A Statement from Doomhouse

[Monster]

For me, the objection was moreso that we went in knowing that we'd get no help from TOP because our treaty partners needed the help and then several untreatied alliances attacked our MDoAP partner directly along with them while we were in nuclear anarchy, which was a violation of the TOP MDoAP. Preemptive strikes are something you usually want to avoid, but they're effective if the situation calls for it. I wasn't particularly trigger happy about it.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[mrwuss]

Ok so we are a go on the list of lies that came through our teeth?

Good, good glad that is over.


Today I like apples, next week I might hate them. Does that mean I lied when I said I liked them?

Sure preemptive attacks may not be the best course to take, but just because you dislike something doesn't mean its off the table. Allowing NPO to get off an alpha strike would have put VE et al at a very awful disadvantage. So, no, I personally can not say the whole preemptive strike like/dislike was a [b]lie[/b].

[Monster]

To be fair, a lot of it was played up since MK was going in and I doubt MK would deny it, but that's the kind of thing that happens during a war.

[Earogema]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1301992634' post='2684560']
Ok so we are a go on the list of lies that came through our teeth?

Good, good glad that is over.


Today I like apples, next week I might hate them. Does that mean I lied when I said I liked them?

Sure preemptive attacks may not be the best course to take, but just because you dislike something doesn't mean its off the table. Allowing NPO to get off an alpha strike would have put VE et al at a very awful disadvantage. So, no, I personally can not say the whole preemptive strike like/dislike was a [b]lie[/b].
[/quote]
A political stance is quite different from fruit. Changing your stance on a war tactic obviously is going to seem hypocritical. Not necessarily a lie, after all, you may have disliked them then since they were used against your side and now you like them since your side is using them, but it is hypocritical.

Also NPO's "alpha strike" was obviously understood to be a factor, so you were obviously ready for it. If that's the case you can't really call it an "alpha strike" or claim it would have done significant damage, especially since Doomhouse would have still been in the wing to counter. I believe C&G would have also been ready at the time to engage against NPO should that need arise. Granted, VE and allies might have taken more damage, but NPO attacking wouldn't have made a major impact unless they were doing it with a coalition force. Even then, I highly doubt the damage could have influenced anything.

[Vol Navy]

I would say it's more blatant hypocrisy than outright lying.

PM for FAN....Great tactic! We love FAN!

PM for NPO....You alliance must be destroyed even though you've lost over 60% of your pre-war NS. It's just so we can stop this from ever happening again....errmm for the good of Bob!! Yeah..that's it.

Pre-Emptive Strike on CnG....You cowards are terrible and must pay massively for this unprovoked attack!!!

Pre-Emptive Strike on NPO....Great military planning. No one should be upset with this at all!

MK provkes, makes fun of, prods, treats NPO like crap.....Goody! It's the DH lifestyle!

NPO returns a fraction of the same MK's way....NPO is a big meanie and needs to change their attitude!!!!

GOONS is different than old GOONS. We just get the members from the same place and have several of the same gov members!

NPO is the same as old NPO. They just have a bunch of new post Karma members and several of the same gov!

NPO is evil! They rolled GPA! They were big baddies years and years ago. They rolled alliances for terrible reasons!!! Sure they paid more massively than any alliance ever for that and changed leadership twice and have tons of post-Karma new members. Doesn't matter!

Umb helped NPO roll GPA. TOP and VE supported them via MDoAP for a long time too. But they've changed a ton. They'd never just roll an alliance out of the blue on sketchy charges!

These are just some of the basics from this thread where the stance from DH is exceptionally hypocritical.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1301994042' post='2684562']
A political stance is quite different from fruit. Changing your stance on a war tactic obviously is going to seem hypocritical. Not necessarily a lie, after all, you may have disliked them then since they were used against your side and now you like them since your side is using them, but it is hypocritical.

Also NPO's "alpha strike" was obviously understood to be a factor, so you were obviously ready for it. If that's the case you can't really call it an "alpha strike" or claim it would have done significant damage, especially since Doomhouse would have still been in the wing to counter. I believe C&G would have also been ready at the time to engage against NPO should that need arise. Granted, VE and allies might have taken more damage, but NPO attacking wouldn't have made a major impact unless they were doing it with a coalition force. Even then, I highly doubt the damage could have influenced anything.
[/quote]


That is all well and good but it's a counter to a point not being made. I read we lied through our teeth, I'm waiting to see how.

