Will the Real Ragnarok Please stand up?

[In Spades]

Wow, you guys succeeded in turning something that was once a fun and made it into the biggest, brownest, run-oniest turd of a derpfest evar.

Edited February 2, 2012 by In Spades

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1328223886' post='2913384']
Actually, I was going off the information that went out on air from the mouth of ... wait for it... Empress Adel. So how about YOU get all YOUR facts straight before you foam. Or just, I don't know, shut up for a change. Considering you are not in Rok and why shouldn't I go off the information I got from Adel and those actually in Rok... yeah go find another topic.
[/quote]
Once again, Leet Guy has already posted the direct quotes of Joe and Bob, which I placed in quotes in my reply to you, and which are intrinsically OOC. Your assertion that anyone except Joe brought in "elements that are not of this direct world" or that we're doing so to "sensationalize" it is contrary to [i]reality[/i]. We can't make up what Joe said.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='In Spades' timestamp='1328224655' post='2913398']
Wow, you guys succeeded in turning something that was once a fun and made it into the biggest, brownest, run-oniest turd of a derpfest evar.
[/quote]
Heyyyy, welcome back, Squadleader.

[Velocity111]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1328225202' post='2913400']
Once again, Leet Guy has already posted the direct quotes of Joe and Bob, which I placed in quotes in my reply to you, and which are intrinsically OOC. Your assertion that anyone except Joe brought in "elements that are not of this direct world" or that we're doing so to "sensationalize" it is contrary to [i]reality[/i]. We can't make up what Joe said.
[/quote]
You're complaining to the wrong person if that's your problem. Apparently Adel's radio interview is the source of this "misinformation."

edit: misinformation in quotes because I'm not so sure it actually is

Edited February 2, 2012 by Velocity111

[Brehon]

So, you are saying I should not listen to what Adel said? I should go off only what Leet Guy posted (who you stated is not a moralist, thus there is no telling where those logs came from *twisting is fun isn't it)? There is only an OOC issue here? There isn't sensationalism going on in this thread while people focus on only one aspect of this?

My post was simply, me telling everyone to drop the OOC crap and simply look at what was going on in the game, which is in direct connection to the interview and discussion about this topic last night. When you pull all the OOC stuff away, it is amazing the mass amount of issues that still are around which people are refusing, lying or completely side stepping.

Everyone is caught up on the Kait portion and calling nothing but OOC. However the current Empress of Rok... their ultimate authority stated plainly and clearly; Kait discussed and/or posted to high gov about her intention to leave after the war (csn). So Adel is lying? What are you saying exactly Schattenman? It really begs the question: Why is everyone being caught up in it? It isnot for OOC stuff (and any ooc stuff is simply terrible and pathetic), but because it covers up the rest of the BS actions that have gone on and the crap people have pulled (no matter which side of the issue).

Anyone can make up what anyone has said. Whether they are or not is not equal to the ability to actually do so. Funny thing is I am not going off anything but what I was told on air, last night, by Adel. These aren't even my words they were her responses to the question. And again.. this is from Rok's Emperor who is in the "know" about this. If that is not the case... man things are even worse than I already have stated.

[Isaac MatthewII]

Wow #805 and still this topic is pointless...

[Bob Janova]

Some people have a level of trust that goes beyond their alliance, and having those people help you with your forum isn't necessarily a bad thing (though I like to know enough about forums not to have to do that). But DDL is not one of those people, and letting him have admin rights when not in Ragnarok was pretty silly.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328227285' post='2913424']
Some people have a level of trust that goes beyond their alliance, and having those people help you with your forum isn't necessarily a bad thing (though I like to know enough about forums not to have to do that). But DDL is not one of those people, and letting him have admin rights when not in Ragnarok was pretty silly.
[/quote]
While you are correct, to be fair he was a part of Ragnarok until shortly before he took down the forum, and he was a member for a while, so some thought it was possible to trust him.

[Brehon]

So Bob Ilyani, I have to ask....

Is it true Kait talked or posted to "upper gov" the intention to leave Rok after the war (CSN)?

[IYIyTh]

So is it true that Ragnarok pretty much is alright with Adel leading the government and the only ones upset are outside of it and/or would rather Ilyani be in power for their own agenda?

