King Tower IV Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Good to see you pulled those two rotten teeth. You should feel much better now. Way to go RoK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Stupid Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1328320480' post='2914188'] That's a very solid point, and one that I don't (and never did) blame Bob or Joe for. They had to break the cult, or it would always be Hoo's Rok. Sadly for their alliance, it blew up in their faces. [/quote] I wouldn't say sadly, they wanted it it seems. They would rather want Hoo on a different AA and kait inactive then someone else trying to break the mold. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olafur R Grimsson Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1328325463' post='2914249'] I wouldn't say sadly, they wanted it it seems. They would rather want Hoo on a different AA and kait inactive then someone else trying to break the mold. It is what it is. [/quote] 10x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ilyani Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1328316240' post='2914137'] Sorry for the wall of text, but the nuances of this, bring back some bad memories for me. Dont judge Bob and Joe too harshly, afterall, how do you defeat a deity? [/quote] This man pretty much hit the nail on the head. He knows what he's talking about, and he's said it quite well... the situation is very similar. Unfortunately for RoK, however, it took a huge shift in perception (the incident) for Joe and I to realize that the cult was unbreakable. Was that shortsighted? Sure. But it was sure as hell the best thing for the alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac MatthewII Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1328332415' post='2914300'] This man pretty much hit the nail on the head. He knows what he's talking about, and he's said it quite well... the situation is very similar. Unfortunately for RoK, however, it took a huge shift in perception (the incident) for Joe and I to realize that the cult was unbreakable. Was that shortsighted? Sure. But it was sure as hell the best thing for the alliance. [/quote] You can tell by the NS drop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1328333084' post='2914306'] You can tell by the NS drop... [/quote] Issac, the best thing you and those left in RoK can do is left this thread die, seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac MatthewII Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1328334940' post='2914317'] Issac, the best thing you and those left in RoK can do is left this thread die, seriously. [/quote] lol never mind not worth it Edited February 4, 2012 by Isaac MatthewII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimRome Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1328333084' post='2914306'] You can tell by the NS drop... [/quote] This was an intelligent response that added much to the quality of this conversation. Good on you sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1328333084' post='2914306'] You can tell by the NS drop... [/quote] His point, which appears to have sailed over your head, is that it's better to have tried to fight the cult of personality and attempted to make RoK an alliance with a future than let things slide and merely be the metaphorical Torgo, watching the place while the master is away. There's a huge difference between alliances with long histories of different governments like VE, NPO, or hell even GATO and alliances based around one or two people. It is the truest test of an alliance's worth to have it survive the leaving of a founder or core government members, and RoK is beyond a doubt, an alliance that would fail such a test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indra Saputra Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 o/ RoK wyatb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1328345889' post='2914369'] ... and RoK is beyond a doubt, an alliance that would fail such a test. [/quote] ... or in fact, one that just [i]has[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ying Yang Mafia Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1328316240' post='2914137'] <snip> [/quote] There were maybe seven or eight people who were posting on the Athens forums with any semblance of regularity. It had been that way for a while. I talked to several members who agreed with me that Athens was a dying alliance. I think it is great that you managed to salvage it into something new and different, but to say that you wiped the slate clean because it would always be Londo's alliance and you had to start anew seems inaccurate. [quote]Sorry for the wall of text, but the nuances of this, bring back some bad memories for me. Dont judge Bob and Joe too harshly, afterall, how do you defeat a deity?