Declaration of War

[The Pansy]

methinks someone knows oh so little about strategy. Particularly since NPO PMed that 5% for the entire war and this is about 25 hours into the war...
 
There will be grand tales of Steve Buscemi's intelligence for ages to come!

Actually, knowing strategy, it's pretty obvious the under 50k nations will mostly be kept in peacemode until this ends, I mean, after all, giving your lower tier to Kaskus's wonder heavy nations would just be playing into their hands.
Not that I care about Peacemode myself.

[Avakael]

I think you are confused.

I think you are. The link is censored.
 

By which point he was quite convincing they were simply lying for their ally and discounted it, yes.
 
 So in abstract you can understand that had what he thought was true been true, he would have been right to want to hit you. And it's been shown already that, rightly or wrongly, he actually had a pretty good reason to think you were trying to set him up. I'm definitely not sure myself that you were not trying to set him up, and I bet a pretty large number of readers, even among your own alliance and allies, are not really sure of that as well.
 
If someone at MI6 was behind this that person is quite clever, and certainly more than clever enough to make sure that the bulk of the membership, and anyone not absolutely required, would have no knowledge of it. That would make sure the outrage and denials are completely genuine.
 
If someone at goons was behind it that someone is also very clever indeed, and once again virtually no one in goons, let alone in MI6, would have a clue.
 
And the last possibility, a string of accidents and misunderstandings. When you have one improbable event, that's life, but when you have a string of them piled on top of each other people get suspicious, and they should. The mathematics argues highly against the possibility.
 
Facing three highly unlikely possibilities, I guess Smurf did what a lot of us would do, he went with his gut. His gut told him the info about MI6 had slipped out unintentionally, and that meant it was true, and he went with that. Right or wrong, it was a genuine response, and far from a fabrication.

Said it before in here, I'll say it again: Conspiracy theories are normal enough to have in the back of your head, but pretty dumb to declare a war on.

[IYIyTh]

usually PMing is used for large scale wars in which case there will be many rounds and many alliances attacking you. we are incapable of declaring on all your members effectively making your "strategy" irrelevant.  unless said PM is being used to allow some members to raise a warchest in which case I approve.

EDIT: looking at the PM of MI6 I am amazingly confused, 90% of those members are not in range of I would say 80% of our alliance. please MI6 explain

 

Oh, well at least we've moved on from your tattered CB to peace mode quips.

 

I'd say that's probably an improvement in the discourse so far.

[DeathAdder]

 

Where do you get the idea that that is remotely surprising. NSO and Kaskus have a ~special~ relationship. Hardly news.

 

My point was, he's been wanting war for a while. With anyone. The fact you were used as an example is just that; an example. I'm not surprised, shocked, or much caring if he wanted to war you.

[KenoCore]

 

Oh, well at least we've moved on from your tattered CB to peace mode quips.

 

I'd say that's probably an improvement in the discourse so far.

it was simply a question brought about by curiosity, no need for such a tone.

an improvement would be for alliances to not care about being declared on.

[IYIyTh]

it was simply a question brought about by curiosity, no need for such a tone.

an improvement would be for alliances to not care about being declared on.

 

Not every alliance approaches war strategy as carelessly as it manages its reasons for going to war.

[Caustic]

lol "strategy" in a numerical 3v1. Shut up and accept the fact that you're cowards. Peace mode is a strategy in coalition war where you expect to have to counter multiple waves.

[KenoCore]

 

Not every alliance approaches war strategy as carelessly as it manages its reasons for going to war.

then I feel genuinely bad for you.

[Dochartaigh]

usually PMing is used for large scale wars in which case there will be many rounds and many alliances attacking you. we are incapable of declaring on all your members effectively making your "strategy" irrelevant.  unless said PM is being used to allow some members to raise a warchest in which case I approve.

EDIT: looking at the PM of MI6 I am amazingly confused, 90% of those members are not in range of I would say 80% of our alliance. please MI6 explain

 

 

lol "strategy" in a numerical 3v1. Shut up and accept the fact that you're cowards. Peace mode is a strategy in coalition war where you expect to have to counter multiple waves.

 

 

You mean the same alliance that has thus far received 3 new members (possibly 4 if you count nashorn) and between SPATR and NEW could receive more? But hey... let's forget bout all that. 

 

I mean NG called us cowards guys. Let's pack up and hang our heads in shame now. :(

[KenMorningstar]

lol "strategy" in a numerical 3v1. Shut up and accept the fact that you're cowards. Peace mode is a strategy in coalition war where you expect to have to counter multiple waves.

Most of kaskus has billion dollar war chests and massive wonders. It's not really a good fight for anyone under 70k.

