NPO Annoucement: 2nd Triannual Report of the 6th Year of Order

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Letum' date='06 May 2010 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1273187777' post='2289444']
No man goes through his life without making his failures, nor does that mean that he does not also manage to succeed. You know that well, but your prejudices somehow incite you to doggedly - and irrationally trying to establish just such false blanket analogies.

You will find that the Order has had plenty of civility in its past. It was the civility with which they treated me when I was one of their biggest enemies that was a factor in drawing me to them in the first place.
[/quote]
Most alliances are civil most of the time. Your return to the political scene will not mark a notable degree of civility.

[quote name='Llednar Twem' date='06 May 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1273191483' post='2289502']
I just find it hilarious that despite this massive war which was supposed to "teach us a lesson and make us pay for what we did", people still like to bring up things that are... how old now?

I am going to make this as clear as I possibly can: Get over it and move on. As long as people hold grudges, we will never move forward, and we will always bring up the past.
[/quote]
I will not forget your past actions while you try to ignore them. Furthermore, I did not fight in the Karma war to make you pay for what you did, or not primarily for that purpose. I, and many like myself, fought to end the threat you posed to my alliance and my friends. Giving you the faintest taste of your own medicine was icing on the cake.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Llednar Twem]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='06 May 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1273194358' post='2289544']
I will not forget your past actions while you try to ignore them.
[/quote]

I am not ignoring them. I am quite aware of our history. I have even been present for a large portion of it. Bringing up and dwelling in the past will never change it; it is what it is. The only thing you can do is learn from it and move on.

[quote]Furthermore, I did not fight in the Karma war to make you pay for what you did, or not primarily for that purpose. I, and many like myself, fought to end the threat you posed to my alliance and my friends. Giving you the faintest taste of your own medicine was icing on the cake. [/quote]

Fair enough.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Llednar Twem

[Cortath]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='06 May 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1273181825' post='2289335']
Did NPO ever state that they felt the need to pay for past mistakes, or is the general consensus still that their actions were right/necessary?
[/quote]

I'm sure people will parse my words, but since people seem to think that it needs to come from straight from the blackbird's beak:

The New Pacific Order has not (nor ever) sat idly by since April 20 of last year. We have examined the past and begun to forge our future. We have seen where we made mistakes and we have seen our victories. Do we think we needed to pay the harshest reparations the world has ever seen? No, of course not, and you won't find a Pacifican who thinks so. Does that mean we think everything our alliance has ever done was right and just? Of course not. We are not perfect. Francoism stands for the tenet that we all are but men, and though we simply unite our sovereignty in one person, we engage in the far more difficult task of uniting our wisdom in one person, and it is a task that is never complete.

[edit sp]

Edited May 7, 2010 by Cortath

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Cortath' date='06 May 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1273194550' post='2289547']
I'm sure people will parse my words, but since people seem to think that it needs to come from straight from the blackbird's beak:

The New Pacific Order has not (nor ever) sat idly by since April 20 of last year. We have examined the past and begun to forge our future. We have seen where we made mistakes and we have seen our victories. Do we think we needed to pay the harshest reparations the world has ever seen? No, of course not, and you won't find a Pacifican who thinks so. Does that mean we think everything our alliance has ever done was right and just? Of course not. We are not perfect. Francoism stands for the tenant that we are all but men, and though we simply unite our sovereignty in one person, we engage in the far more difficult task of uniting our wisdom in one person, and it is a task that is never complete.
[/quote]
I thank you for your reply, and I agree that not even Pacifica deserved to pay the harshest reps to date. I wasn't in negotiations back then, but I voiced my approval when your alliance wasn't formed to disband, and government members barred from ever holding office in another alliance. Terms like that should never see the light of day again.

[Lord Brendan]

Just out of curiosity, who if not Pacifica deserves to pay the highest reparations ever? (I realize that's not exactly what you said)

[Cortath]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='06 May 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1273195310' post='2289559']
Just out of curiosity, who if not Pacifica deserves to pay the highest reparations ever? (I realize that's not exactly what you said)
[/quote]

I don't care to answer speculative questions of the past. I'm not in this gig to write history; I intend to write the future.