[/quote] What's a god to a non-believer? Edited February 4, 2012 by Ying Yang Mafia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Boris Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='berbers' timestamp='1328308449' post='2914031'] Part of my confusion stems from how MK knew she was vunerable? Then again, Bros is admin on the forums, so he may have just read the resignation post. [/quote] I think I've just seen the first true nominee for "Derp post of the year: 2012"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1328325463' post='2914249'] I wouldn't say sadly, they wanted it it seems. They would rather want Hoo on a different AA and kait inactive then someone else trying to break the mold. It is what it is. [/quote] Break the mold? Your entire existence has been to perpetuate the mold. You supported not just who Kait and Hoo were, but all of their actions of record in the past, and nothing you ever did changed the nature of the alliance you and Bob were leading. It was only when an issue like the Kait/Hoo one blew up that you decided to do a complete 180 and backtrack away from them by giving Kait up for attack, revising your past stances on what the alliance was before Bob took over, and trying to kiss up in an effort to get a seat at the big boy table. Bob and yourself did everything you could to perpetuate the fail train that Rok was riding from your predecessors, to see you here standing all high and mighty pretending to be something you weren't is hilarious. Your alliance is garbage, your predecessor was garbage, and you are garbage for having supported both unilaterally for so long. In fact, I hold you in less regard than Kait because everyone knew Kait was a terrible alliance leader and prone to bouts of hysterics and general horrendousness, but she needed people to support her and she always had people like you willing to spout verbal diarrhea in order to make a case for whatever ridiculous direction she was taking the alliance in. You were perfectly happy with the mold. You lived in the mold. Commitment to and enjoyment of the mold is what made you the 2nd in command of Rok. It was only when it looked like the mold left you with pie all over your face and your alliance (somehow) even more humiliated and more of a joke than before that you decided it needed to be broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Stupid Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1328372749' post='2914455'] snip [/quote] See, this convinces me that 1) you know absolutely nothing about the inner workings of Rok, yet still act like you do, and 2) everything that spews from your mouth is pure !@#$. Everything Kait did i basically challenged her on it. She made me her Regent, it lasted for 3 weeks before she demoted me. I then left Rok for a little bit but came back knowing I can still do some good. It could be her arguing for tech at 3mil/150 deals and I would have fought tooth and nail with her on it. We've had some really nasty fights that anyone in Rok's RC can attest. Pages of us going back and forth and getting nowhere. You were right though, she did need her support. She had Yukon Don, her yes-man who she appointed after I stepped down. Everything she did he agreed on. He is and will ever be her toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Hoo III Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1328382814' post='2914519'] See, this convinces me that 1) you know absolutely nothing about the inner workings of Rok, yet still act like you do, and 2) everything that spews from your mouth is pure !@#$. Everything Kait did i basically challenged her on it. She made me her Regent, it lasted for 3 weeks before she demoted me. I then left Rok for a little bit but came back knowing I can still do some good. It could be her arguing for tech at 3mil/150 deals and I would have fought tooth and nail with her on it. We've had some really nasty fights that anyone in Rok's RC can attest. Pages of us going back and forth and getting nowhere. You were right though, she did need her support. She had Yukon Don, her yes-man who she appointed after I stepped down. Everything she did he agreed on. He is and will ever be her toy. [/quote] Actually, while it will probably make his skin crawl, I mostly agree with goldie. You don't sit in the upper government of an alliance when you're adamantly opposed to what they are doing. You supported Taut, Kait, Rampage, and Bob. Sure, you disagreed at times, but ultimately came around. RoK has made several poor decisions in the past fifteen months, and that is on your head as well. Sorry Joe, that just comes with serving in upper government and you can't conveniently distance yourself from it in a weak attempt to gain favor with outside alliances. You do realize that you're currently a punchline, right? All those individuals supporting you and Bob? They are actually mocking you and you're too caught up in the moment to see it. They don't care about Ragnarok at all and simply like fueling the drama. Past emperors (Kait included) did try and make RoK less of my alliance and more their own, they just went about it the wrong way. Up and dumping SF (and everyone else it seems), sponsoring MA in SF, screwing VE over, jumping into another bloc, signing treaties with questionable alliances, tossing members to the wolves to gain bronwie points ... these are all certainly things that I would never do and gave RoK it's own identity. Sadly, it isn't the sort of identity that you should want. This is something that several people (myself included) saw