Double standards are an entire different can of worms that I am not fishing with right now. Once the lying part is put to rest something else can be addressed.

[Borsche]

[quote name='JustIncredible' timestamp='1301974325' post='2684449']
Because I don't support your actions of trying to be "superman" and "save" us, doesn't mean I agree with their strategies, BUT it damn sure doesn't give you any !@#$@#$ right to try and tell people how to run their alliance, fight their wars or speak for all of Planet Bob. Don't come in trying to act like some knight in shining armor, we don't want your help.[/quote]

You tell us not to speak for the cyberverse, but then by saying 'we don't want your help' you arrogantly assume that you are the platform for this planet's opinion. Please refrain from speaking if you continue to be as arrogant and hypocritical as you are now.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1301970453' post='2684407']
will you guys make up your minds alrdy? half of DH gov say the two wars ARE connected while the other half say they ARE NOT connected....wtf is going on through back doors?

...btw i'm STILL trying to figure out how the hell FAN got involved in this war, either DH contacted them or FAN contacted DH
[/quote]

Not exactly sure what neutrality has to do with anything. NPO could have just said they wouldn't enact the chain of any of their treaties. Of course it could be stupid to do so - along the lines of keeping dedicated banks even - and DoomHouse acting couldn't be based on assuming NPO would do the stupidest thing, because that's dumb.

That said, wars are connected, I am just not exactly sure what them declaring neutrality or not has to do with it.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1301990679' post='2684551']
For me, the objection was moreso that we went in knowing that we'd get no help from TOP because our treaty partners needed the help and then several untreatied alliances attacked our MDoAP partner directly along with them while we were in nuclear anarchy, which was a violation of the TOP MDoAP. Preemptive strikes are something you usually want to avoid, but they're effective if the situation calls for it. I wasn't particularly trigger happy about it.
[/quote]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1301993269' post='2684561']
To be fair, a lot of it was played up since MK was going in and I doubt MK would deny it, but that's the kind of thing that happens during a war.
[/quote]

No, understood, which is why I specifically pulled you out as an excellent example of candor. I recall being in a similar argumentative position last year, which is only compounded by unclear DoWs, ect. I don't necessarily agree with your reasoning, but I have very much appreciated the effort you have put into explaining your thinking. I do still think it is hypocritical, but as you say, such is war.

However those two previous posts are why you're effective at conveying your message Roq,

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1301992634' post='2684560']
Ok so we are a go on the list of lies that came through our teeth?

Good, good glad that is over.


Today I like apples, next week I might hate them. Does that mean I lied when I said I liked them?

Sure preemptive attacks may not be the best course to take, but just because you dislike something doesn't mean its off the table. Allowing NPO to get off an alpha strike would have put VE et al at a very awful disadvantage. So, no, I personally can not say the whole preemptive strike like/dislike was a [b]lie[/b].
[/quote]

and you're seen as a disingenuous hack.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Lord Curzon

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1301985013' post='2684528']
What was lied about, drop a list.

Or drop that viewpoint.

Assumptions != lies; FYI.
[/quote]

There is basically the entire OP in this thread.

"4. Never before has Peace Mode been utilized in so sweeping a manner in global warfare, the forces of the Hopeless Coalition dividing their troops into upper and lower, securing their strength while swarming with the weak." Lie #1. FAN utilized Peace mode in a much more sweeping fashion since their entire alliance hid in peace mode.

then there is this:

"At long last the dream of the Kingdom and Doomhouse grows manifest--that we may have a world free of the cruel emotion and crippling condemnation that so dominates our past." Lie #2. It is obvious that DH is feeling quite the cruel emotion towards NPO/allies. Not only that but we have witnessed in this very thread the crippling condemnation from DH towards NPO/allies.

then this:

"That we may fight with one another in the pursuance of strategic goals without everlasting annihilation." Lie #3. This is due to the fact that there was never anything remotely close to everlasting annihilation conducted in the past. Even if you believe that disbandments could be forced, then that is not everlasting annihilation (look at Umbrella or MK or GR for proof of that). FAN was long but nothing close to everlasting either.

