Krack

No, I'm going to say that Matt Miller is an excellent nation builder because he has acquired a tremendous amount of tech during his existence on Planet Bob. The amount of tech that he (or anybody else) has lost over the course of his nation's history says nothing about his nation building skills. The EQ alliances (and their member nations) have had years to demonstrate their ability to nation build. And over this time, they have demonstrated that they (on average) do it worse than the former-Citadel alliances (who have shown excellent efficiency in moving tech from one to another). Which brings me to my original point, which is, just because EQ has the potential to grow much faster than the other side, in the wake of the war, it is ridiculous to assume that it is likely that they will.

Just because you have potential doesn't mean there's a likelihood you'll use it. You had "more potential for tech growth" in the five years prior to the war too (because of the number of nations) and it didn't amount to a tech advantage. Looks to me like the EQ side didn't have the stones to see things through. Good luck fighting the same war again in a year (with less nations/alliances on your side).

You put Cable back in charge of the alliance? LOL - I guess self esteem isn't high in Farkistan right now. Can you get NukeMePlease back too?

This is the wrong thread for this discussion, but the prudent fix is simply to return the NS increase for tech levels past 3k back to 0.0 NS (in other words, none). Under the old calculating rules, high tech nations could not afford to sit with relatively little infrastructure (<10k) and still be relavent. The game mechanics were allowed to get completely out of balance because infra has become essentially meaningless.

It's easy to grin When your ship comes in And you've got the stock market beat. But the man worthwhile Is the man who can smile When his shorts are too tight in the seat. /Pookie, do the honors.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1346339433' post='3026643'] As one of VE's meaningless ties I have to say, you're full of it. VE have always been there for us when we requested help, and I would not hesitate to defend them, were they to request our assistance. [/quote] I'm sure they'd welcome your ankle [s]biting[/s] nibbling in their defense.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1346278581' post='3026461'] I assume by "we" Krack means "Ragnarok." [/quote] I meant SuperFriends.