coming but there wasn't much that could be done about it. For all the talk that RoK does whatever I want, they ignored any advice that I gave in a desperate attempt to change everything about the alliance. Want to know the best way to make the alliance more your own? Improve it. Do the work and make it the alliance it used to be. Or take it on a new and better path. Do what I failed to do the last time I was emperor -- fix what is wrong with RoK. Sure, I kept us respectable and kept the alliance afloat. But, I failed to right the ship. I just didn't have the time or energy to fix all that ailed her. Instead, Bob and Joe tried the quick and easy way and it blew up in their faces. You were trying too hard to make yourselves known and guess what? You are. You're known as two screw-ups who put RoK in it's (possibly final) nosedive. Congrats. Also: No, while it might be what is best for RoK, the coup is not legal. Our original charter had checks and balances that allowed for the removal of the sitting emperor because I knew that I wouldn't lead the alliance forever and such a clause needed to be in place. However, in re-writing the charter numerous times that part seems to have been removed. Due to your charter, the attack on Kait is also (sadly) legal as well. It is petty and misguided, sure. But it is 100% legal. It is also important to note that Kait was not made aware of any negotiations and defended herself via nuke. She is being nuked daily since and has not fired back, so I would suggest that you guys either declare her a rogue or work something out with MK. Yes, they are being d-bags of the highest order at the moment, but they are in the right. Lastly, in regard to the OOC issue ... this isn't the place to discuss it. My PM box, however, is open to anyone who actually wants the truth on the matter. There is a lot of misinformation and flat out lies being spread, but at the end of the day people that don't like you will believe anything simply because they WANT to believe it. For example, [OOC]I didn't log into CN, the OWF, or the RoK forums once during our entire ordeal. Admin (or someone else with the power to) collected taxes for me due to my situation. I actually assumed that I had been deleted.[OOC] It is amazing what you learn when you bother to fact check. Edited February 4, 2012 by Van Hoo III Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1328385920' post='2914537'] Up and dumping SF (and everyone else it seems), sponsoring MA in SF, screwing VE over, jumping into another bloc, signing treaties with questionable alliances, tossing members to the wolves to gain bronwie points ... these are all certainly things that I would never do and gave RoK it's own identity. Sadly, it isn't the sort of identity that you should want. [/quote] I get the feeling that if you would have told this to your former alliance months ago, they may not be where they are today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1328382814' post='2914519'] See, this convinces me that 1) you know absolutely nothing about the inner workings of Rok, yet still act like you do, and 2) everything that spews from your mouth is pure !@#$. Everything Kait did i basically challenged her on it. She made me her Regent, it lasted for 3 weeks before she demoted me. I then left Rok for a little bit but came back knowing I can still do some good. It could be her arguing for tech at 3mil/150 deals and I would have fought tooth and nail with her on it. We've had some really nasty fights that anyone in Rok's RC can attest. Pages of us going back and forth and getting nowhere. You were right though, she did need her support. She had Yukon Don, her yes-man who she appointed after I stepped down. Everything she did he agreed on. He is and will ever be her toy. [/quote] I've been in upper gov in VE for almost 2.5 years now. Imagine how silly it would sound if I suddenly said that I didn't agree with anything that VE had done during my time in gov, and worked to revise nearly all of my public stances on VE's actions during that time. It sounds ridiculous, because it is. I'm not talking about economic practices, we're talking about alliance politics and direction. You supported Rok when they re-signed with Polar, you supported Rok when they screwed over VE, you supported Rok when they hit PC, you supported Rok when they dumped SF, you supported Rok when they signed MJ. What exactly did you not support politically that Kait did? Your posts leave nothing to the imagination, others made moves, you were one of the, if not the most vocal person in your alliance supporting those moves and selling them to the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaitlinK Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1328387294' post='2914546'] I get the feeling that if you would have told this to your former alliance months ago, they may not be where they are today. [/quote] He did... Screwing over VE (which is exactly what happened) was not supported by Hoo nor the leader that took over for Taut (that would be me) He was vocal in not liking HOW SF was dropped (which was a mistake that I have to own 100%) The sad truth is the decline of Ragnarok can be attributed to