Placing their lower teirs in peace mode keeps kaskus on a leash, sit there and stay small or spend some money and face the big boys again.

Its a valid and intelligent strategy against a micro with nations like kaskus. Edited September 24, 2014 by KenMorningstar

[KenoCore]

 

 

 

 

You mean the same alliance that has thus far received 3 new members (possibly 4 if you count nashorn) and between SPATR and NEW could receive more? But hey... let's forget bout all that. 

 

I mean NG called us cowards guys. Let's pack up and hang our heads in shame now. :(

as far as I am aware none of those ever lost Kaskus Membership. Usually when member resigns it is on the FB forums, I never saw any of them resign. alot of our members including me go on other AA's to assist other alliances.
you would need to discuss with leadership to know the answer you seek.

Edited September 24, 2014 by KenoCore

[IYIyTh]

as far as I am aware none of those ever lost Kaskus Membership. Usually when member resigns it is on the FB forums, I never saw any of them resign. alot of our members including me go on other AA's to assist other alliances.
you would need to discuss with leadership to know the answer you seek.

 

He was kidding with you 

 

OOC: I know, lame english translations :P /OOC

[Facade]

lol "strategy" in a numerical 3v1. Shut up and accept the fact that you're cowards. Peace mode is a strategy in coalition war where you expect to have to counter multiple waves.

Well aren't you just adorable.

[KenoCore]

 

He was kidding with you 

 

OOC: I know, lame english translations :P /OOC

spotting sillyness over the interweb is not my strong suit. :D!

[Partisan]

 

 

I was going to go through the thread and address major points brought up.. but I see very few worth addressing. Anyone who has read the logs will know the answer to any one that has been heralded as a 'counterpoint.' 

 

I will leave you with one final log: 

 

EDIT: Removed as requested from a friend.

 

Pardon me, sir. It seems that you have forgotten about a few posts that certainly deserve your attention. I will kindly point them out again.

 

Reading this thread, I can not help but see chaunce bringing up excellent points and raising an excellent question. Unfortunately, it appears that kaskus officials (US) have been unable to reply to Chaunce's attempts at civil discourse. I will assume that this is a sincere mistake caused by the fact that kaskus is rather occupied with replying to other, less well-constructed posts. While I understand your situation, I would sincerely request for an official kaskus response to the following quotes. My interest lies mostly with the promotion of civil discourse in this thread. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

@partisan will do when I get back from work. Responses that require logs/proof will have to wait.

 

(Page 12, post 223 for reference to the Chaunce quotes)

[Garion]

This thread took a turn for the worse: PM jabs already? :|

[Walshington]

This thread took a turn for the worse: PM jabs already? :|

 

Well, Partisan is making an effort, but threads devolve disappointingly quick these days.

[Gibsonator21]

Never give Partisan credit. Ever.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Gibsonator21

[Charles the Tyrant]

Most of kaskus has billion dollar war chests and massive wonders. It's not really a good fight for anyone under 70k.

Placing their lower teirs in peace mode keeps kaskus on a leash, sit there and stay small or spend some money and face the big boys again.

Its a valid and intelligent strategy against a micro with nations like kaskus.

 

Don't waste your time trying to educate some of the folk around here. You will never get these precious minutes back :P

[Unknown Smurf]

 

 

 

Pardon me, sir. It seems that you have forgotten about a few posts that certainly deserve your attention. I will kindly point them out again.

 

 

 

 

(Page 12, post 223 for reference to the Chaunce quotes)

 

 

Apologies, with all the excitement it slipped my mind.

 

 

 

So if you aren't warmongering, do you at minimum acknowledge, as is now obvious,  that you based this war on a false premise and acted far too hastily?

 

 

I still maintain I did not base this war on false premise, but I could understand why people felt I acted too hastily. But at the same time, waiting would've only hurt us militarily by allowing the defenses to be prepared. 

 

At the time of my declaration I felt that MI6 was guilty -- any more information I tried to get from both Mi6 or GOONS was met with a denial of service message due to opsec reasons... This looked like the actions of a guilty party.

 

Chauncey, on 23 Sept 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

 

Heh, it wasn't even a miscommunication between MI6 and GOONS. It was a minor internal miscommunication within GOONS that didn't have anything to do with MI6.

 

 

 

As for your attempts being met by silence, the thread in our embassy proves that wrong. Stagger clearly replied, as did others. The logical conclusion would have been to maybe suspect MI6 of foul play, but then to contact GOONS to clarify things first; not to suspect MI6 of foul play, accuse MI6 without double checking with GOONS, and then when MI6 truthfully responds that we have no idea what you are talking about, respond by going to war. This wasn't even a time sensitive issue. If you would have waited one more day to hit us, to ensure you have the story straight, your attack still would have been just as much of a surprise. So you can't really claim to have acted in a logical manner throughout this process. It is clear to everyone that it was the opposite.