then:

"That we may live without those who set the standards of misery and fear that so long ruled us, that so long required retribution." Lie #4. Yeah live without fear unless you are NPO/allies and even possibly Polaris/allies since the war there was basically a massive set up operation.

then:

"The enemy still resists, however. Even now scattered forces in the Hopeless Coalition refuse the generous peace initiatives of our governments or work to convince their allies to do the same." Lie #5. Depending on how you meant "resists", I doubt NPO/allies are resisting any kind of just and kind terms. Instead they are resisting unjust and tyrannical terms. Not only that, but if NPO was working to convince their allies to not take terms, then why have any alliances from NPO's side taken terms already? Also, seriously, you put in the word generous... yeah that has been proven wrong many, many, many, many times in this thread.

then:

"Those who avoid war out of cowardice and those who seek to prolong the suffering of their people through continued conflict will find punitives piling against them." Lie #6. You brought the war on NPO/allies. You brought the suffering onto their people. You continue the conflict long past the time it should have ended given the reasons in your DoW.

then:

"So too will the cowardly strategy against GOONS be met with punishment, though modest." Lie #7. Any reparations are beyond modest. GOONS hit NPO first and for no reason. Demanding reparations because NPO's allies defend them is already ensuring it is not a modest amount, nor does there need to be punishment period.

then:

"But in time, all will see the light that is our message, shining from the depths of the Box." Lie #8. I, and most likely many others, refuse to see the so called message as anything other than a new era of hegemonic tyranny. Had DH proven themselves to actually be above the past with this war, it may have been different. Instead, DH has only proven that the past apparently works for them and thus, we can only expect more of the same.

then:

"The end of terms that cripple alliances forever." Lie #9. If NPO crippled alliances forever, then how come Karma happened? How come FAN is hitting NPO now? How come DH is hitting NPO now? They would be unable too if this were truth. Not to mention, the largest reps in history were thrust on NPO. Then there is this 1 month of war that would basically neuter NPO/allies for a long ass time by widening the gap between NPO/allies upper tier and DH's upper tier.

then:

"The end of silence for fear of persecution." Lie #10. We have watched as Sir Paul's tabloid was used as one of the reason's to hit NPO. We have watched as Schatt's posts on the forums were used as a reason for CoJ to have to pay such outlandish reps. So why should anyone believe that DH would not do the same later on? Ya'll have already set the precedent that DH is willing to go to war or to demand reparations against those who dare speak out against DH.

then:

"The end of the influence of those who would overthrow these goals in favor of their own return to power." Lie #11. I am assuming this means NPO/allies and if so, then NPO/allies from what I could see, have not even attempted to regain any amount of power they once had. Hell for that matter, since Karma, they have consistently lost power as alliances shifted away from them. Only a tiny handful (TIO and CoJ to my knowledge, though I could be wrong) have actually allied with NPO that were outside of the Remnants.

then:

"The end of cowardice." Lie #12. One could easily say that DH are cowards for hitting NPO whilst whilst the Polar-VE war was going on, instead of waiting to hit them when it was done. One could say that by allowing FOK/VE to come in when DH/other allies/FAN/NoR already hold an overwhelming edge is also cowardly. One could also say that by attempting to crush NPO/allies now; they are attempting to avoid a future war at all costs which according to DH, attempting to avoid a war is cowardly.

then:

"The end of myth and fear." Lie #13. Wrong. Now the fear is of DH. Call it paranoid all you want. DH acted on paranoia once, whose to say they won't again. DH has set their own precedents with this war, which means these are what we have to look upon when we wonder what DH would do. Your pretty propaganda piece has been shown now to be riddled with lies (I could have also gone into the wonderful propaganda bits in it as well but since I was asked to show the lies of DH, I only did that.)

Now from this thread I will pull a few out:

"NPO gov is the same." Lie #14. NPO's gov has greatly changed since Karma. In fact, several of their former gov members have left the alliance altogether such as Dilber and Ivan. Moo is no longer Emperor nor even gov.