Edited February 3, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Thrash]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1328226353' post='2913413']
Kait discussed and/or posted to high gov about her intention to leave after the war (csn).
[/quote]

Brehon, maybe she changed her mind? Ragnarok and CSN peaced out on [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108160"]1/2[/url]. So, there's a good what, 20+ days there before all the crap started? Why weren't they like "you need to leave" at any point before that, or ask what her intentions were?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Thrash

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='bros2' timestamp='1328223727' post='2913382']
2. On the server that MK is on, only MK and GOONS are currently on it, the rest of the stuff hosted is either domains that redirect to the MK forums (see www.newpolarorder.net), things that MK uses (Our IRC Server, mumble server, ventrilo server, and teamspeak server), and the forums.
[/quote]

What castle is the princess in?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Brehon]

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1328228424' post='2913434']
Brehon, maybe she changed her mind? Ragnarok and CSN peaced out on [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108160"]1/2[/url]. So, there's a good what, 20 days there before all the crap started? Why weren't they like "you need to leave" at any point before that, or ask what her intentions were?
[/quote]

Myth - You get it... you totally get it.

Thrash - Could have, no doubt. Doesn't change the second part of that: If Rok top gov made the call and the Emperor endorsed or the Emperor made it, its 100% legal in accordance to the charter of Rok because the Emperor has ultimate authority. And trust me I see and have pointed out the plethura of issues Rok has, no matter who was or who is leader. Its a stinky mess. And none could accurately answer that question (what her intentions were) because everyone didn't talk and all that jazz, once again as stated by Adel on air last night.

[Thrash]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1328228714' post='2913439']
Thrash - Could have, no doubt. Doesn't change the second part of that: If Rok top gov made the call and the Emperor endorsed or the Emperor made it, its 100% legal in accordance to the charter of Rok because the Emperor has ultimate authority. And trust me I see and have pointed out the plethura of issues Rok has, no matter who was or who is leader. Its a stinky mess. And none could accurately answer that question (what her intentions were) because everyone didn't talk and all that jazz, once again as stated by Adel on air last night.
[/quote]

So, you think the timing of it is just coincidental?

Who in their right mind would just up and boot a founder without contacting them, especially when they hadn't done anything wrong? Seriously, people say all the time "I'm leaving after this war.", and some do and some don't.

[Charles Stuart]

I think it is the reasoning behind the decision to kick out the said member that has led to this !@#$fest. Since a charter is technically an IC thing then it can really only apply to IC matters within this realm and no other though it could be highly amusing if this weren't always so.

Actually, I am wrong, we have never made much of an issue when it comes to kicking from our AAs these who belong to certain OOC European themed ideologies so it is a murky issue I guess.

[IYIyTh]

Yet no one sees the giant conflict of interest of the recently-deposed-because-of-their-actions interviews or are we all trying to emulate partisan news networks.

If this situation is going to be handled reasonably the point your trying to make is redundant.

Even if we legitamize Bob's actions (...eh?) there's still the matter of why a raided nation should pay someone reps, alliance affiliation of the raider and a litany of other issues surrounding this whole event that one would think expedite a quick and easy solution instead of the saber rattling and other nonsense taking place.

[Brehon]

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1328229118' post='2913449']
So, you think the timing of it is just coincidental?

Who in their right mind would just up and boot a founder without contacting them, especially when they hadn't done anything wrong? Seriously, people say all the time "I'm leaving after this war.", and some do and some don't.
[/quote]

I don't find any of it coincidental. I think ROK is so screwed adn I don't think ANY party is being 100% honest. I don't think any of the parties really gave two pennies for their members. That is the great travesty of this.

[Mogar]

[quote name='bros2' timestamp='1328223727' post='2913382']
Let me clarify some things raised in this topic, around the time of this post:
1. I do not host Ragnarok, I simply have admin on them to assist them when they have issues, as for the most part, they are admittedly computer illiterate
2. On the server that MK is on, only MK and GOONS are currently on it, the rest of the stuff hosted is either domains that redirect to the MK forums (see www.newpolarorder.net), things that MK uses (Our IRC Server, mumble server, ventrilo server, and teamspeak server), and the forums for CN Radio.
3. Having admin on the forums of alliances can be useful in case of someone with admin screwing something up, then I need to fix it
4. I am lazy, therefore I do not log into the forums of alliances I have admin on very often, usually not unless someone in that alliance alerts me to issues that are occurring
[/quote]
I don't honestly believe you'd abuse it, I simply don't think it's a very good idea in general, alliance forums should stay owned/admined by alliance members.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328228212' post='2913432']
So is it true that Ragnarok pretty much is alright with Adel leading the government and the only ones upset are outside of it and/or would rather Ilyani be in power for their own agenda?
[/quote]
ding ding.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1328229277' post='2913450']
I think it is the reasoning behind the decision to kick out the said member that has led to this !@#$fest. Since a charter is technically an IC thing then it can really only apply to IC matters within this realm and no other though it could be highly amusing if this weren't always so.