[alyster]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='07 May 2010 - 04:13 AM' timestamp='1273194786' post='2289552']
I thank you for your reply, and I agree that not even Pacifica deserved to pay the harshest reps to date.
[/quote]


Says our long time ally and suporter I wonder how big the reps for you have to be compared to IRON

Edit: I also wonder who's the next alliance you backstab?

Edited May 7, 2010 by alyster

[jimbacher]

[quote name='alyster' date='06 May 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1273199352' post='2289620']
Says our long time ally and suporter I wonder how big the reps for you have to be compared to IRON

Edit: I also wonder who's the next alliance you backstab?
[/quote]

I don't think you really want an answer to that question do you?

[Penkala]

[quote name='alyster' date='06 May 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1273199352' post='2289620']
Says our long time ally and suporter I wonder how big the reps for you have to be compared to IRON

Edit: I also wonder who's the next alliance you backstab?
[/quote]

Says the alliance who has probably backstabbed more often than any other....

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='alyster' date='06 May 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1273199352' post='2289620']
Says our long time ally and suporter I wonder how big the reps for you have to be compared to IRON

Edit: I also wonder who's the next alliance you backstab?
[/quote]
I see not even the great NPO has taught you to read or write. Weren't you an officer in our military when we attacked Pacifica? If I remember right, you didn't have a problem until we focused our attacks inward for a member purge.

[alyster]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='07 May 2010 - 05:56 AM' timestamp='1273200949' post='2289670']
I see not even the great NPO has taught you to read or write. Weren't you an officer in our military when we attacked Pacifica? If I remember right, you didn't have a problem until [b]we focused our attacks inward for a member purge.[/b]
[/quote]


No I joined in July and became an "officer" after the war, or perhaps in the last week of the rape.

But NPO has taught me to read! I wish I could share it with you my old .... friend.

But you bring out another interesting topic. Not only allies of sparta have to be afraid of sparta, but also spartans themselves. But that's another topic....

Edited May 7, 2010 by alyster

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Penkala' date='06 May 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1273200596' post='2289653']
Says the alliance who has probably backstabbed more often than any other....
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]NPO has never really betrayed an ally. Maybe Polaris, but that really is about it. Pretty much every other alliance out their has sacrificed their dignity by kissing up to the NPO, and sold out their own friends to do so. CSN and the rest of SF are no exceptions.[/color]

[jimbacher]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='06 May 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1273200949' post='2289670']
I see not even the great NPO has taught you to read or write. Weren't you an officer in our military when we attacked Pacifica? If I remember right, you didn't have a problem until we focused our attacks inward for a member purge.
[/quote]

Let me guess the questionaire included the following:
If we have a choice between backstabbing or not backstabbing?
A) Backstab
B) Not backstab

I see Seth answered that question correctly from his alliance's perspective.

[bakamitai]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='04 May 2010 - 09:15 AM' timestamp='1272978906' post='2286334']
Briefly regarding 'hyperinflation' and reparations, it is greatly overstated. Any nation with a daily income over $1.5m – around 4000 infra – can send full cash aid indefinitely, and that means they can fund tech reps through sellers within the alliance unless there are deliberately restrictive terms like those imposed on the Orders. The destructive effect of nuclear war means that the average and total NS of major alliances has not changed that much since nukes became commonplace (Unjust War or arguably BLEU War/noCB). Supergrievances members often bring up the reps given to MK and Athens in noCB as an 'injustice' but there was little inflation between September 2008 and July 2009 when they put those record terms on NPO, and the damage caused in Karma and Bipolar means that most alliances were smaller in April 2010 than at the same time last year.

Take a look at the [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=11169&view=findpost&p=878852]Sanction Race[/url] at the end of noCB/BLEU war. The sanction line was 21 points, 5th place 36 points. Today, sanction is 23½ points, and 5th place 34 points. I don't believe the score formula has changed since then, and with more nations then than now, the same score would actually be a slightly [i]higher[/i] score. I don't have NS stats back then to hand (UE?) but I do have them from February 2009 onwards (in the history of the treaty listings on my wiki page) – and in February 2009, you needed 7 million NS and 27 points for a sanction (compared to 6 million today) and 10 million NS/42 points for 5th place.

The conclusion is that [b]NS inflation is a myth[/b] when comparing terms within the last two years. The greatest time of NS inflation came in 2007 and possibly early 2008, when there were no major wars (apart from the Unjust War which fizzled before it did much damage) and many alliances learnt the benefits of back collection and tech dealing.