leadship trying (and failing) to do things their OWN way. One other thing that is worth mentioning here is that raids have risks... duh Yes, if the MK group that raided my nation is going to attack me they shouldnt have been surprised that after I asked for peace and was turned down they were going to get a nuke in their inbox. I dont believe I have sent a nuke to the nations that have have attacked me under the MK banner because I have been recently informed that there are negotiations ongoing. Though I am uncertain as to what "negotiations" need to take place? They raided a nation that was served up to them on a platter (again perfectly legal via the RoK charter) but those attacks should have ceased the moment they learned I am still the property of Ragnarok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I don't blame Taut for giving his support to us, I blame you/Hoo for defecting to Polar and driving the rest of Rok to support you, giving the impetus to having people screw us over. Stop trying to pin everything your alliance $%&@ed up on on other people (like you pin that on Taut), and take some of it for yourselves. You absolutely supported the war against VE and allies. If you didn't, you wouldn't have joined Polar, you wouldn't have worked to justify the war, and most importantly, you would have honored the commitment Rok gov made to support VE and not worked to incite unrest over that decision, eventually leading to the decision by Rok to flip flop and defend Polar. The honest truth is the decline of Ragnarok can be attributed to leadership being people like you, Bob, Joe, Taut, Ramp, etc. People wholly unqualified to make decisions under fire or lead their alliance in the correct directions who, in times of crisis, choose the cleanest and easiest option, rather than the right one to direct your alliance in. Look at what you did when Rok said they'd support VE. You failed your alliance. Look at what Taut did when Rok flipped out over you and Hoo leaving for Polar. He failed your alliance. Look at what Bob/Joe did when OOC things came out to incriminate you. They failed your alliance. Your alliance's leadership is peppered with failures from anyone not named Hoo (with the exception of the Karma War trium who did some decent things), and even Hoo has his share of failures politically, which all contributed to the state it is in now much more than the actual crisis that has engulfed the alliance in the past couple of weeks. Your alliance has fallen as much from where it was pre-Karma to now as people like MCXA and Invicta, but they're the alliances who were defeated militarily 3-4 times each since then, whereas you just set out to defeat yourselves by not standing for anything but avoiding going to hell, and making sure that if you get close that as few people as possible end up actually getting down there to have to crawl back, alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapmanej Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='KaitlinK' timestamp='1328388318' post='2914555'] He did... Screwing over VE (which is exactly what happened) was not supported by Hoo nor the leader that took over for Taut (that would be me) He was vocal in not liking HOW SF was dropped (which was a mistake that I have to own 100%) The sad truth is the decline of Ragnarok can be attributed to leadship trying (and failing) to do things their OWN way. One other thing that is worth mentioning here is that raids have risks... duh Yes, if the MK group that raided my nation is going to attack me they shouldnt have been surprised that after I asked for peace and was turned down they were going to get a nuke in their inbox. I dont believe I have sent a nuke to the nations that have have attacked me under the MK banner because I have been recently informed that there are negotiations ongoing. Though I am uncertain as to what "negotiations" need to take place? They raided a nation that was served up to them on a platter (again perfectly legal via the RoK charter) but those attacks should have ceased the moment they learned I am still the property of Ragnarok. [/quote] In regards to the attacks, your nation ceased to be a part of the RoK AA from approx the time Joe and Bob served notice to MK on the subject to the time I guess Adel ascended to the leader of Rok. However, general CN protocol calls for nations with ongoing wars to not being granted entrance (or I guess in your situation re-entrance). There were several mistakes made that have made this situation worse. First, (even though you may have felt justified in doing so) nuking an MK nation was a mistake, Adel letting back in a nation at nuclear war was a second mistake, and finally, nuking a second time while in the middle of negotiations was the third and biggest mistake. This whole situation would have been resolved had you not sent a nuke, and Adel properly informing MK that KK was re-admitted to Rok. I could be wrong, but I am of the opinion that your nuke during the middle of negotiations was a coincidence, but that falls on Adel, as she should have informed you about impending negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaitlinK Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='rapmanej' timestamp='1328391441' post='2914569'] In