CSN/DT/Legacy/LoSS/R&R Peace Agreement

[Penkala]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299386256' post='2654106']
so please stop trying to spout your crap. it is clearly nothing more than a smear attempt against DT because CSN looks like !@#$ for taking reps regardless of the amount.
[/quote]

Because DT's never taken reps before.

[quote]If you think DT would have lost public support purely over numbers, then your naivety and determination to see CSN as anything but the !@#$%bags that they really are is rivaled only by your cunning, you sly dog, you. [/quote]

Right. Worst alliance ever.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Penkala

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299386682' post='2654112']
Because DT's never taken reps before.



Right. Worst alliance ever.
[/quote]

to my knowledge DT never has taken reps. i could be wrong, but i don't remember any occasion.

also never said CSN was the worst ever, just that it is obvious that due to the PR hit taken in this thread (let alone the other one), it is pretty obvious that Typo is grasping at anything in an attempt to smear DT.

[mmansfield68]

A few things to understand:

[color="#FF0000"][i]I should not have made this post, it's really not good for my health[/i][/color]

Edited March 6, 2011 by Der Kommissar
Mod Edit

[mmansfield68]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299387110' post='2654118']
to my knowledge DT never has taken reps. i could be wrong, but i don't remember any occasion.

also never said CSN was the worst ever, just that it is obvious that due to the PR hit taken in this thread (let alone the other one), it is pretty obvious that Typo is grasping at anything in an attempt to smear DT.
[/quote]
DT has never taken reps.

Reps are in[b]REP[/b]rehensible.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299387110' post='2654118']
to my knowledge DT never has taken reps. i could be wrong, but i don't remember any occasion.
[/quote]

You're wrong.

[quote]DT has never taken reps.[/quote]

Yes you have.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Penkala

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1299387380' post='2654124']
DT has never taken reps.

Reps are in[b]REP[/b]rehensible.
[/quote]
[i]In[/i]reprehensible? Agreed. Reps own.

[Buds The Man]

oh lord is this still going on

[Supa_Troop3r]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299389218' post='2654148']
You're wrong.



Yes you have.
[/quote]
Giving SSSW18 the option to do tech deals with us?
Reps?

[Penkala]

[quote name='Supa_Troop3r' timestamp='1299390392' post='2654160']
Giving SSSW18 the option to do tech deals with us?
Reps?
[/quote]

If by "the option to do tech deals with us" you mean "MADE them do tech deals with us", then yes, that's what I mean.

There was also that nice part where you made them cancel their treaties until the end of the war.

Reparations are reparations and are unacceptable, "regardless of the amount", though, right?

Edited March 6, 2011 by Penkala

[Supa_Troop3r]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299392685' post='2654185']
If by "the option to do tech deals with us" you mean "MADE them do tech deals with us", then yes, that's what I mean.

There was also that nice part where you made them cancel their treaties until the end of the war.

Reparations are reparations and are unacceptable, "regardless of the amount", though, right?
[/quote]
Try harder please. We didn't make them do tech deals with us.. It was optional.
And by cancel treaties, you mean suspend them while they were under our protection, then yes.

Now if you are going trying to compare CSN's terms on DT and DT's terms on SSSW18. Then I'd recommend to make a thread and stop trying to derail this one.
You seem unhappy that peace was agreed upon

Edit: Sorry. I'll admit when I am wrong. The wording does state that tech deals were mandatory.
During that agreement we waved most of their tech deals, and let SSSW18 off of the terms.
But again. Derail more.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Supa_Troop3r

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1299386465' post='2654108']
Haha. Grasping at straws, buddy.

We made it clear we were going to resist against absurd terms. We finally got a deal that was a bit more manageable and acceptable. We no longer wanted to drag LOSS through more war so we took the deal.

I see that "rational self-interest" is not a common concept with you.

Penkala and Jocabia were just silly...but you're a rare breed.
[/quote]

It wasn't rational self interest, rational self interest would have been taking the 40k initially. Simple math shows that. You lost at least 30k tech while negotiating the tech price down 20k. Whoops. Arrogance and pride stopped you from taking the first offer, and you tried to dress it up as some moral stand to look better.

