Citizens United

[Sir Humphrey]

This seems fair, and I was surprised it didn't happen earlier given the GATO/TLR announcement.

But it does make it look more like a poxy war (rather than a cold war).

[Ellis]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1318565805' post='2824603']
But they are aiding Legion's opponents without actively being involved in combat. If it's okay for those alliances to aid Tetris without being formally pulled into the war, then it's okay for Polar to aid Legion without being formally pulled into the war. Of course we all know that in reality Polar is going to get attacked because the people running the new power structure can't take in what they dish out.

It's amusingly tragic really. During VE/NpO, anyone that sent aid to NpO's side, even if it was sent for a tech deal, was either attacked or forced to pay reparations. But when Schattenmann mentions to one of VE's friends' protectorate that tech dealing with alliances actively in combat with CoJ could be seen as an act of war and probably shouldn't be done, Schatt's alliance is subjected to stricter surrender terms and forced to make an apology.
[/quote]

I didn't know VE and ODN were friends

But yeah, they were almost different wars, or a least two completely different fronts of the same war, like how TOP/C&G wasn't really the same as NpO v \m/

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1318565805' post='2824603']
It's amusingly tragic really. During VE/NpO, anyone that sent aid to NpO's side, even if it was sent for a tech deal, was either attacked or forced to pay reparations. But when Schattenmann mentions to one of VE's friends' protectorate that tech dealing with alliances actively in combat with CoJ could be seen as an act of war and probably shouldn't be done, Schatt's alliance is subjected to stricter surrender terms and forced to make an apology.
[/quote]
This isn't true... Fark gave war aid to RoK while we were fighting PC. They weren't chased down or forced to pay reparations... FOK approached Fark and asked them to stop, and Fark told them to deal with it or declare... no one took them up on the offer. So while your idea is true in principle it's not exactly correct.

[Heft]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1318565101' post='2824582']
The exact same puffery that's been coming from your allies for nearly a week?

Oh come on Heft, I like you, but you're trying far too hard on this one.
[/quote]
Oddly enough, as I understand it the external aid that has been sent to us prior to this alliance has been relatively limited. The Asgaard aid highlighted by Polar is actually related to tech deals, and wasn't even deliberate wartime aid (Asgaard aren't even allied to us, unless I've missed more than I realized while being retired). And our allies haven't strutted across the forums boasting about such things either.

[Nihilist Tyrant]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1318558041' post='2824380']
So some of the Legion are bill-locked? Kind of ironic considering some of the propaganda put out by NpO
[/quote]

Considering that polar is the first to aid Legion while others have been aiding the other side, I think you are grasping at straws. In other words, those fighting against Legion needed aid just days into the war, some as they declared, but now Legion is getting some aid and it is ironic. Legion never proclaimed to be the best, average, or anything, but those who thought that they are nothing needed help first. Now that is ironic, don't you think. Just a little bit...

[conistonslim]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318565380' post='2824591']
My nation is small. Investment in it should be during peace time.

Smart members will realize how this world works and that their tiny nation will not win the war. I realize it. I rather send 300 tech to assist large nations in my alliance to build up than have my nation grow. I can buy wonders, build a war chest, and assist my fellow alliance members more effectively this way.

Members are family and should realize that the family comes first and not their nation.


This war and all its AIDS are futile puff.
[/quote]
Assisting micro nations during conflict is not about winning the war, sorry you don't see that.

[Farrin Xies]

This is not the NpO announcement the OWF hungered for.

[Mogar]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1318565746' post='2824602']
I might be wrong but I seem to recall using this during GW1 as well. But yes, at the very latest this trick has been used since GW2 when nations were much smaller on average and a large portion of your nations could benefit from it.
[/quote]
good memory, but back then a 3m aid package was incredibly rare, I think most aid packages were far less than 1m and soldiers.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Farrin Xies' timestamp='1318566689' post='2824614']
This is not the NpO announcement the OWF hungered for.
[/quote]

It could turn into one if some alliaces see it as an act of war.