"NPO is the same alliance but GOONS is different because we have different members." Lie #15. NPO has almost an entirely new member base that has come from Post-Karma era. So if GOONS 2.0 is different from GOONS 1.0 due to different members, then the same applies to NPO.

"NPO has not changed their attitude, therefore they are the same." Lie #16. NPO has done nothing since Karma. Yes, they are still mouthy.... so what? Their attitude was never just about being arrogant or mouthy, it was about rolling and crushing all opposition. I have not seen NPO or their allies start a single war since Karma. That is a huge difference in attitude.


Frankly to me, the whole preemptive strike thing is made a lie due solely to the reps that were forced to be paid solely because TOP/co preemptively struck. If MK truly was just using propaganda, then there would have been absolutely no need for the amount of reps that had to be paid out by TOP/co. I could see some, but not remotely close to what was actually demanded and paid. So to me, yes the whole Preemptive Strike bit is just another Lie though this one is pretty much only MK instead of all of DH.

Well hope that satisfies. I refuse to go through 180 pages to find more lies or waste my time to find other lies in other threads. I do believe showing 16 lies just from the OP and this thread is good enough (17 if you are MK).



edit: Oh and thanks mrwuss, I did not think I would be so sorely missed that when I went to bed, you would attempt to call me out no less than 4 times in 3.25 hours. Next time, you should be patient and realize that others may be in a different timezone than you and thus won't answer right away.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Dochartaigh

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1302000523' post='2684583']
Not exactly sure what neutrality has to do with anything. NPO could have just said they wouldn't enact the chain of any of their treaties. Of course it could be stupid to do so - along the lines of keeping dedicated banks even - and DoomHouse acting couldn't be based on assuming NPO would do the stupidest thing, because that's dumb.

That said, wars are connected, I am just not exactly sure what them declaring neutrality or not has to do with it.
[/quote]

sorry not quite sure if you meant to quote another post or not?

if you're referring to the argument being made that "the two wars are connected and NPO could have gotten out of this by posting a DoN" then i'm still as confused as before with DH govt members flip flopping on how this war was started (same/separate conflicts). also the whole point of many DH stating that NPO should have declared themselves neutral in the conflict was to try and add legitimacy to the pre-emptive strike by stating the two wars were directly connected and that the NPO did not have to face war at all if they simply posted onee (which, honestly doesnt make much sense imo because many alliances that could have been dragged in, like Europa and IRON, could have posted a DoN but never did and weren't attacked either.)






and what's so bad with having bank nations? many alliances still have them ....especially smaller alliances (we do still exist on Planet Bob....for now )





edit: also anyone else surprised how MK members have basically avoided this topic now? usually they love a good troll? especially with people like Doch who get so angry over any lil post lol

Edited April 5, 2011 by Lurunin

[potato]

We're mostly fed up of arguing with morons.

[Borsche]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1302006138' post='2684603']
"NPO has not changed their attitude, therefore they are the same." Lie #16. NPO has done nothing since Karma. Yes, they are still mouthy.... so what? Their attitude was never just about being arrogant or mouthy, it was about rolling and crushing all opposition. I have not seen NPO or their allies start a single war since Karma. That is a huge difference in attitude.
[/quote]

See, this doesn't make any sense. NPO is about rolling and crushing all opposition. And this is supposed to be a good thing? It's more proof that they are the same atrocious alliance that they always were.

[D34th]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1302009687' post='2684616']
We're mostly fed up of arguing with morons.
[/quote]

Stop whining :v:

[Letum]

[quote name='Borsche' timestamp='1302010019' post='2684619']
It's more proof that they are the same atrocious alliance that they always were.
[/quote]

...

You know, I might just want to follow potato's example here, for once.

[Borsche]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302010209' post='2684623']
...

You know, I might just want to follow potato's example here, for once.
[/quote]

Your rudeness and inability to comprehend logic is exactly why you are getting rolled.

[Letum]

[quote name='Borsche' timestamp='1302012162' post='2684636']
Your rudeness and inability to comprehend logic is exactly why you are getting rolled.
[/quote]

You realize that the example I'm referring to was given by your ally, right?