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1299386478' post='2654109']
For somebody so smart, I'm curious how you've managed to avoid swallowing your tongue yet.
[/quote]

As a demonstration of my intellectual superiority over you allow me to dispel a common myth.

Its not actually possible to swallow your own tongue. In case you didn't notice its kind of attached. It is possible with a sever enough allergic reaction for the tongue to swell up enough to block the airway, however this is obviously not the same thing.

[quote]
If you think DT would have lost public support purely over numbers, then your naivety and determination to see CSN as anything but the !@#$%bags that they really are is rivaled only by your cunning, you sly dog, you.
[/quote]

If you think DT had public support in the first place you are a new breed of self deluded sycophant. The usual yes men squad appeared to trumped DT's virtues, but there's a war on. If you think agreement had anything at all to do with the facts you are kidding yourself. As usual Political affiliation dictated who would speak out in support.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299394839' post='2654205']
It wasn't rational self interest, rational self interest would have been taking the 40k initially. Simple math shows that. You lost at least 30k tech while negotiating the tech price down 20k. Whoops. Arrogance and pride stopped you from taking the first offer, and you tried to dress it up as some moral stand to look better.



As a demonstration of my intellectual superiority over you allow me to dispel a common myth.

Its not actually possible to swallow your own tongue. In case you didn't notice its kind of attached. It is possible with a sever enough allergic reaction for the tongue to swell up enough to block the airway, however this is obviously not the same thing.



If you think DT had public support in the first place you are a new breed of self deluded sycophant. The usual yes men squad appeared to trumped DT's virtues, but there's a war on. If you think agreement had anything at all to do with the facts you are kidding yourself. As usual Political affiliation dictated who would speak out in support.
[/quote]

Wow you are just straight out stupid. There were multiple people from the other side of the web who called BS. Now this war is over go concentrate on your set up of Polar and have fun this front is closed.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]If you think DT had public support in the first place you are a new breed of self deluded sycophant. The usual yes men squad appeared to trumped DT's virtues, but there's a war on. If you think agreement had anything at all to do with the facts you are kidding yourself. As usual Political affiliation dictated who would speak out in support. [/quote]
Yeah, I'm definitely affiliated with DT ... oh, wait.

I'm not really sure what your point is to be honest. Everyone has a number where reasonable changes to unreasonable – if an alliance was refusing to surrender because $1 was being demanded (or just an admission of defeat/surrender ) then we'd all be calling them ridiculous, and if someone was demanding a million tech the finger would be pointed at them. You're trying to make black and white something which really isn't – essentially, your argument is 'You would accept paying a dollar so why won't you accept paying a million tech'.

I'm actually surprised they agreed to sign these terms myself, I thought they would at least wait until all the reps were to Legacy, but I guess they feel that since they've destroyed more of CSN's tech than they are having to hand over, it's okay.

Furthermore, rational self interest is more than [i]material[/i] short term self interest. Paying extortionary reps sets them up as an easy target in future, gives CSN a sense of entitlement and opens the door for them and their allies to receive large reps in future. Destroying enough of CSN's stuff that they don't make a profit on the terms is likely to be better for their medium term interests. And you could make exactly the same argument to CSN: it was in their material interests to offer zero-reps peace because they lost more than they could extort.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Supa_Troop3r' timestamp='1299393897' post='2654197']
Try harder please. We didn't make them do tech deals with us.. It was optional.
And by cancel treaties, you mean suspend them while they were under our protection, then yes.

Now if you are going trying to compare CSN's terms on DT and DT's terms on SSSW18. Then I'd recommend to make a thread and stop trying to derail this one.
You seem unhappy that peace was agreed upon

Edit: Sorry. I'll admit when I am wrong. The wording does state that tech deals were mandatory.
During that agreement we waved most of their tech deals, and let SSSW18 off of the terms.
But again. Derail more.
[/quote]

I'm not "derailing". If you're going to cry so much about reparations, "regardless of the amount", I'm going to point out that you have blood on your hands, too. And based on you and your ally's comments that it should be "remembered" that CSN took reps in the future, it should have been "remembered" that YOU took reps before. So maybe you had this coming to you after all, eh?