[Pingu]

[quote name='Farrin Xies' timestamp='1318566689' post='2824614']
This is not the NpO announcement the OWF hungered for.
[/quote]

Bloodthirsty, warmongering Pacifican butcher. Won't somebody think of the children? Particularly the plump, juicy babies?

[Flonker]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1318566463' post='2824610']
Oddly enough, as I understand it the external aid that has been sent to us prior to this alliance has been relatively limited. The Asgaard aid highlighted by Polar is actually related to tech deals, and wasn't even deliberate wartime aid (Asgaard aren't even allied to us, unless I've missed more than I realized while being retired). And our allies haven't strutted across the forums boasting about such things either.
[/quote]

Interesting. Go back and look at my first post in this thread, the one with the big jpg in it. You'll quite plainly see Asgard aiding both troops and cash. When did tech deals require a troop compliment?

[Jaiar]

[quote name='conistonslim' timestamp='1318566578' post='2824613']
Assisting micro nations during conflict is not about winning the war, sorry you don't see that.
[/quote]
Your members should be strong. A small nation can endure.

They're family? It sounds nice to treat nations like that, but to run an effective alliance your members will need to understand how everything works. Aiding them and seeing that money effectively evaporate after 2 days of fighting is a waste. If you're members do not understand how valuable money is and how it is best used post war (for small nations), then your alliance is dead already.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Jaiar

[conistonslim]

[quote name='Farrin Xies' timestamp='1318566689' post='2824614']
This is not the NpO announcement the OWF hungered for.
[/quote]Indeed quite a few alliances are more than a little disappointed, including Pacifica?

[Jaiar]

[quote name='Flonker' timestamp='1318566875' post='2824618']
Interesting. Go back and look at my first post in this thread, the one with the big jpg in it. You'll quite plainly see Asgard aiding both troops and cash. When did tech deals require a troop compliment?
[/quote]
You shouldn't worry about the aid. You need to worry about how to win the war at the upper tiers. This war is looking more like a stalemate and it shouldn't.

[HeroofTime55]

Smaller nations have to be aided to keep them in the alliance - Nobody is going to stay in an alliance they feel is leaving them out to dry. Funds to small nations is to serve membership retention purposes, by making them feel important.

Anyway, this move was rather brilliant. Good on you Polaris.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1318565805' post='2824603']
But they are aiding Legion's opponents without actively being involved in combat. If it's okay for those alliances to aid Tetris without being formally pulled into the war, then it's okay for Polar to aid Legion without being formally pulled into the war. Of course we all know that in reality Polar is going to get attacked because the people running the new power structure can't take in what they dish out.

It's amusingly tragic really. During VE/NpO, anyone that sent aid to NpO's side, even if it was sent for a tech deal, was either attacked or forced to pay reparations. But when Schattenmann mentions to one of VE's friends' protectorate that tech dealing with alliances actively in combat with CoJ could be seen as an act of war and probably shouldn't be done, Schatt's alliance is subjected to stricter surrender terms and forced to make an apology.
[/quote]

Oh get over yourself. We're all mad because we wanted a nice big war, and instead there's an isolated incident involving just a handful of alliances, with all the potential alliances who could escalate (see: Polar) resigning themselves to sending out aid and waiting for the end. That's really all there is to it. If Polar is attacked with this aid being used as a CB, I will issue both you and their alliance a personal apology in World Affairs.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Hereno

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1318558026' post='2824377']
This wasn't necessary.
[/quote]

Agreed


Good luck anyway Polar.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Omniscient1

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318566879' post='2824619']
Your members should be strong. A small nation can endure.

They're family? It sounds nice to treat nations like that, but to run an effective alliance your members will need to understand how everything works. Aiding them and seeing that money effectively evaporate after 2 days of fighting is a waste. If you're members do not understand how valuable money is and how it is best used post war (for small nations), then your alliance is dead already.
[/quote]
An effective alliance is both a family and army that works together. You don't punish people for their ignorance by letting them get stepped on, you teach them to use the money. It is a sad day when members must learn to fend for themselves. Thats the purpose of an [i]alliance[/i]. To watch your own.

