Announcing Treaties on the OWF

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1318052469' post='2820561']
It's unreasonable to hold a person to a document that they're not aware of existing.
[/quote]

Very true, but completely off-point.

You dont hold your attackers to the treaty. You hold your treaty partners to the treaty. Regardless of how well or poorly publicised it may be, they have to know about it. They signed it.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Zoomzoomzoom]

Best option would be to eliminate the CN wiki. It holds no purpose other than to give a few admins there a sense of control over other people's pages.

All alliances should make their treaty/charter forums open to the unregistered public. Perhaps forum links on CN alliance info pages would help facilitate this. There's no reason to assume the CN wiki would be more informational than the actual forums of CN alliances.

[Xiphosis]

[quote]The CN wiki used to be regularly updated with treaties and events but the NG-UPN war isn't even on there and it isn't generally used as much as it used to be for the same reasons that alliances steer clear of the OWF[/quote]

Wiki is generally fairly reliable. Most alliances at this point keep theirs up to date, and the staff usually catch the ones who don't.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318050985' post='2820538']
I'm unsure why you seem so upset that I mentioned that your alliance recently downgraded its treaty with MHA. By your own logic this information should have already been known to everyone due to the "grapevine" so why the attitude?


While reading this paragraph I felt like you were stomping your feet in some childlike manner in order to get your point across.
[/quote]

Yeah sorry I just got in from a cruddy day at work when I made that post, not to mention the past day or two you aren't the only one who has come to me saying "hey why didn't you announce it, you should announce it because I think you should" and I've got a pretty good idea why.

We still hold a treaty with MHA and didn't see any point announcing the downgrade, had we cancelled the treaty outright it would've been announced but it wasn't so we didn't. It's just the way we do things.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318011045' post='2819888']
Rather than bore you all with a longwinded OP I'd like to pose this simple question.

Why are more and more alliances refusing to announce new treaties (or changes to existing treaties) on the Big Boards?
[/quote]
They want you to announce it for them, obviously.

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318011045' post='2819888']
Rather than bore you all with a longwinded OP I'd like to pose this simple question.

Why are more and more alliances refusing to announce new treaties (or changes to existing treaties) on the Big Boards?
[/quote]

[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]P[/font]ersonally, I believe that this is [font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]u[/font]nsustainable. The [font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]s[/font]ituation cause[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]s[/font] a lot of [font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]s[/font]addness [font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]i[/font]n people that vi[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]e[/font]w the OWF as e[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]s[/font]sential to this game.

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1318013796' post='2819934']
Have you read the OWF lately?[/quote]
Yes

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1318013796' post='2819934']
Can you really blame them?[/quote]
Yes

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1318013796' post='2819934']
edit: also haters so need the emotional reinforcement of poo throwing that if they don't announce it, people create a thread to throw poo anyways.[/quote]
So if it's not announced on the OWF, it isn't allowed to be discussed on the OWF? Where is that rule stated? In theory OWF abstainers do so because "the OWF is not essential to finding out this information, we use our wiki." That would mean that they are operating under the assumption that everyone [i]does[/i] know, and that they are okay with people knowing and/or discussing it.

Except that they aren't, clearly.

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1318014491' post='2819947']
I'll have to disagree with you and say that the OWF has become a far more terrible place in the last two or three years, and I'd imagine that the alliances that choose not to post (not refuse to post, there's no obligation) their information here do so mainly because they don't want to lower themselves to partaking in circus full of $%&@wits and !@#$heads.
[/quote]

The OWF is as terrible as it has always been for the people that it was always terrible for:
[list=1]
[*]The Extremely Powerful
[*]The Very Retarded
[*]Alliances with Problems
[*]The New Pacific Order[sup]1[/sup]
[/list]
[sup]1[/sup][size="1"]which at various times has fallen into the previous three categories, but which really deserves it's own. Franco lives![/size]

The only difference is that the people that now find themselves in category #1 can't handle what they've dished out for the last six years to others that have sat in the same place. Now they want to make new rules like, "If we don't announce it, you're allowed to know it, but you're not allowed to talk about it!"

Good luck with that.

[jerdge]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1318061434' post='2820657']We still hold a treaty with MHA and didn't see any point announcing the downgrade, had we cancelled the treaty outright it would've been announced but it wasn't so we didn't. It's just the way we do things.[/quote]
As you repeated this a few times I'll ask you a question.
If I am not mistaken the treaty was a MDP (maybe MDoAP) that got downgraded to an ODP. That changes both your FAs from a position in which you'd have to "obligatory" defend each other to a position in which you have ground to do so, but you don't "have" to. (And maybe you also lost the oA part, which is less relevant but not completely irrelevant either.)
I think that it's a very significant change, why do you insist that it would have been pointless to announce it?