[quote]Furthermore, rational self interest is more than material short term self interest. Paying extortionary reps sets them up as an easy target in future, gives CSN a sense of entitlement and opens the door for them and their allies to receive large reps in future. [/quote]

So making SSSW18 pay reps opened the door for CSN to ask for reps? So it's OK now?

Edited March 6, 2011 by Penkala

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299394839' post='2654205']
If you think DT had public support in the first place you are a new breed of self deluded sycophant. The usual yes men squad appeared to trumped DT's virtues, but there's a war on. If you think agreement had anything at all to do with the facts you are kidding yourself. As usual Political affiliation dictated who would speak out in support.
[/quote]

yes, cuz i am sure those MK members and the other guys on your side of the war would be the Usual Yes Men for DT.... who is the self-delusional one cuz it sure ain't us.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299424815' post='2654428']
I'm not "derailing". If you're going to cry so much about reparations, "regardless of the amount", I'm going to point out that you have blood on your hands, too. And based on you and your ally's comments that it should be "remembered" that CSN took reps in the future, it should have been "remembered" that YOU took reps before. So maybe you had this coming to you after all, eh?



So making SSSW18 pay reps opened the door for CSN to ask for reps? So it's OK now?
[/quote]

yes, tech deals are completely the same thing as 5k tech direct from our 2k+ nations.... are you seriously that stupid? do you know what a tech deal is? it seems you don't. a tech deal is where Nation A sends Nations B through G 3 million. Nations B through G then send 100 tech each to Nation A. now, what DT has to do with CSN is send 5,000 tech directly to CSN without any cash compensation from nations whose tech would cost more than 3m/100 tech. Then there is the fact that treaty suspension is basically a no re-entry clause... but yes, continue to try and make DT out to be this hugely bad thing. just like with Typo, you only look like a complete idiot while doing so, but please continue.

yes, that is totally the same. As for our ally saying that CSN should take reps in the future, our ally now equals DT? again, we are not CSN where other alliances can speak for us. DT speaks for DT. if our ally wants to remember that CSN should take reps, then that is them.

[hizzy]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299430304' post='2654472']
yes, cuz i am sure those MK members and the other guys on your side of the war would be the Usual Yes Men for DT.... who is the self-delusional one cuz it sure ain't us.
[/quote]

Never mind a prominent member of his own alliance. And then there's me, I didn't even know who CSN was. They actually managed to pry my nukes away from GOONS, and if you wanna ask anybody from GOONS, that's not an easy thing to do.

Edited March 6, 2011 by hizzy

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1299423572' post='2654419']
I'm not really sure what your point is to be honest.
[/quote]

My point is two fold, first DT keeps changing its story, and second they burned for (at least) 30k tech while negotiating the price down 20k tech.

When it was 40k tech we saw claims of principles, since they went back on their principles and payed anyway now its 'reasoned self interest' or 'wanting to their their allies out'.

Well the last two are easily falsified, if they wanted their allies out they could have told LoSS to take the white peace they had on the table instead of declaring, and even after that 40k is still cheaper than the 50k combined they took now. reasoned self interest would have had this solved weeks ago.

I just wanted somebody to admit their two faced approach to this whole affair, and one of them did, I'm happy. My point was never if they should have payed (though personally I think they should have), or why they did, it was entirely their changing the story of their motives half way through.

Also, I'd expect MK to support DT, since NoR was holding their help on the NPO front hostage to DT getting peace, they had a political interest in seeing DT get peace. My theory that OWF position can largely be predetermined by Political affiliation still holds up

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299435880' post='2654533']
My point is two fold, first DT keeps changing its story, and second they burned for (at least) 30k tech while negotiating the price down 20k tech.

When it was 40k tech we saw claims of principles, since they went back on their principles and payed anyway now its 'reasoned self interest' or 'wanting to their their allies out'.