[Anhur]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318565670' post='2824601']
They hate everyone that leaves and voices a contrary opinion. If they hate me, so be it.

NPO is great; my leaving them does not change my overall positive opinion of them.

And yes, they did do aid trains.
[/quote]

I don't hate you, Jaiar. In fact, I have a lot of respect for many former Pacificans!


[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1318566845' post='2824617']
Bloodthirsty, warmongering Pacifican butcher. Won't somebody think of the children? Particularly the plump, juicy babies?
[/quote]

Now you're talkin'!

[Perceus]

Make it rain on them guys!

[Heft]

[quote name='Flonker' timestamp='1318566875' post='2824618']
Interesting. Go back and look at my first post in this thread, the one with the big jpg in it. You'll quite plainly see Asgard aiding both troops and cash. When did tech deals require a troop compliment?
[/quote]
I would check but that doesn't have any bearing on most of my statement. I don't really care what the aid is for - there was less of it and it wasn't paraded in public as a way to hide the lack of proper intervention. If what you say is correct, then it just means that a non-ally was taking more decisive action for our side than Polar was for yours.

[janax]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1318565805' post='2824603']
But they are aiding Legion's opponents without actively being involved in combat. If it's okay for those alliances to aid Tetris without being formally pulled into the war, then it's okay for Polar to aid Legion without being formally pulled into the war. Of course we all know that in reality Polar is going to get attacked because the people running the new power structure can't take in what they dish out.

It's amusingly tragic really. During VE/NpO, anyone that sent aid to NpO's side, even if it was sent for a tech deal, was either attacked or forced to pay reparations. But when Schattenmann mentions to one of VE's friends' protectorate that tech dealing with alliances actively in combat with CoJ could be seen as an act of war and probably shouldn't be done, Schatt's alliance is subjected to stricter surrender terms and forced to make an apology.
[/quote]

TLR was aware it was an act of war. Polar declined to act on it. That isn't hypocrisy, it was giving Polar the finger and telling them to do something about it. Just because Polar declined to attack TLR and GATO for it, doesn't mean that suddenly TLR/GATO/Others suddenly lose the right to prosecute the war militarily if they choose. (They aren't choosing to, but they haven't lost the "right" to do so.)
Just because Alliance A doesn't attack Alliance B for X act, doesn't mean that Alliance B forfeits their rights to act on the same CB.


You enforce reps with threats of war. If you have no ability to force your rep demands, then no one pays you. This is not rocket science, especially during a war.

If someone from my alliance aids a nation at war, while we were not at war, I would try to make it right. If one of our nations aids a nation during a global war we are involved in, you are getting the reps only if you can force the issue.

[Jaiar]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1318567196' post='2824625']
Smaller nations have to be aided to keep them in the alliance - Nobody is going to stay in an alliance they feel is leaving them out to dry. Funds to small nations is to serve membership retention purposes, by making them feel important.

Anyway, this move was rather brilliant. Good on you Polaris.
[/quote]
If your members need a $3mil slot to feel important then they are a waste. There is no point in retaining a member (small nation) that cannot understand how aiding them during war is effectively waste.

Going from 1000 infra to zero means nothing. They are better off just getting destroyed or going to peace mode and sitting out the war.

It's pointless for them to fight. If you think about it, you will realize it. Wars are not won against small nations. If wars could be won then GOONS would have been defeated. Even without Umbrella/MK aiding them, that war/front had no win written all over it.

This aid by both sides is useless.

But, by all means aid all small nations with no will or strength just so they can be retained and be parasites.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Jaiar

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318559103' post='2824418']
Your ally requested and you obliged. Don't see why there should be any hate in this thread, well done NpO.
[/quote]

Does it really need a topic though? Did GATO and TLR really need a topic either?

[R3nowned]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318568003' post='2824647']
Blah blah blah
[/quote]
Try leading an alliance and trying to succeed without giving any thought to your members. Member retention is important to win a war, and even more important to win future wars. Losing members - even if they're small nations - adds more pressure for you to surrender.