Will the Real Ragnarok Please stand up?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1328226353' post='2913413']
So, you are saying I should not listen to what Adel said? I should go off only what Leet Guy posted (who you stated is not a moralist, thus there is no telling where those logs came from *twisting is fun isn't it)? There is only an OOC issue here? There isn't sensationalism going on in this thread while people focus on only one aspect of this?

My post was simply, me telling everyone to drop the OOC crap and simply look at what was going on in the game, which is in direct connection to the interview and discussion about this topic last night. When you pull all the OOC stuff away, it is amazing the mass amount of issues that still are around which people are refusing, lying or completely side stepping.

Everyone is caught up on the Kait portion and calling nothing but OOC. However the current Empress of Rok... their ultimate authority stated plainly and clearly; Kait discussed and/or posted to high gov about her intention to leave after the war (csn). So Adel is lying? What are you saying exactly Schattenman? It really begs the question: Why is everyone being caught up in it? It isnot for OOC stuff (and any ooc stuff is simply terrible and pathetic), but because it covers up the rest of the BS actions that have gone on and the crap people have pulled (no matter which side of the issue).

Anyone can make up what anyone has said. Whether they are or not is not equal to the ability to actually do so. Funny thing is I am not going off anything but what I was told on air, last night, by Adel. These aren't even my words they were her responses to the question. And again.. this is from Rok's Emperor who is in the "know" about this. If that is not the case... man things are even worse than I already have stated.
[/quote]
First of all, my apologies for coming on so strong; there are those who insist that this is a show, but I assure you this issue and what I have seen of it has incited the greatest stirring in me. I did not realize you were basing your post on a conversation with Adel. The fact remains that Joe and Bob and MK may all have had previous issues with Kait and/or Hoo, but they have not made this situation about those issues, [OOC]they have made them about current OOC events. We may [i]wish [/i]that that crap didn't get dragged in here, and with that wish and $2.00 you can buy a cup of coffee. It's here.[/OOC] Our desires don't change what is actually happening, nor does Adel's understandable shying away from it out of discomfort or desire to spare further discussion.

I understand your point of view; however, I simply find your insistence that this coup is nothing more than a battle of jealous egos to be a sophomoric oversimplification. Maybe some coups happen over nothing more than power-hunger, but it is very clear in this instance that even though Bob and Joe were unpopular with some folks, they were not acted against until they committed a specific, over-the-line action, and once they were kicked, [i]someone [/i]had to take charge. Similarly, it is also clear that there were people who liked Bob and Joe, but they're either complacent post-incident, left, or didn't like them enough to care either way. The broad-base statement that either side is doing this "just because they don't give a $%&@ about the members" is wildly minimalist, especially when the central issue is the treatment of a member. Did they perhaps disregard the membership at some points? Sure. Are they acting in pointed disregard? No; the passions are so inflamed because each is trying to do what they think is best.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1328234458' post='2913515']
Stole the words outta my mouth. Last I checked, francoism itself also shares such an ideal.
[/quote]
"Democratic autocracy" is the term, and I've employed it several times in this thread. Typed by Vlad or not, it's the truth.

[quote name='welshgazza1992' timestamp='1328260666' post='2913720']
Nope, we're just more sensible to stay away from here.
[/quote]
As Red said on the radio, if you're not telling your story, someone else is. The whole alliance doesn't need to be posting, but you guys need someone out here, and badly. You're getting hammered because people don't understand the simplest of factors in this mess, and their ignorance is due to Rok's silence.

[quote name='rapmanej' timestamp='1328285868' post='2913808']
Even though you are grasping at straws and have had to rely on arguing over semantics.....

What could MK has possibly given Bob and Joe in return? You have set up a logical fallacy involving an either/or choice, but have given no logical explanation for either one being true.
[/quote]
No, he hasn't. Joe literally said [OOC]"In honor of the glorious Biodad, we have made a sacrifice in his honor: [Kait and Hoo's nation links]"[/OOC]. Valt hasn't "set up" anything, Joe and Bob "sacrificed" Kait and Hoo. Leet Guy has [i]already [/i]posted and confirmed that direct quote on this forum. Valt's post addresses just what a "sacrifice" is.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1328223124' post='2913371']
And Leet Guy, I'm sure you know, is no . . . wait for it . . . moralist.
[/quote]

You have your mother to thank for that

[quote name='Da DreadLord' timestamp='1328286452' post='2913811']
So my guess, MK threatened to roll RoK or someone else was/is going to and bob/joe wanted protection from MK. But I'll let Joe explain that.
[/quote]

I've already sufficiently explained how complete !@#$%^&* this view is. No threats were made. They were served to us on a silver platter, and we pounced.