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416'] Since I was Lord of VE for Karma, I thought I'd give my two cents. My personal motivation for that war was the protection of OV, and that was it. I felt they had been wronged in the lead-up to Karma, and I put my support behind what they felt was the appropriate response to that. If Seth felt that his ZI was best, we would have stood behind that, and if he wanted to continue to negotiate with NPO over a more fair resolution (as is what happened) then we would've stood behind that as well. I personally feared that I might be leading VE to a losing war, but felt that standing up for our ally was more important than winning. Xiphosis was more pro-war than I was (as were some of my fellow Viridians) while several members in C&G (which people tend to forget was also tied to OV) were more for appeasement. Now, we were lucky in several areas: 1. Moo attacked in the middle of TOP-sponsored peace talks, aggravating the Citadel alliances as stated before, 2. after realizing his potential mistake, tried to negotiate with Archon to leave the war and let TORN be a sacrificial lamb (which allowed Archon to then turn around and get TORN to surrender and bow out), and 3. the entire Coalition of Cowards fiasco (that would've gone off [i]much[/i] better had the DoW(s) simply been included in the same post) that basically swung most fence-sitters to our side. Karma could've easily swung the other way, but that would not have affected my decisions in the slightest. I can't speak for anybody else though. As to our failure to join SF, yes, we did take FARK's support for granted. We had been on good relations with the other members beforehand (or we would never have reached that point) and without any tip-off to potential problems with the last member we simply assumed they had no major objections. Obviously, we were wrong. Smooth, being very active at the time, was there when most of the rest of the Viridian delegation wasn't (who had started talks then left for the night), and proceeded to get into a flamefest with several FARK-members. There were people to blame on both sides, but the important thing is when the more level-headed Viridians had returned the damage had been done, and relations with FARK were trashed for months and even years. FARK simply had no respect because of our disbandment, and Smooth and others felt our courage was insulted for the actions of one previous Lord.. [/quote] This is an excellent accounting of what went on. I will add to it, however. There was an "informal get-together" between SFs' leadership and VE, which began with Smooth saying (paraphrase) "Well, we planned this meeting because we heard FARK didn't want us in SFs. So what's the problem?" Things were on the wrong foot from the start. Then we in FARK provided VE with its one and only test for admission in SFs: We asked what would happen if a SFs alliance was at war with another VE ally. VE flunked the test when it said it would "never allow that to happen".* Prompted more than once, the answer never changed ... even after we said we couldn't let an alliance into SFs with that stance. Smooth just kept becoming more abrasive. This "informal" meeting went soooooo well that the FARK government who was at the meeting suggested letting Smooth talk to FARK's general membership (in Q&A format) - because prior to that meeting the membership had been slightly in favor of admitting VE. We figured it was easier to show the membership for themselves than try and explain it to them. And in spectacular fashion, Smooth flamed out in front of the entire membership - turning what had been a pro-admitting-VE crowd into a "we don't want to have anything to do with them" crowd literally overnight. Any notion that FARK had an antagonistic posture towards VE prior to this Q&A is simply inaccurate. The posture towards VE (and GOD) became antagonistic when Xiph came in and decided to basically insult the entire FARK leadership because of the denial of SFs membership. As I remember it, prior to that tirade, the alliance had a "they seem okay, but we don't want to be tied to them until they prove themselves in a war" attitude towards VE. That was the attitude I had. [size="1"]* Had Smooth said "Of course, we'd defend the SFs alliance 100% however we're asked," there's a good chance VE would have been in SFs by the end of that month.[/size] [quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416']And one last thing, I don't understand why some continue to label us as fence-sitters. [/quote] Here's why ... [quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416'] We don't change sides arbitrarily, and try to stand by our allies [color="#FF0000"]whenever possible[/color]. After that, [color="#FF0000"]we simply tried to get the rest of our allies out of the war[/color], not demanding any reps. Then the last two wars, one where [color="#FF0000"]we tried to politically defend GOD while trying to please our other allies at the same time[/color], then this last one where we went all-in for GOD one last time. [/quote] -------------------- [quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416'] Is VE perfect? No, but then nobody is. We do try just as hard as anybody else, though. [/quote] I believe that you believe this, but that doesn't make it accurate. [quote name='Mr Vicarious' timestamp='1346279328' post='3026471'] Smooth is on record as to intentionally torpedoing that Q&A due to his own dislike for the idea of joining SF. That may or may not be true, but it is his claim. [/quote] This is the first time I've ever heard this, but I honestly don't believe he's capable of intentionally doing as poor a job and wrecking a budding relationship as he did. It had to have been unintentional. Either that or he deserved the Tony award for that year.

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1346272972' post='3026438'] FARK fought a great war and did all anyone could have expected and more. I didn't intend to imply otherwise (although I can see where you could get that impression) I was just pointing out that Krack didn't know what he was talking about. [/quote] Yet you didn't refute anything I said. I know exactly what I'm talking about. I hate to break it to you, but for global influence purposes, SFs was FARK and Rok and a handful of their friends. GOD existed because of its friendship with FARK and RoK for years (not vice versa). KARMA was won because FARK pulled Gramlins to our side despite GOD's best efforts to sabotage the endeavor. This went on for months. Then GOD destroyed SFs (and in turn, its own alliance) by making it well known that its relationship to VE was more valuable to it than its relationship to FARK. So that's what it got - GOD retained its relationship to VE and SFs lost FARK. How'd that work out for them? Hint: It worked out exactly as could be predicted (and was predicted). [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1346278187' post='3026460'] Oh dear God, how could anyone believe that...oh wait, it's Krack. By the eve of the war everything was in place to ambush NPO and it was pulled off magnificently. NPO had antagonized far more than Citadel by that point, they weren't even listening to the warnings being given by their closest allies to expect a trap. [/quote] Oh, hey look ... it's the guy who sat in SFs leadership right up until it looked obvious we were about to get curbstomped, at which point he jumped to the other side. KARMA was no trap; the Karma side was going to get drilled right up until Moo insulted Crymson. Even some alliances we believed were solidly in our camp (like Gramlins) turned into weather vanes when the war appeared inevitable.

Just remember that he was such an annoyance the first time that everyone in his alliance basically begged the opposing side to remove him from Bob so they could go on and try and rebuild their alliance. In fact, I don't think that war ever officially ended - we just quit attacking them because we felt bad for them.