regards to the attacks, your nation ceased to be a part of the RoK AA from approx the time Joe and Bob served notice to MK on the subject to the time I guess Adel ascended to the leader of Rok. However, general CN protocol calls for nations with ongoing wars to not being granted entrance (or I guess in your situation re-entrance). There were several mistakes made that have made this situation worse. First, (even though you may have felt justified in doing so) nuking an MK nation was a mistake, Adel letting back in a nation at nuclear war was a second mistake, and finally, nuking a second time while in the middle of negotiations was the third and biggest mistake. This whole situation would have been resolved had you not sent a nuke, and Adel properly informing MK that KK was re-admitted to Rok. I could be wrong, but I am of the opinion that your nuke during the middle of negotiations was a coincidence, but that falls on Adel, as she should have informed you about impending negotiations. [/quote] I happen to agree with quite a bit of your post. I still think that nations that decline peace, not waving the MK banner and raiding a nation cant really complain about being nuked. I will state that had I known RoK was in negotiations I wouldnt have added a couple of nukes to an already messy situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Blake Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1328391099' post='2914567'] I don't blame Taut for giving his support to us, I blame you/Hoo for defecting to Polar and driving the rest of Rok to support you, giving the impetus to having people screw us over. Stop trying to pin everything your alliance $%&@ed up on on other people (like you pin that on Taut), and take some of it for yourselves. You absolutely supported the war against VE and allies. If you didn't, you wouldn't have joined Polar, you wouldn't have worked to justify the war, and most importantly, you would have honored the commitment Rok gov made to support VE and not worked to incite unrest over that decision, eventually leading to the decision by Rok to flip flop and defend Polar. The honest truth is the decline of Ragnarok can be attributed to leadership being people like you, Bob, Joe, Taut, Ramp, etc. People wholly unqualified to make decisions under fire or lead their alliance in the correct directions who, in times of crisis, choose the cleanest and easiest option, rather than the right one to direct your alliance in. Look at what you did when Rok said they'd support VE. You failed your alliance. Look at what Taut did when Rok flipped out over you and Hoo leaving for Polar. He failed your alliance. Look at what Bob/Joe did when OOC things came out to incriminate you. They failed your alliance. Your alliance's leadership is peppered with failures from anyone not named Hoo (with the exception of the Karma War trium who did some decent things), and even Hoo has his share of failures politically, which all contributed to the state it is in now much more than the actual crisis that has engulfed the alliance in the past couple of weeks. [/quote] You could probably also add in dropping Polar (the alliance you just burned all your political capital with most of your allies for) for a group of fair-weather friends, who were more than happy to cast RoK aside when times got hard, as another major mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurion Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1328382814' post='2914519'] See, this convinces me that 1) you know absolutely nothing about the inner workings of Rok, yet still act like you do, and 2) everything that spews from your mouth is pure !@#$. Everything Kait did i basically challenged her on it. She made me her Regent, it lasted for 3 weeks before she demoted me. I then left Rok for a little bit but came back knowing I can still do some good. It could be her arguing for tech at 3mil/150 deals and I would have fought tooth and nail with her on it. We've had some really nasty fights that anyone in Rok's RC can attest. Pages of us going back and forth and getting nowhere. You were right though, she did need her support. She had Yukon Don, her yes-man who she appointed after I stepped down. Everything she did he agreed on. He is and will ever be her toy. [/quote] You know, regular members don't get away with that line of reasoning. Coming from someone who was in government, it's laughable. Edited February 4, 2012 by Aurion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baltus Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [quote name='William Blake' timestamp='1328397497' post='2914603'] You could probably also add in dropping Polar (the alliance you just burned all your political capital with most of your allies for) for a group of fair-weather friends, who were more than happy to cast RoK aside when times got hard, as another major mistake. [/quote] Yeah, that was one of the most crazy moves I had ever seen. Abandon one ally for a bad one and then ditch the bad one, making both sides hate you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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