36] <Rebel_Virginia> You have information. Will you share it or will you not?
01[23:37] <Rebel_Virginia> We've been quite upfront, telling you all that we know. Is it too much to ask the same courtesy from you?
01[23:39] <Rebel_Virginia> Mr. Rampage3, I do not have all night.
01[23:44] <Rebel_Virginia> Anyway, if you are wondering, we had no reason to ask Sedrick for any screenshots of the messages.
[23:44] <Rampage3> No problem...have a good night.
[/quote]

NSO was then expecting further information. Instead, we received the ultimatum that RoK would be attacking this fella whether or not we cared and that aiding would be considered an act of war.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Kortal' timestamp='1281312437' post='2405331']
I think I speak for all of CN here when I say I don't really care for RoK and that their cb is flimsier than most, but I dislike a handful of people who may or may not still be in the NSO more and thus support this war of aggression.
[/quote]

I speak for all of the STA when I ask why you claim to speak on the behalf of all of CN but cannot identify your own alliance correctly while doing so?

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281320482' post='2406021']
We asked them for proof after we were told that he was a rogue. We asked them before we aided him. And then afterwards. To be honest, we were legitimately about to man up and kick Sed because Hoo finally gave us the proof after we aided him. But then we found out that RoK already made the decision to declare war on us; right after they provided us with the proof. There was no room to negotiate.

But I don't mind. I'm sure we would've done the same given how much we hate you guys. SF probably hates us just as much to declare over something this dumb.
[/quote]


At least you're being honest about what you'd do. But you could have waited for the proof before sending him aid, didn't the thought occur to you that it might have been a good idea to hold on sending him aid, because it might turn out that he's actually a rogue and you would have wasted 6m and pissed off another alliance with your "do as we please, the world needs us, the world revolves around us" attitude?

Just a little foresight would have been good.

[Kahnite]

[img]http://knowyourmeme.com/i/6515/original/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg?1248715819[/img]
This could have been handled better by both sides.

[Whitney]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1281320407' post='2406017']
Hoo's word means nothing when it is clear he is biased, much like Heft's word where he stated TENE spied first and threatened war first obviously meant nothing since it lacked any proof.
[/quote]

If both sides are biased and wrong, why are you siding with one?

From what I see, Sedrick threatened war and "spied" first. From what I gather, TENE threatened back. Sedrick decided to test out the war feature. All went to hell. He attempts to join NSO, yahta yahta yahta.

Couldn't this all been avoided if NSO said, "Oh. Well, we won't send him aid"?

and I'd rather not hear "Well, ROK shouldn't have done this or that." That's not what I asked you. I'm asking you if this would have been avoided if NSO had not sent the guy aid after ROK told them they would declare war if NSO sent him aid.

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]Yes, Lint would be correct. I approached Rampage two hours before Heft and Hoo spoke. In my chat I made it clear that the NSO wished to see this resolved without incident, but asked that RoK keep us informed and provide us with the evidence we needed before doing anything to Sedrick. Ramage3 gave the impression that I would be have received the logs in my inbox by the time I checked in the next morning. So I left for the night, and came back at update for a routine check before bed. Imagine my surprise when it I discovered what had blown over. I won't say we're not without fault, but RoK is not without its fair share of the blame, and they were also being difficult from the start. We never wanted it to come to this, and had RoK simply given us the information when we asked for it none of this ever would have happened.[/color]

[Tromp]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281314712' post='2405580']
I did a little NSO board trawling.

Sedrick's War Screen
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Sedrick1.png[/img]

Sedricks Application to NSO
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/Sedrick2.png[/img]

Clearly those two offensive wars were defensive. Logically, he's good.

Way to go, NSO.
[/quote]
Haha, oh wow. Good catch!

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281320801' post='2406044']
At least you're being honest about what you'd do. But you could have waited for the proof before sending him aid, didn't the thought occur to you that it might have been a good idea to hold on sending him aid, because it might turn out that he's actually a rogue and you would have wasted 6m and pissed off another alliance with your "do as we please, the world needs us, the world revolves around us" attitude?

Just a little foresight would have been good.
[/quote]

I'm going to be honest here, and I don't want to ostracize Heft: we were legitimately going to admit to our mistake of sending War Aid. RV even told Hoo this in a query last night. We also had plans to negotiate with RoK. These plans involved kicking Sed out. This is because Hoo finally gave us the proof that we sought for. So basically, we were going to admit that we dropped the ball on this one and were willing to vie for a continuance of peace. But when we came in today, we heard that Hoo already gave the orders last night to go to war on us. So you seem, we were given no wiggle room.

Which is also fine because I would've done the same. Drop the boot on those you hate; show them no mercy. But I wouldn't be hiding under some stupid CB like this. "I would come out and say that we are declaring war because we dislike you. We are using this event as a pretense for such war." And then let the hate flow. I like to be honest about most things because they tend to make things more fun.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281320935' post='2406050']
If both sides are biased and wrong, why are you siding with one?

From what I see, Sedrick threatened war and "spied" first. From what I gather, TENE threatened back. Sedrick decided to test out the war feature. All went to hell. He attempts to join NSO, yahta yahta yahta.

Couldn't this all been avoided if NSO said, "Oh. Well, we won't send him aid"?

and I'd rather not hear "Well, ROK shouldn't have done this or that." That's not what I asked you. I'm asking you if this would have been avoided if NSO had not sent the guy aid after ROK told them they would declare war if NSO sent him aid.
[/quote]

actually i would not have said anything had it been kept to RoK/TENE declaring war. instead we have VE, GOD, and RnR (nice of them to hit an ally of their ally IRON...) declaring war. given the weak $@! and utterly pathetic CB RoK actually had, it was bad enough they hit, but hey both sides $%&@ed up royally so c'est la vie. but for 3 other alliances to jump in is just so 2007 it is ridiculous and now the whole war deserves to be called out for it.

this could all have been avoided had NSO not accepted Sedrick in the first place. it could all have been avoided had RoK done what any sensible alliance would have done and provided proof immediately, without any need for requesting by NSO. it could have been avoided by NSO not being stupid and aiding their member. it could have been avoided by RoK stating that NSO could send reps on behalf of Sedrick. it could have been avoided had RoK waited for NSO to respond after finally giving them the proof they had asked for at the beginning.

do you see how 3 out of 5 of those avoidance procedures all originate with RoK? so, the blame is pretty much equal with slightly more from RoK. the whole attitude of Hoo was one of a bully trying to pick on someone weaker than himself. so i guess had Hoo not acted like a giant !@#$%^&, this war could have been avoided. so make that 3 out of 6.