 

 

 

If you are the baby in that sig then you got me. You are too cute for me to resist. DBDC DBDC DBDC

 

I was met by silence on the government level.. in private channels if you will. I took the responses in the embassy to mean that the ignores elsewhere were intentional and not due to an inactive alliance (among other potential reasons).

 

I am willing to admit that it is possible that just certain key people all happened to be inactive for that 72 hour period. 

 

Chauncey, on 23 Sept 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

 

Stagger did speculate as to the source of the misunderstanding, but his initial sentences were quite clear. To quote him: "A defense implies I'm trying to defend anything we actually did. No, I don't think GOONS made it up. I think KenM had a misinformed view. Milton would know what we actually said."

 

That doesn't seem like a dance to me. He just stated the facts that have been confirmed in this thread. Also, you clearly did not double check with KenM beforehand, and you did double check with some of GOONS, who completely contradicted your theory. So that doesn't help your point in the least bit.

 

I play pretend with my friends on the playground all the time. I'm always the red power ranger. But that isn't the issue at hand. The primary cause of this issue has nothing to do with misinformed MI6 members, but misinformed Kaskus leadership.

 

 

Agreed. It is a weird unstable middle ground he is trying to hold, which is only publicly discrediting him. The logical thing to do is either admit he acted poorly in his leadership position and that he made a mistake, or to admit he just wanted an excuse to fight a war. Instead, this middle ground is displaying that he still acted poorly in his leadership of Kaskus, but also is acting rather illogically in the aftermath of the mess he caused, and hence still acting poorly in his leadership of Kaskus. There are two logical paths, but neither are being followed. I'm not trying to rile anyone up, just stating what is evident.

 

He (Stagger Lee) said that GOONS did not make up the fact that MI6 told them we wouldn't protect LN .. and that this was the reason they (GOONS) hit LN. In my emotional (bellicose manner if we're going to use the word of the day) way I took stagger message to mean literally that. "No, I don't think GOONS made it up" .. I think that, as with many people, I was hearing what I wanted to hear at that point. But keep in mind this was a last ditch effort on my part, I had already spent days following up on my conversation with KenM with various sources at this point. 

 

At the end of the day I don't believe I acted poorly, I acted with the information I had at hand which was looking like MI6 being guilty.. 

 

 

EDIT: somehow I messed up formatting pretty badly. 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Unknown Smurf

[Neo Uruk]

It'd be wise to note that the people defending Kaskus are, for the most part, the people who show up and say Methrage is a swell guy when he goes off on his incoherent rampages.

The remainder are people that think MI6 is a bunch of sweaty nerds (they are)

Edited September 24, 2014 by Neo Uruk

[Charles the Tyrant]

At the time of my declaration I felt that MI6 was guilty -- any more information I tried to get from both Mi6 or GOONS was met with a denial of service message due to opsec reasons... This looked like the actions of a guilty party.

 

 

Indicating past tense and that you no longer feel that your initial thoughts and reactions were correct?

 

He (Stagger Lee) said that GOONS did not make up the fact that MI6 told them we wouldn't protect LN .. and that this was the reason they (GOONS) hit LN. In my emotional (bellicose manner if we're going to use the word of the day) way I took stagger message to mean literally that. "No, I don't think GOONS made it up" .. I think that, as with many people, I was hearing what I wanted to hear at that point. But keep in mind this was a last ditch effort on my part, I had already spent days following up on my conversation with KenM with various sources at this point. 

 

 

I said this in the embassy too but I will repeat it here. You attacked MI6 because you were informed that a member of our gov was of the opinion that you would not defend your protectorate. Never mind that you aren't defending your protectorate but attacked over an opinion?

 

This is too good to be true :P

[Neo Uruk]

He hasn't provided a satisfactory answer to why he hasn't defended his protectorate yet, really.

[Unknown Smurf]

As stated in the OP GOONS agrees to white peace LN once the war dies down.. considering both sides are good with that we had no reason to intervene.

To add to that GOONS seemed genuine and sincere throughout talks. They stated they had no desire for another nuclear slugfest with Kaskus, how it was likely this (LN war) wasn't going to go on forever and how they weren't on a ZI quest. They felt that a war with Kaskus would have debilitated both sides ability to be effective in the next global conflict which was something they intend to be a part of.

All of this combined resulted in no declaration on them.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Unknown Smurf

[Neo Uruk]

You do realize that there have already been several busted peace agreements? I'm not saying it's GOONS' fault, especially given recent history trying to get peace from Methrage, but what makes this peace agreement different from the last few?