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Borsche' timestamp='1302010019' post='2684619']
See, this doesn't make any sense. NPO is about rolling and crushing all opposition. And this is supposed to be a good thing? It's more proof that they are the same atrocious alliance that they always were.
[/quote]


[quote name='Borsche' timestamp='1302012162' post='2684636']
Your rudeness and inability to comprehend logic is exactly why you are getting rolled.
[/quote]

NPO's military involvement in any conflict since the Karma War has been non-existent. Which conflict, since the Karma War, has NPO rolled and crushed all opposition? I do not want the same "might, could, would" said before, I want to see where they participated in a conflict since the Karma War in which they sought to roll and crush all opposition. As of now, those who have been capable of doing so, have done so in recent conflicts.

Rudeness and Inability to comprehend logic has nothing to do with their "getting rolled". Even with the superficial reasons outlined in the OP, it is war for the sake of war. It is war because Doomhouse feels Pacifica should have been involved in defending their allies, among other reasons, so you brought the war to them in hopes of crushing/rolling them once more. Attempting to justify it any other way, especially with the recent topic regarding their top tier being unable to be hit, is going to be called out on.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Voodoo Nova

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1301986788' post='2684540']
can we PLEASE start with how this war was !@#$@#$ started? PLEASE?! again, half of DH govt say that the DH-NPO war was an extension of the PB-NpO conflict while the other half state that they are completely opposite.[/quote]
This is neither a lie nor a contradiction. If you didn't notice, five alliances attacked NPO. To say they all had exactly one reason (the same reason) is ludicrous. Yes, a major reason DH moved was because of PB-NpO. That doesn't mean it's the [i][b]only[/b][/i] reason we're allowed to use. FAN obviously has their reasons, and NoR has treaties. I can't speak for everyone, but GOONs has had lots of problems dealing with NPO as of late and I've wanted to hit them for quite some time.
[right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisR5.jpg[/img][/right]

The main problem is NPO's side believes that either having more than one reason means we're just making everything up as we go, or means we had no CB at all. Both claims are completely ridiculous.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L9.jpg[/img]

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1302006138' post='2684603']
There is basically the entire OP in this thread.

"4. Never before has Peace Mode been utilized in so sweeping a manner in global warfare, the forces of the Hopeless Coalition dividing their troops into upper and lower, securing their strength while swarming with the weak." Lie #1. FAN utilized Peace mode in a much more sweeping fashion since their entire alliance hid in peace mode.

then there is this:

"At long last the dream of the Kingdom and Doomhouse grows manifest--that we may have a world free of the cruel emotion and crippling condemnation that so dominates our past." Lie #2. It is obvious that DH is feeling quite the cruel emotion towards NPO/allies. Not only that but we have witnessed in this very thread the crippling condemnation from DH towards NPO/allies.

then this:

"That we may fight with one another in the pursuance of strategic goals without everlasting annihilation." Lie #3. This is due to the fact that there was never anything remotely close to everlasting annihilation conducted in the past. Even if you believe that disbandments could be forced, then that is not everlasting annihilation (look at Umbrella or MK or GR for proof of that). FAN was long but nothing close to everlasting either.

then:

"That we may live without those who set the standards of misery and fear that so long ruled us, that so long required retribution." Lie #4. Yeah live without fear unless you are NPO/allies and even possibly Polaris/allies since the war there was basically a massive set up operation.

then:

"The enemy still resists, however. Even now scattered forces in the Hopeless Coalition refuse the generous peace initiatives of our governments or work to convince their allies to do the same." Lie #5. Depending on how you meant "resists", I doubt NPO/allies are resisting any kind of just and kind terms. Instead they are resisting unjust and tyrannical terms. Not only that, but if NPO was working to convince their allies to not take terms, then why have any alliances from NPO's side taken terms already? Also, seriously, you put in the word generous... yeah that has been proven wrong many, many, many, many times in this thread.

then:

"Those who avoid war out of cowardice and those who seek to prolong the suffering of their people through continued conflict will find punitives piling against them." Lie #6. You brought the war on NPO/allies. You brought the suffering onto their people. You continue the conflict long past the time it should have ended given the reasons in your DoW.

then:

"So too will the cowardly strategy against GOONS be met with punishment, though modest." Lie #7. Any reparations are beyond modest. GOONS hit NPO first and for no reason. Demanding reparations because NPO's allies defend them is already ensuring it is not a modest amount, nor does there need to be punishment period.