Well the last two are easily falsified, if they wanted their allies out they could have told LoSS to take the white peace they had on the table instead of declaring, and even after that 40k is still cheaper than the 50k combined they took now. reasoned self interest would have had this solved weeks ago.

I just wanted somebody to admit their two faced approach to this whole affair, and one of them did, I'm happy. My point was never if they should have payed (though personally I think they should have), or why they did, it was entirely their changing the story of their motives half way through.

Also, I'd expect MK to support DT, since NoR was holding their help on the NPO front hostage to DT getting peace, they had a political interest in seeing DT get peace. My theory that OWF position can largely be predetermined by Political affiliation still holds up
[/quote]

LoSS refused to peace out until DT did. i know it has been mentioned before and that it is obvious you fail to read anything that refutes your arguments but it should be mentioned again. thus the whole "LoSS could have taken white peace" has been refuted. LoSS could have done that with TIO as well but chose not to.

Again, losing tech through war is still preferable to giving it to CSN. and again you fail at reading. the terms are for 20k tech or 5k tech and the rest in cash conversions. so please stop spouting the number 20k tech as if i never once mentioned the cash conversion of 15k of that 20k. it truly does make you look utterly incompetent and stupid.

and you still fail to grasp why 40k is utterly different from 5k tech and $450 million in cash (particularly since you keep ignorantly stating that the terms are for only 20k tech). So our principles have not faltered in the slightest. We refused to pay 40k tech directly to CSN and now we are only paying 5k tech directly. that is a decrease of 35k tech. the rest of the reps are $150 million to CSN and $300 million to Legacy.

so, again, you utterly fail at everything and it is getting tiresome repeating the same !@#$ over and over again because you think you are intelligent. your theory fails horribly due mostly to the fact that most Umbrella members who have posted have supported CSN and they also would benefit from NoR joining the war effort. so i don't think political affiliation has much to do with it since MK also has far more ties with CSN than they do with DT and NoR joining the front helps out MK but really, not by all that much. frankly, you are denser than anyone i have ever met.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Dochartaigh

[hizzy]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299435880' post='2654533']
My point is two fold, first DT keeps changing its story, and second they burned for (at least) 30k tech while negotiating the price down 20k tech.

When it was 40k tech we saw claims of principles, since they went back on their principles and payed anyway now its 'reasoned self interest' or 'wanting to their their allies out'.

Well the last two are easily falsified, if they wanted their allies out they could have told LoSS to take the white peace they had on the table instead of declaring, and even after that 40k is still cheaper than the 50k combined they took now. reasoned self interest would have had this solved weeks ago.

I just wanted somebody to admit their two faced approach to this whole affair, and one of them did, I'm happy. My point was never if they should have payed (though personally I think they should have), or why they did, it was entirely their changing the story of their motives half way through.

Also, I'd expect MK to support DT, since NoR was holding their help on the NPO front hostage to DT getting peace, they had a political interest in seeing DT get peace. My theory that OWF position can largely be predetermined by Political affiliation still holds up
[/quote]

"MK's war on NPO literally depends on Nordreich's arrival." Typoninja, 2011

And I'm still waiting on your answer to whether or not CSN should pay me off in order to stop me from nuking their nations. Any input there, Sherlock?

[Cynic2]

In regards to all of the chest puffing that has gone on in here, in particular between LoSS and CSN I would like to point out a few things both to CSN and to my alliance mates: First and foremost arguing over who did the most damage is pointless since the war is over and CSN agreed to white peace with LoSS. LoSS also agreed to white peace with CSN, and if we were clearly winning as is being claimed by LoSS members in this thread then surely we could have gotten CSN to agree to white peace with DT instead of the terms that were agreed upon.

CSN took a lot of damage the statistics don't lie, but those statistics can be misleading. CSN did not only lose NS as a direct result of losing technology or infrastructure to LoSS. They were also fighting DT plus as has been pointed out already using nukes = you lose NS. Statistically the only area where LoSS actually was not outgunned by CSN was in their middle and lower tiers, we have historically been a bottom heavy alliance so it really should come as no surprise to anybody that LoSS got roughed up a lot in our upper tier. If CSN had not dominated us in the upper ranks I would have thought them incompetent for failing to achieve results in the area where they had a distinctive advantage, likewise I would have questioned the competency of we at LoSS had we not fought very well in the middle and lower tiers where we had the numbers to do so.