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1346213381' post='3026267'] Oh my goodness. Krack. Shut up. Seriously. This is years old stuff. Just stop. You're making the world cringe right now. [/quote] Sorry, I reserve the right to make fun of VE and GOD whenever I feel like it. VE for being exactly what they've claimed they weren't for years. And GOD for believing them and ruining their other relationships because of it. In just the last page, VE apparently wants credit for: 1. Being defenseless and having half of Planet Bob come to their defense and save them from being curbstomped from existence, and 2. Being such a great friend that, rather than defend GOD, they instead selected which alliances got to pound them. Such humanitarians. It doesn't get any more ludicrous/funny than that. Is it old? Yeah, sure (maybe). But it's not like VE (or GOD) is any different today than they were four years ago. And it was their actions four years ago that have put them in the position that they are today. This world moves at a glacial pace. That's not my fault; I didn't create Planet Bob.

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1346180772' post='3026016'] I remember VE being the face of Karma for NPO up until Archon’s post stole their thunder. VE deserves tons of credit for that war imo. [/quote] Yes, that's probably because NPO was doing its typical "build up mild support against an isolated alliance minding its own business ... and then curbstomp them". Do we need to run through the history of this technique? Your leadership wanted to roll VE to stave off boredom - why would anyone else be the "face" of the war (that you were intentionally initiating)? [quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1346207722' post='3026226'] It did look like a losing war until the last second but it was still a war that we wanted. [/quote] A war [i]you[/i] wanted maybe. The rest of us wanted a war we were likely to win. That's why some of us spent the previous five months trying to build a relationship with alliances, like Gramlins, while GOD made things as difficult as possible.* [size="1"]*With the exception of building the relationship with Sparta, which I give GOD and RIA tremendous credit for.[/size] [b]tl;dr:[/b] Just because you were stupid and wanted to pick a fight you couldn't win, didn't mean the rest of us were similarly stupid and short-sighted.

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1346165109' post='3025982'] Your problem is you fail to recognize that an alliance's culture is an accumulation of it's member's experiences and being that VE is one of the few alliances to disband and then re-emerge [b]successfully[/b], her members have a chip on their shoulders about the awful decision to disband and having that experience, are probably the least likely of alliances to lower their flag and ride off into the sunset. [/quote] Successfully? Maybe if your measuring stick is GGA. [quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1346165109' post='3025982'] Anyways I know it makes you happy that FARK wouldn't allow VE into SF way back when. I believe it's been about 3 1/2 years, but please accept my apologies for taking this long to say, "way to go buddy, you really got us. Congratulations." [/quote] Well, you've certainly showed yourselves to be the ultra-loyal allies we were looking for back then. Hard to believe we passed you up. It doesn't make me [i]happy[/i]; it proves me right. [quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1346166536' post='3025987'] You are attacking us for things I'm fairly proud about, and I'm sure people in GOD are fairly proud about. Karma was the high water mark of our relationship with SF, I don't think anyone in either alliance thinks of it as a negative. [/quote] KARMA was a terrific accomplishment, there's no doubt about it. The notion that VE had anything to do with it (or in someway thinks it deserves part of the credit) is laughable. On behalf of the KARMA alliances, we cordially thank you for standing there defenseless so that NPO would eventually get so bored that it just had to annihilate you, granting us the opportunity to jump in and try and save you in a war we were certain we were going to lose right up until Crymson started behaving like a 15 year old girl that didn't get asked to the prom. If that's the highlight of the GOD/VE relationship, then I'm embarrassed to say VE's commitment to the relationship was even weaker than I thought it was. [quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1346166536' post='3025987'] I think doing what we did in TOP-Polar exemplified the high level of commitment we had to our external ally even though it drove the deepest nail into the coffin of PB. And with treaties with three of five (might have even been three of four) of the members of a bloc, why would we not inquire about joining? And you also fail to realize that we were invited to apply a mere 9 months later, but recognized that it wasn't for us to join someone else's club. [/quote] I think you confuse "fail to realize" with [i]don't really care[/i]. You're an alliance of fence sitters. You sit on a fence and try to get a bunch of little meaningless ties to everyone so you can pick an choose who and when a friend is actually a friend and when they are just a treaty partner that is no longer valuable. It's why you have no strong allies and why the allies you do have only keep you around as long as you present value as meatshields to them. What's funny is that your alliance-mate (above) views this as a "successful" existance on Planet Bob; one must assume he echoes the sentiments of the rest of your alliance. The rest of us are laughing at you (and have been for years now). A tiger never changes his stripes - you were a bunch of disloyal fence sitters 4 years ago, and you're still a bunch of disloyal fence sitters. If that floats your boat? Terrific, enjoy yourselves. I don't even like GOD. But what's right, is right - you owe your current existence to them.