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1318093788' post='2820902']
As you repeated this a few times I'll ask you a question.
If I am not mistaken the treaty was a MDP (maybe MDoAP) that got downgraded to an ODP. That changes both your FAs from a position in which you'd have to "obligatory" defend each other to a position in which you have ground to do so, but you don't "have" to. (And maybe you also lost the oA part, which is less relevant but not completely irrelevant either.)
I think that it's a very significant change, why do you insist that it would have been pointless to announce it?
[/quote]

We don't post these types of things, period. We have never (in the three years of our existence) posted these types of things, period. It is not a new change, it isn't simply because we consider it pointless, it isn't because it isn't a big change (though, I do feel "significant" might be hyperbole since I don't believe this downgrade would actually change our course of actions in the foreseeable future). We have our reasons and if you talk to any member or gov member of the alliance, they'll give you their own justification. This is how we do things, and we (probably) won't be changing it anytime soon.

Edited October 8, 2011 by mrcalkin

[janax]

I've spammed up the Alliance ANnouncements for you Feanor.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1318030927' post='2820242']
Happy now? We didn't announce it because we didn't feel like announcing it, it wasn't something we took great pleasure in doing as it is, that and this kind of stuff gets around [b]via word of mouth anyway(See: that other forum)[/b] so it's not like we were keeping people in the dark about it. [/quote]

Really? That's how you're supporting this? The expectation that people make an account on a CN gossip forum to keep up on the haps' and who's-who in CN? That's just an absolutely preposterous assumption or requirement to make of everyone. I !@#$@#$ hate the CNTel community and the fact that our alliances support it so heavily.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Leet Guy

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1318095021' post='2820917']
We don't post these types of things, period. We have never (in the three years of our existence) posted these types of things, period.
[/quote]

I can sort of back that up. I mean, I cant say for sure Umbrella never announced this stuff, ever, once. Could have slipped by me. But I remember pre-karma that was the policy.

[Beauty]

Mainly because they will get criticized on who they ally, Everyone has enemies these days.

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1318095021' post='2820917']
We don't post these types of things, period. We have never (in the three years of our existence) posted these types of things, period. It is not a new change, it isn't simply because we [b]consider it pointless[/b], it isn't because it isn't a big change ([b]though, I do feel "significant" might be hyperbole since I don't believe this downgrade would actually change our course of actions in the foreseeable future[/b]). We have our reasons and if you talk to any member or gov member of the alliance, they'll give you their own justification. This is how we do things, and we (probably) won't be changing it anytime soon.
[/quote]

First, there was a [b]point[/b] to the downgrade, or else it wouldn't have happened. Unless you periodically have a lottery to randomly downgrade allies as a joke between you and your treaty partners, then there had to have been a [b]point[/b].

Second, if the downgrade wasn't [b]significant[/b] it wouldn't have happened. If this is not going to change your course of actions for the foreseeable future, then why the downgrade? Again, there had to be a point.

If I downgraded my marriage to "just dating" it would immediately change the nature of my relationship with my (former) wife, and would concomitantly change the way that I interacted with people that were not my (former) wife.

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1318101745' post='2821004']
Mainly because they will get criticized on who they ally, Everyone has enemies these days.
[/quote]

Having a secret ally is like having a secret romantic relationship. If it can't stand the light of day, it will never survive. Hiding your actions because you're afraid of what other people will think is either hypocrisy or cowardice and probably both.

I don't think that was Umbrella's motivation (since they are neither cowards nor hypocrites), but I know that it was certainly NpO's, and it has been in many other cases as well.

Edited October 8, 2011 by WalkerNinja

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1318100898' post='2820988']
Really? That's how you're supporting this? The expectation that people make an account on a CN gossip forum to keep up on the haps' and who's-who in CN? That's just an absolutely preposterous assumption or requirement to make of everyone. I !@#$@#$ hate the CNTel community and the fact that our alliances support it so heavily.
[/quote]

No that was just an example of how word spreads. I mean we told you and all of our allies that it happened, why is it such a big deal to you that we both decided not to announce it?

We also didn't announce that we hit an AA last war who we weren't officially at war with and yet you had no issue with that. I'm just confused why you are making such a big deal about this. Like I said, we told you it happened, we didn't keep you in the dark about it.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1318096090' post='2820936']
I've spammed up the Alliance ANnouncements for you Feanor.
[/quote]
If everyone does their part, we can make this a happy place once more even if Umbrella won't announce their stuff for us.

Although maybe we should have a designated person to announce things for Umbrella since they don't do it themselves, such as myself.

[EViL0nE]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1318030927' post='2820242']
after all people sure do love to play telephone.
[/quote]

So I just heard that Umbrella merged into MHA and are declaring war on CSN and GOONS. What's that all about?

//I think the guy next to me in the telephone line was on LSD.

[GeoLauzier]

I miss the time where you could just post something and ask the mods to lock the topic asap.

[LJ Scott]

Subscribe to the official Umbrella Fanboy twitter feed to gain exclusive access to our breaking news first.