then:

"But in time, all will see the light that is our message, shining from the depths of the Box." Lie #8. I, and most likely many others, refuse to see the so called message as anything other than a new era of hegemonic tyranny. Had DH proven themselves to actually be above the past with this war, it may have been different. Instead, DH has only proven that the past apparently works for them and thus, we can only expect more of the same.

then:

"The end of terms that cripple alliances forever." Lie #9. If NPO crippled alliances forever, then how come Karma happened? How come FAN is hitting NPO now? How come DH is hitting NPO now? They would be unable too if this were truth. Not to mention, the largest reps in history were thrust on NPO. Then there is this 1 month of war that would basically neuter NPO/allies for a long ass time by widening the gap between NPO/allies upper tier and DH's upper tier.

then:

"The end of silence for fear of persecution." Lie #10. We have watched as Sir Paul's tabloid was used as one of the reason's to hit NPO. We have watched as Schatt's posts on the forums were used as a reason for CoJ to have to pay such outlandish reps. So why should anyone believe that DH would not do the same later on? Ya'll have already set the precedent that DH is willing to go to war or to demand reparations against those who dare speak out against DH.

then:

"The end of the influence of those who would overthrow these goals in favor of their own return to power." Lie #11. I am assuming this means NPO/allies and if so, then NPO/allies from what I could see, have not even attempted to regain any amount of power they once had. Hell for that matter, since Karma, they have consistently lost power as alliances shifted away from them. Only a tiny handful (TIO and CoJ to my knowledge, though I could be wrong) have actually allied with NPO that were outside of the Remnants.

then:

"The end of cowardice." Lie #12. One could easily say that DH are cowards for hitting NPO whilst whilst the Polar-VE war was going on, instead of waiting to hit them when it was done. One could say that by allowing FOK/VE to come in when DH/other allies/FAN/NoR already hold an overwhelming edge is also cowardly. One could also say that by attempting to crush NPO/allies now; they are attempting to avoid a future war at all costs which according to DH, attempting to avoid a war is cowardly.

then:

"The end of myth and fear." Lie #13. Wrong. Now the fear is of DH. Call it paranoid all you want. DH acted on paranoia once, whose to say they won't again. DH has set their own precedents with this war, which means these are what we have to look upon when we wonder what DH would do. Your pretty propaganda piece has been shown now to be riddled with lies (I could have also gone into the wonderful propaganda bits in it as well but since I was asked to show the lies of DH, I only did that.)

Now from this thread I will pull a few out:

"NPO gov is the same." Lie #14. NPO's gov has greatly changed since Karma. In fact, several of their former gov members have left the alliance altogether such as Dilber and Ivan. Moo is no longer Emperor nor even gov.

"NPO is the same alliance but GOONS is different because we have different members." Lie #15. NPO has almost an entirely new member base that has come from Post-Karma era. So if GOONS 2.0 is different from GOONS 1.0 due to different members, then the same applies to NPO.

"NPO has not changed their attitude, therefore they are the same." Lie #16. NPO has done nothing since Karma. Yes, they are still mouthy.... so what? Their attitude was never just about being arrogant or mouthy, it was about rolling and crushing all opposition. I have not seen NPO or their allies start a single war since Karma. That is a huge difference in attitude.


Frankly to me, the whole preemptive strike thing is made a lie due solely to the reps that were forced to be paid solely because TOP/co preemptively struck. If MK truly was just using propaganda, then there would have been absolutely no need for the amount of reps that had to be paid out by TOP/co. I could see some, but not remotely close to what was actually demanded and paid. So to me, yes the whole Preemptive Strike bit is just another Lie though this one is pretty much only MK instead of all of DH.

Well hope that satisfies. I refuse to go through 180 pages to find more lies or waste my time to find other lies in other threads. I do believe showing 16 lies just from the OP and this thread is good enough (17 if you are MK).



edit: Oh and thanks mrwuss, I did not think I would be so sorely missed that when I went to bed, you would attempt to call me out no less than 4 times in 3.25 hours. Next time, you should be patient and realize that others may be in a different timezone than you and thus won't answer right away.
[/quote]

I am simply amazed at your ability to stretch that far for a straw. Your 'lies' are nothing more than opinion being spoken as facts, what you think isn't always what is there chum. I do salute your attempt and think NPO is better off with you on thier side, you have to be the best politician around.