[tamerlane]

So let me get this straight, Schatt...

As leader of his alliance, Joe Stupid should have put more effort into defending his members instead of abandoning them to get hurt by a cold, cruel outside world? Well thank Allarchon bioAdel was around to fight the good fight and bring her lost children home...or at least try

Edited February 3, 2012 by tamerlane

[Schattenmann]

See, Tamerlane gets it.

[Brehon]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1328287475' post='2913823']
...

I understand your point of view; however, I simply find your insistence that this coup is nothing more than a battle of jealous egos to be a sophomoric oversimplification. ....
[/quote]

I am a simple person and I actually believe in the keep it simple principle.

Joe/Bob in some way removed Kait
MK gets involved by hitting Kait
Adel leaves
Boards go down
Joe/Bob are removed
Adel returns and is made Empress

Those are simple facts, everything else is commentary.

Kait pays for the boards (hosting I believe?) pretty easy to see what happened (and this is JUST my view)

Kait become a target of shenanigans (ooc or otherwise)
Adel leaves and notifies all
Kait see's she has a direct ally
Through whatever or orders, boards are brought down
Kait restores them, removes Joe/Bob
Kait's influences created Adel the Empress

Yup, there is NOTHING but ego in this and cases of revenge. Joe/Bob's ego and/or vengeance, Kaits ego and/or vengeance and Adel's ego and/or vengeance. I don't buy for one minute this was about protecting the members not from any side. In the end who really suffers are the members.

Simply put I find all of Rok gov (involved in this) shameful, petty and pretty disgusting.

[tamerlane]

Joe should have paid more attention to them. What a terrible leader and role model for his members.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Da DreadLord' timestamp='1328286452' post='2913811']
You should ask Joe that. Cause he wouldn't shut up about how he 'had no choice' and how he did it 'to save RoK'.

So my guess, MK threatened to roll RoK or someone else was/is going to and bob/joe wanted protection from MK. But I'll let Joe explain that.
[/quote]

Maybe he meant to save RoK from kaitlin? Interesting to say the least.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='rapmanej' timestamp='1328285868' post='2913808']
Even though you are grasping at straws and have had to rely on arguing over semantics.....

What could MK has possibly given Bob and Joe in return? You have set up a logical fallacy involving an either/or choice, but have given no logical explanation for either one being true.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma[/url]
[/quote]

Respect/Brownie points from MK.

Everyone knows RoK is on a lot of people's hit list, and not in a position of power at all. Sometimes you have to do something drastic to change the status quo.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1328288510' post='2913835']
Maybe he meant to save RoK from kaitlin? Interesting to say the least.
[/quote]
But again, why would he need to "save" Rok from someone that he and Bob insist had already signaled her intent to leave? Van Hoo was in discussions with OBR for a protectorate for his new alliance, things were delayed (we know why). There's no demonstrable "threat" from Kait.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Seerow]

Bob and Joe may have wanted to garner good will from MK, but like 1337 said no threats were made.

I did recently find out however where some of the confusion came from. Bob and Joe claim that MK approached them first, while most of us were like "Wait no we didn't". Apparently Ninja Colt (a regular member with no rank or authority at all at the time and presently) asked if we could attack Kait via IRC. I can only guess he was half-joking and was surprised when they turned around and said "Yep here you go!". So while a member of MK did technically ask first, it was by no means an official request or demand from MK, and for all intents and purposes they served up Hoo/Kait based entirely on a request from a single individual.

It is possible that they were unaware that NC had retired from government semi-recently, but in that case a quick reference of our [url=http://mushroom-kingdom.info/boards/index.php?topic=1908.msg81117#msg81117]Government List[/url], or even just asking, would have cleared that right up.

[Brehon]

[quote]It is possible that they were unaware that NC had retired from government semi-recently, but in that case a quick reference of our Government List, or even just asking, would have cleared that right up. [/quote]

Communication... the first sign Rok gov actually gives a damn about their people. It didn't exist, the care didn't exist.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1328288293' post='2913832']
I am a simple person and I actually believe in the keep it simple principle.