Actually, I am wrong, we have never made much of an issue when it comes to kicking from our AAs these who belong to certain OOC European themed ideologies so it is a murky issue I guess.
[/quote]
Good man for that second part.

[Brehon]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328229896' post='2913459']
Yet no one sees the giant conflict of interest of the recently-deposed-because-of-their-actions interviews or are we all trying to emulate partisan news networks.

If this situation is going to be handled reasonably the point your trying to make is redundant.

Even if we legitamize Bob's actions (...eh?) there's still the matter of why a raided nation should pay someone reps, alliance affiliation of the raider and a litany of other issues surrounding this whole event that one would think expedite a quick and easy solution instead of the saber rattling and other nonsense taking place.
[/quote]

Not legitimizing his actions, there was legitimizing his authority to do such actions (just for clarity).

The issue about the raided nation/paying reps is outside (tho clearly linked in) to the RoK !@#$storm.

[bros]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1328230668' post='2913469']
I don't honestly believe you'd abuse it, I simply don't think it's a very good idea in general, alliance forums should stay owned/admined by alliance members.
[/quote]

hence why I don't check their forums often

so they learn

[Autocrat]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1328228714' post='2913439']
Thrash - Could have, no doubt. Doesn't change the second part of that: If Rok top gov made the call and the Emperor endorsed or the Emperor made it, its 100% legal in accordance to the charter of Rok because the Emperor has ultimate authority.
[/quote]

Honest question- do you believe the Emperor of Ragnarok has the authority to break their charter? The charter seems to at the very least strongly imply that the decision to leave the alliance is voluntary ("You may leave Ragnarok during peace-time, provided you have no outstanding debts to its members."). Considering that the Emperor's power derives from the charter, it seems fairly odd that they would be able to break it at will, and it would make the charter fairly silly as a document (it could really be summed up simply as "the emperor can do whatever he wants").

[Krack]

72 hours since the first time I asked ...

[quote]QUICK QUESTION: Is there anyone in Ragnarok (that isn't Bob or Joe*) that believes Bob or Joe are the current leaders of Ragnarok? Or wishes that they were?

It occurs to me that I have yet to see this sentiment expressed in any of the relevant 10+ page threads.

*Assuming for argument's sake that they are actually "in" Ragnarok right now. [/quote]

24 hours since the second time I asked ...

[quote]I asked this earlier in the thread and it was met with crickets chirping, so I ask again ...

Is there anyone who has been in Ragnarok for over a month, and is currently in Ragnarok now, that wants either Bob or Joe to lead their alliance?

Speak up because the silence is deafening. [/quote]

... and not one single RoK member spoke up in defense of Bob or Joe (including the guy who appointed Bob in the first place). I think that speaks for itself; they are both alliance [s]puppets[/s] leaders without an alliance membership to lead.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1328230753' post='2913470']
Not legitimizing his actions, there was legitimizing his authority to do such actions (just for clarity).

The issue about the raided nation/paying reps is outside (tho clearly linked in) to the RoK !@#$storm.
[/quote]
Thanks for getting straight to the point Brehon

For the purposes of this particular forum at least, I agree that Bob as Emperor had the authority to declare Kait a ghost, and that authority provided MK with the justification for attacking her. It cannot be denied, however, that the manner in which he did so caused concern within the alliance (whether or not those concerns were justifiable can be debated elsewhere). Those concerns prompted a series of events that resulted in a regime change. That manner in which that regime change occurred was obviously not ideal and whether it is allowed for under the Charter is debatable (this is probably the case for most involuntary regime changes or coups, otherwise they would be orderly transitions of power). But it is very difficult to argue that a regime change [i]has not[/i] occurred, even if you want to question the desirability or legality of it.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Sir Humphrey

[Brehon]

[quote name='Autocrat' timestamp='1328232551' post='2913491']
Honest question- do you believe the Emperor of Ragnarok has the authority to break their charter? The charter seems to at the very least strongly imply that the decision to leave the alliance is voluntary ("You may leave Ragnarok during peace-time, provided you have no outstanding debts to its members."). Considering that the Emperor's power derives from the charter, it seems fairly odd that they would be able to break it at will, and it would make the charter fairly silly as a document (it could really be summed up simply as "the emperor can do whatever he wants").
[/quote]

Yes. Explicitly in the charter its states the Emperor is the final authority. When a charter doesn't spell out how to change the charter and says the Emperor is in power for life, or until the choose a successor, it is very clear to me the Emperor has the authority to do damn near anything.

Emperors worth their salt also know, just because they "can" do a thing, doesn't mean they "should" do a thing.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1328230668' post='2913469']

Good man for that second part.
[/quote]

Im waiting for that particular !@#$storm to erupt...again. Odd how it always happens to the same AA....