Sadly your work here was wasted, long winded and not very well backed with facts.

Also, I called you out once the remainder of the posts were of a more dismissive tone. Sorry to break your fast beating heart.

Edited April 5, 2011 by mrwuss

[Achilles]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1302014102' post='2684653']
This is neither a lie nor a contradiction. If you didn't notice, five alliances attacked NPO. To say they all had exactly one reason (the same reason) is ludicrous. Yes, a major reason DH moved was because of PB-NpO. That doesn't mean it's the [i][b]only[/b][/i] reason we're allowed to use. FAN obviously has their reasons, and NoR has treaties. I can't speak for everyone, but GOONs has had lots of problems dealing with NPO as of late and I've wanted to hit them for quite some time.
[right][img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisR5.jpg[/img][/right]

The main problem is NPO's side believes that either having more than one reason means we're just making everything up as we go, or means we had no CB at all. Both claims are completely ridiculous.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L9.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I had assumed that the FAN issues and the MK issues were resolved after the KARMA war. What are the issues with GOONS as of late.... before this war? I'm just trying to understand. FAN got what they wanted out of the KARMA war and MK, well, MK got revenge for past aggressions. GOONS is back in CN, which should be enough for them. How many more wars will Pacifica have to go through over things that were supposed to be handled before? I believe we paid our debts didn't we?

[uaciaut]

I'm laughing pretty hard at people who keep using FAN as a retort for PM. FAN almost dismantled NPO by throwing every military capability it had at them. Why do you think pacifica kept asking it's allies to keep every low FAN nation with nukes staggered?

Sorry, FAN actually fought it's war till the !@#$@#$ end and only when they were too small to carry any more significant value did they try to bring the war on another level that they could still approach. NPO as per usual are looking for the easy way out. Good luck with that.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Achilles' timestamp='1302014963' post='2684659']
I'm sorry, I had assumed that the FAN issues and the MK issues were resolved after the KARMA war.
[/quote]
You assumed wrong. Dead wrong.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Achilles' timestamp='1302014963' post='2684659']
I'm sorry, I had assumed that the FAN issues and the MK issues were resolved after the KARMA war. What are the issues with GOONS as of late.... before this war? I'm just trying to understand. FAN got what they wanted out of the KARMA war and MK, well, MK got revenge for past aggressions. GOONS is back in CN, which should be enough for them. How many more wars will Pacifica have to go through over things that were supposed to be handled before? I believe we paid our debts didn't we?
[/quote]
Wow, I guess we should've consulted you before moving. It seems you're the expert on just how much justice was received by each alliance and how much is enough for each party. I'd answer your question but I don't have the same insight into NPO's inner workings and politics as you do to FAN, MK, and GOONs.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriso_oL2.jpg[/img]

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1302016193' post='2684666']
I'm laughing pretty hard at people who keep using FAN as a retort for PM. FAN almost dismantled NPO by throwing every military capability it had at them. Why do you think pacifica kept asking it's allies to keep every low FAN nation with nukes staggered?

Sorry, FAN actually fought it's war till the !@#$@#$ end and only when they were too small to carry any more significant value did they try to bring the war on another level that they could still approach. NPO as per usual are looking for the easy way out. Good luck with that.
[/quote]

Remember that there was essentially two parts to the fight though. The first part was much more of a conventional fight for a time. The second fight was more of an ambush with those that could dumping into PM before it was too late.

In this case NPO was able to get a significant portion of its upper tier into PM before the fight started. Damn sloppy, uaciaut...sorry.

It's also a good time for me to pause and clarify a position. I've never suggested that the attack on NPO was totally without merit given the larger strategic picture. My objection at this point centers specifically on the proposition that it is necessary to continue the war unless reparations are paid (NPO allies) or that promises of "unconditional peace" will be kept only if NPO allows DH and its allies to make up for early mistakes in not catching more of NPO's prime nations in the initial attack. The war simply needs to end. There is always next time after all and my sense is that this isn't the last war any of us are going to see.