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1346142857' post='3025947'] Have you ever had a friend, that thought you were so cool, and tried to get you to be friends with their other crappy friends? Who did not have terrible intentions but just kept screwing things up and making your life miserable to the point where you want to punch them in the face? I believe to VE, GOD was that friend. [/quote] Yeah, that's great ... but you left out the part where, without GOD protecting them, VE takes an epic curbstomp beating in April 2009 and then likely disbands again. In light of that fact, you make VE sound like real feminine hygiene products.

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1346128441' post='3025897'] Plus riding alongside VE's war in Karma wasn't totally a good idea and something they all basically wanted. [/quote] Correct. It wasn't totally a good idea. And it wasn't something they all basically wanted. The KARMA side did not have anything close to winning numbers until Moo screwed everyone on his side by antagonizing the Citadel alliances on the eve of war. Before that screw-up KARMA was a losing proposition for what became the eventual winners. [quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1346128441' post='3025897'] Or wait.. Did you leave out something? [/quote] Yes, I left out my third favorite part of the GOD/VE relationship ... the time when VE got to play Ray Stanz to GOD's NYC and was allowed to choose the form of the destructor.

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1345234421' post='3022864'] GOD has brought this all on themselves, Suryanto. You have it backwards my friend. [/quote] I'm not sure what my favorite part of the GOD & VE relationship was. It was either the time GOD basically irreparably alienated FARK with its insistence that VE be allowed into SuperFriends (pretty much the first step in the eventual deterioration, and then destruction, of the block) .... or ... it was the time that everyone in SFs, for no other reason than they were allied to GOD, fought what was believed to be an unwinnable war (KARMA) to defend VE, an alliance that most of us did not trust and who has fence sat for its entire existence. I'll have to think about it.

I enjoyed this announcement more when it had image links.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1341527206' post='3004200'] I may be alone in this, but I voted for TOP. It's not that they're so much more on MK's dick than the other alliances listed, but after all the potential they had post-Karma, it's a shame to see them squander it to become just another foot solider. That's even after they got baited into war by MK/Co. [/quote] [img]http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss93/alohaalliance/Aloha/AlohaProp/coattailriders.png[/img] You're not wrong. The lead spot on the coattails belongs to TOP. They had it all and now they can't do anything without MK; and it's pretty much entirely their own fault. Of all the named alliances, they'd have the most to lose if MK disappeared tomorrow.

Sorry to see you go ... [center][img]http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/dancing/1zl92fn.gif[/img] Valhalla's Grave[/center]

[img]http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss93/alohaalliance/Aloha/AlohaProp/farkcouncil.png[/img] Congratulations on another month.

[quote name='Cotillion' timestamp='1341111288' post='3000902'] you can do better than this [/quote] Is this one of those magic times when you're using [i]sarcasm[/i] only you mean something completely different than the definition of sarcasm?

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1341107678' post='3000885'] Finish him! [/quote] He typed a lot of words and basically said nothing. It looked like he did though - which I assume was the purpose.

[quote name='Tequila Mockingbird' timestamp='1340860164' post='2999124'] R.I.P. "the !@#$ we've done is amazing" thread 1.0 [/quote] Shhhhh ... you're busy pretending it's fictional.

I think the most interesting thing in this thread is that apparently MK is so bored that they let Rebel Virginia in so he could *@#$ post in their name.

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1340765642' post='2997754'] I served under Crymson and for all my issues I had with him then, he ran circles around you. TOP at least did something with it's NS that will be the stuff of legends. [/quote] Wow. Arguably the dumbest post I've ever seen on OWF (and that includes HoT's posts). When did "being gifted the #1 statistical alliance and then making everyone hate you (for no reason) and then completely destroying your own alliance (for no reason) and then becoming subservient to the guys who did it to you" become [i]the stuff of legends[/i]? LMAO. It's legendary alright.