Joe/Bob in some way removed Kait
MK gets involved by hitting Kait
Adel leaves
Boards go down
Joe/Bob are removed
Adel returns and is made Empress


[/quote]

MK was involved prior to the attack on kaitlin. They were the ones who passed on certain OOC information.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1328288752' post='2913839']
It is possible that they were unaware that NC had retired from government semi-recently
[/quote]

It was announced, however, when I announced our FOK! cancellation, so that argument flies right out the window too.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1328288916' post='2913842']
MK was involved prior to the attack on kaitlin. They were the ones who passed on certain OOC information.
[/quote]

I don't understand how that involved us with RoK's internal affairs.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328288971' post='2913845']
I don't understand how that involved us with RoK's internal affairs.
[/quote]

I'm not saying MK is responsible for the current chaos within RoK. The current situation is nothing more than a domino effect from that information being passed on. The current mess is indicative of a much larger problem within RoK.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1328289198' post='2913850']
I'm not saying MK is responsible for the current chaos within RoK. The current situation is nothing more than a domino effect from that information being passed on.
[/quote]

You're not saying, but you're certainly implying. Get over yourself.

Edit - Reading your edit, I certainly do agree with that bit. It only exposed the larger systemic issues within the alliance.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Leet Guy

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328289267' post='2913852']
You're not saying, but you're certainly implying. Get over yourself.

Edit - Reading your edit, I certainly do agree with that bit. It only exposed the larger systemic issues within the alliance.
[/quote]

Can you honestly say that the information your members gained via OOC means did not in someway cause this debacle? Bob and Joe offered Kaitlin up but it takes two to tango last time I checked.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1328290015' post='2913861']
Can you honestly say that the information your members gained via OOC means did not in someway cause this debacle? Bob and Joe offered Kaitlin up but it takes two to tango last time I checked.
[/quote]

Regarding the KK situation I'll give you that, I was more focused on the larger collapse of RoK.

[Valtamdraugr]

Personally, I find the notion of giving ANY member over for political gain to be abhorrent. That is how *I* saw the actions of Bob and Joe. Bob may have been in a position to declare Kait a non-member... but the fact remains that she did not, in fact, resign but posted her intention of resigning(in a restricted area). The fact also remains that Kait was offered to MK as a sacrifice, not a ghost. This, I find equally abhorrent.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Valtamdraugr' timestamp='1328290586' post='2913871']
Personally, I find the notion of giving ANY member over for political gain to be abhorrent. That is how *I* saw the actions of Bob and Joe. Bob may have been in a position to declare Kait a non-member... but the fact remains that she did not, in fact, resign but posted her intention of resigning(in a restricted area). The fact also remains that Kait was offered to MK as a sacrifice, not a ghost. This, I find equally abhorrent.
[/quote]

She also made it public knowledge in our IRC channel. Not that that refutes your point... it should just not be omitted.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1328290173' post='2913865']
Regarding the KK situation I'll give you that, I was more focused on the larger collapse of RoK.
[/quote]

Heh, relax, can't hold MK responsible for RoK's internal failings.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1328291303' post='2913876']
Heh, relax, can't hold MK responsible for RoK's internal failings.
[/quote]

We so could. And it'd be about as rational as 75% of the posts in this thread.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1328291379' post='2913877']
We so could. And it'd be about as rational as 75% of the posts in this thread.
[/quote]

I thought that is what we did anyway?

[Jackie Moon]

As a former government member of Ragnarok who was removed by Kaitlin after her reclaim of the Ragnarok throne, a move which was supported wholeheartedly by my 'friends' Joe and Bob, I must say it is really great to see this turn out the way it did.

[Bill Wallace]

Bob and Joe did indeed offer up Kait and if I remember correctly, Ardus called them out on it as a poor attempt to hang with the "cool kids". Didn't stop MK from going after Kait, but at least they made it clear that though the sacrificial lamb was a nice gift, it was in no way going to change anything.

Whether the coup was legal or right to do, do any of you really care? The fact is Bob misplayed a bad hand, it blew up in his face, and Ragnarok still exists, albeit as a stumbling and bumbling AA right now, but they are still here, and that makes some of us happy for obvious reasons.