[JoshuaR]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1318106397' post='2821063']
First, there was a [b]point[/b] to the downgrade, or else it wouldn't have happened. Unless you periodically have a lottery to randomly downgrade allies as a joke between you and your treaty partners, then there had to have been a [b]point[/b].

Second, if the downgrade wasn't [b]significant[/b] it wouldn't have happened. If this is not going to change your course of actions for the foreseeable future, then why the downgrade? Again, there had to be a point.

If I downgraded my marriage to "just dating" it would immediately change the nature of my relationship with my (former) wife, and would concomitantly change the way that I interacted with people that were not my (former) wife.



Having a secret ally is like having a secret romantic relationship. If it can't stand the light of day, it will never survive. Hiding your actions because you're afraid of what other people will think is either hypocrisy or cowardice and probably both.

I don't think that was Umbrella's motivation (since they are neither cowards nor hypocrites), but I know that it was certainly NpO's, and it has been in many other cases as well.
[/quote]
Well, the real [b]point[/b] is something that will not be posted publicly anyway, so an AA post would have added nothing. It would be the generic, "Our treaty has been downgraded. Reasons have been provided in private. We still view each other as allies and wish to grow our relationship form this point forward."

In all actuality, there was no Point to the downgrade politically or militarily. We have the exact same treaty, if you will, with Sparta, and that treaty is still a MDoAP. There is no advantage to us in altering our MHA treaty. The entire alteration in the treaty was based solely on the two involved alliances, MHA and Umbrella, and because the alteration has no effect on the world at large, there isn't a [b]point[/b] in announcing it to the world. It will change no one else's plans or thoughts or ideas of who our allies are or what our future plans are regarding any possible coming wars or engagements.

Edited October 8, 2011 by JoshuaR

[IYIyTh]

On one hand these things do get around fairly quickly.
On the other, I can see where the angst at being deprived of an opportunity to piss on someone and tell them it's raining would come from.
Each alliance will do what it wants, and it's not as if this is some huge secret of some sort.
Like Johnny said, we do what we want. :dealwithit:

As a consolation, you can all forward your kind words you would have had to say about "Great move Umbrella," "MHA is a terrible alliance," "Should have been sooner," "Lines being erased," "This is a shame," "I'm disappointed in such and so forth," "Wow the audacity Umbrella," in a conversation that includes Johnny and I that we will disperse to our membership at our leisure.

These will need to be signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1318049757' post='2820513']
speaking of morons and poo flingers.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I am sure you are patting yourself on the back for this, impressed with your "zinger," however I am afraid you are no position to talk down to me. I am a universally admired figure. Well respected I am, and loved by all. There is not a single person who can honestly doubt my many accomplishments. I am the very definition of competence.

You on the other hand are the clown king of a clown alliance. You confused mediocrity with greatness, for which I can hardly blame you, considering that you have never known the latter. Despite this you continue to tout yourself as an intellectual and a leader, and all the time oblivious to the fact that how you percieve yourself if hardly how the world sees you to be.

You are no Rebel Virginia.[/color]

[Believland]

[quote name='LJ Scott' timestamp='1318114516' post='2821128']
Subscribe to the official Umbrella Fanboy twitter feed to gain exclusive access to our breaking news first.
[/quote]

I did not see a twitter...

[Fallen Fool]

People avoided honest discussion under the NPO-dominated Hegemony because if they deviated from a rigid set of talking points their alliance likely would have suffered political consequences. People avoid honest discussion now because if they deviate from a rigid set of talking points they'll get drowned in the river of !@#$ spewed forth by the unwashed mass of !@#$posters. Apparently freedom from intellectual tyranny doesn't bring about an intellectual renaissance, it merely dilutes intellect to the point of irrelevancy. Which translates into a boring ass OWF no one wants to spend time on.

To preempt the whole "the OWF has always been !@#$!!" argument, I'll acknowledge the OWF has always been largely composed of !@#$posters. I would argue though that at the best of times that majority was split into rival camps and that such splits kept things interesting. The current political situation, however, has corralled a vast majority of the !@#$posters into a single camp and as a result we have the aforementioned river of !@#$.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1318118101' post='2821151']
People avoided honest discussion under the NPO-dominated Hegemony because if they deviated from a rigid set of talking points their alliance likely would have suffered political consequences. People avoid honest discussion now because if they deviate from a rigid set of talking points they'll get drowned in the river of !@#$ spewed forth by the unwashed mass of !@#$posters. Apparently freedom from intellectual tyranny doesn't bring about an intellectual renaissance, it merely dilutes intellect to the point of irrelevancy. Which translates into a boring ass OWF no one wants to spend time on.

To preempt the whole "the OWF has always been !@#$!!" argument, I'll acknowledge the OWF has always been largely composed of !@#$posters. I would argue though that at the best of times that majority was split into rival camps and that such splits kept things interesting. The current political situation, however, has corralled a vast majority of the !@#$posters into a single camp and as a result we have the aforementioned river of !@#$.
[/quote]

Bring back the North and South Web!

[Heft]

There isn't really a single camp, though.