Edit: As far back as summer 2007, ODN had 46 nations at 3999 or more infra (132 today). GOONS had almost 150. Yes, the capacity for large alliances to make reps has increased, but only by a factor of 3 or so – far less than the inflation of the terms themselves.

What [i]has[/i] greatly increased is the infra level, warchest and capacity to make money of [i]individual large nations[/i]. But since they're still limited to the same old $3m, that doesn't justify an increase in the size of terms. You can clearly see they have outpaced inflation by the length of time it takes to pay them off; it's almost a year since NPO surrendered, and estimates of the time for payment of the reps imposed on TOP and IRON are in the six month bracket. Standard terms imposed in pre-Karma times (i.e. not those deliberately designed to be long term like GPA or GATO) were lifted in much less than that.

I guess that wasn't so brief after all.
[/quote]
This is one of the most insightful posts I've read in a long time. Good show.

[Imperator Hades]

[quote name='alyster' date='07 May 2010 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1273201231' post='2289677']
No I joined in July and became an "officer" after the war, or perhaps in the last week of the rape.

But NPO has taught me to read! I wish I could share it with you my old .... friend.

But you bring out another interesting topic. Not only allies of sparta have to be afraid of sparta, but also spartans themselves. But that's another topic....
[/quote]

Mmmm, new reading skills, new AA, and a new avatar (thankfully) but still the same crappy logic.

Hi alyster.

[quote]I'm sure people will parse my words, but since people seem to think that it needs to come from straight from the blackbird's beak:

The New Pacific Order has not (nor ever) sat idly by since April 20 of last year. We have examined the past and begun to forge our future. We have seen where we made mistakes and we have seen our victories. Do we think we needed to pay the harshest reparations the world has ever seen? No, of course not, and you won't find a Pacifican who thinks so. Does that mean we think everything our alliance has ever done was right and just? Of course not. We are not perfect. Francoism stands for the tenet that we all are but men, and though we simply unite our sovereignty in one person, we engage in the far more difficult task of uniting our wisdom in one person, and it is a task that is never complete.[/quote]

I get the feeling Im going to like you

Edited May 7, 2010 by Imperator Hades

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Sir Paul' date='06 May 2010 - 05:12 AM' timestamp='1273119114' post='2288654']
Alright, time for more Q & A:
---
Q3: Why are people talking about TE duels in your thread, Sir Paul?
A3: Because the state of the OWF is such that everything devolves into "no u" and "my nation could kick your nation's $@!." The Order is looking forward to bringing civility and Order back to the world once we are out of terms.
[/quote]
Hahahaha!

Where is it that NPO received this impression that the state of the OWF was good under their rule? It's pretty hilarious actually.

I guess your ego hasn't been damaged in this war.

[Roadie]

[quote name='alyster' date='06 May 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1273199352' post='2289620']
Says our long time ally and suporter I wonder how big the reps for you have to be compared to IRON

Edit: I also wonder who's the next alliance you backstab?
[/quote]

The new treaty with ODN has made it pretty obvious that the answer is Superfriends.

Good luck to Pacifica and thanks for another quality piece.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Roadie

[Sir Paul]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='06 May 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1273206592' post='2289858']
Hahahaha!

Where is it that NPO received this impression that the state of the OWF was good under their rule? It's pretty hilarious actually.

I guess your ego hasn't been damaged in this war.
[/quote]
Oh Starfox, you may bruise my nation but you will never bruise my ego. Besides, I thought the OWF was as quiet as a library in our tenure; not as loud as a beargarden as yours is. Regardless, I'll discuss this with you in the new manner, but retaining my Pacifican civility.

[i]I'll wind Franco's colors round my loins—
The jet and azure bars,
If the Fox does not feel the stripes,
I'll make him see the stars![/i]

[NationRuler]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='06 May 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1273201754' post='2289693']
[color="#0000FF"]Pretty much every other alliance out their has sacrificed their dignity by kissing up to the NPO, and sold out their own friends to do so. CSN and the rest of SF are no exceptions.[/color]
[/quote]

Rebel Virginia, you tell me in what way CSN has ever sacrificed their dignity by kissing up to the NPO. Give me one, clear, specific example. You tell me exactly how CSN bent their will to that of Pacifica. The ONOS debacle doesn't count, because as you will remember, CSN (just like all of GUARD except for NADC and Chaz ) was all ready to ride to war until ONOS told them to stand down.

Tell me. Enlighten me.

And I swore I wouldn't again post in this thread....

[deathcat]

[quote name='NationRuler' date='06 May 2010 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1273211806' post='2290015']
And I swore I wouldn't again post in this thread....
[/quote]

And they SUCKED you back in!

But I would agree with SP's assessment of the OWF.. Its a playground once run by bullying tactics.. One day the Kindergarteners got tired of forking over the lunch money and decided to gangup on the Bullies.. Now they have them tied up on the monkey bars meanwhile every now and then, they forget they are 5 and start beating up random other kids on the playground.. Seriously.. its true!

I see NPO as a Mature alliance that will emerge much stronger internally for this and will most likely take a "smarter" and more calculated role in OWF politics...

oo/ NPO

[Earogema]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='06 May 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1273201754' post='2289693']
[color="#0000FF"]NPO has never really betrayed an ally. Maybe Polaris, but that really is about it. Pretty much every other alliance out their has sacrificed their dignity by kissing up to the NPO, and sold out their own friends to do so. CSN and the rest of SF are no exceptions.[/color]
[/quote]
Well if you believe their reasons for betraying NpO (that NpO tricked them into allowing their allies to get killed), then they also betrayed GOONS, \m/, and Genmay.

Course, you probably don't care about those, just sayin'.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Earogema

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='NationRuler' date='07 May 2010 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1273211806' post='2290015']
Rebel Virginia, you tell me in what way CSN has ever sacrificed their dignity by kissing up to the NPO. Give me one, clear, specific example. You tell me exactly how CSN bent their will to that of Pacifica. The ONOS debacle doesn't count, because as you will remember, CSN (just like all of GUARD except for NADC and Chaz ) was all ready to ride to war until ONOS told them to stand down.

Tell me. Enlighten me.

And I swore I wouldn't again post in this thread....
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You became a de facto ally of the New Pacific Order after GATO-1V and that remained true for nearly a year.[/color]

[flak attack]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='06 May 2010 - 11:09 PM' timestamp='1273201754' post='2289693']
[color="#0000FF"]NPO has never really betrayed an ally. Maybe Polaris, but that really is about it. Pretty much every other alliance out their has sacrificed their dignity by kissing up to the NPO, and sold out their own friends to do so. CSN and the rest of SF are no exceptions.[/color]
[/quote]
GOONS, MK, Genmay, Valhalla, GS and STA all had MDP+ level treaties with NPO when they were beat down

Edited May 7, 2010 by flak attack

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='flak attack' date='07 May 2010 - 03:37 AM' timestamp='1273217821' post='2290083']
GOONS, MK, Genmay, Valhalla, GS and STA all had MDP+ level treaties with NPO when they were beat down
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Valhalla was never beaten down. GOONS and the UJP acted against an ally of the NPO. You cannot have expected them to support that. STA was a conflict of interest.[/color]

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Roadie' date='07 May 2010 - 05:34 AM' timestamp='1273206824' post='2289867']
The new treaty with ODN has made it pretty obvious that the answer is Superfriends.

Good luck to Pacifica and thanks for another quality piece.
[/quote]
Hang on! according to the various critics in the ODN-Sparta thread its ODN who is next to be left high and dry?? now i am confused

[quote name='Sir Paul' date='07 May 2010 - 05:58 AM' timestamp='1273208319' post='2289915']
Oh Starfox, you may bruise my nation but you will never bruise my ego. Besides, I thought the OWF was as quiet as a library in our tenure; not as loud as a beargarden as yours is. Regardless, I'll discuss this with you in the new manner, but retaining my Pacifican civility.[/quote]
Well in my own humble opinion you thought wrong, just because prior to Vox the vast majority of people were to be it bluntly 'sheep' does not mean the OWF was bereft of dissenting voices, furthermore not all those dissenting voices were bereft of civility.

Besides I can remember more than a few Pacifican regulars on the OWF back then who lacked both courtesy and civility during the era of Pax Pacifica, Starfox was maybe making his point in a rather blunt manner but his basic premise is in my view correct to a large extent. However i see no reason to lambast NPO in the present for the past, as long as the past is not distorted into something that is patently not true.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Cataduanes