Did CSN take a lot of damage in this war? Of course they did but you know what, so did DT and so did LoSS, for that matter every alliance that was a part of this front took at least some damage. There were no clear cut, dominating victors here and anyone who claims that there were is being disingenuous.

Others in this thread who fought on this battlefield would do well to follow the CSN MoFA's example and congratulate everyone on a hard fought, prolonged war and a fun time had by all.

I am proud of how well LoSS fought in the circumstances under which we found ourselves. I don't think that anyone that we engaged on the battlefield are going to deny that we were true warriors who didn't back down. We should acknowledge that the same is true for those who engaged us and at the very least not disrespect their efforts. Our part in this war has come to a close, let us move on to the rebuilding phase instead of beating our chests and arguing back and forth over whether we outfought anybody or not as attempting to shame our enemies accomplishes nothing.

[Monster]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299437764' post='2654551']


so, again, you utterly fail at everything and it is getting tiresome repeating the same !@#$ over and over again because you think you are intelligent. your theory fails horribly due mostly to the fact that most Umbrella members who have posted have supported CSN and they also would benefit from NoR joining the war effort. so i don't think political affiliation has much to do with it since MK also has far more ties with CSN than they do with DT and NoR joining the front helps out MK but really, not by all that much. frankly, you are denser than anyone i have ever met.
[/quote]

Initially, I was just upset with DT over some actions taken by that alliance against mine before this, so I think most of the posting was based on that though I didn't notice a lot of people come out. I ended up letting it go and I just wanted it resolved one way or another after that.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299394839' post='2654205']
It wasn't rational self interest, rational self interest would have been taking the 40k initially. Simple math shows that. You lost at least 30k tech while negotiating the tech price down 20k. Whoops. Arrogance and pride stopped you from taking the first offer, and you tried to dress it up as some moral stand to look better.[/quote]

Simple math should have also included the amount CSN lost during the same period in your calculations. Unfortunately you are a victim of your own arrogance and pride.

[quote]If you think DT had public support in the first place you are a new breed of self deluded sycophant.[/quote]

Pulling out the $5 words really isn't helping here.

[quote]The usual yes men squad appeared to trumped DT's virtues, but there's a war on. If you think agreement had anything at all to do with the facts you are kidding yourself. As usual Political affiliation dictated who would speak out in support.[/quote]

If you were being honest, you would admit that your attack here is nothing more than [b]you[/b] being a "yes man". I'll give you points for towing the party line, but you're not helping anyone.

[Amossio]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299435880' post='2654533']

Well the last two are easily falsified, if they wanted their allies out they could have told LoSS to take the white peace they had on the table instead of declaring, and even after that 40k is still cheaper than the 50k combined they took now. reasoned self interest would have had this solved weeks ago.
[/quote]

You never fail to amuse me.
LoSS is not a self serving alliance that takes out peace when allies are still fighting, there was no way LoSS would have peaced out after defending an ally whom was still fighting, thus even if DT told LoSS to take white peace LoSS would have not done so. Thus DT did what they only could do, they came in via a valid treaty to help LoSS. Same can't be said about CSN though, remind me typoninja, which treaty did CSN came in under??

[hizzy]

tbqh I don't know why so many of you are taking Typo seriously. He's obviously a figment of his own imagination.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299430304' post='2654472']
yes, tech deals are completely the same thing as 5k tech direct from our 2k+ nations.... are you seriously that stupid? do you know what a tech deal is? it seems you don't. a tech deal is where Nation A sends Nations B through G 3 million. Nations B through G then send 100 tech each to Nation A. now, what DT has to do with CSN is send 5,000 tech directly to CSN without any cash compensation from nations whose tech would cost more than 3m/100 tech. Then there is the fact that treaty suspension is basically a no re-entry clause... but yes, continue to try and make DT out to be this hugely bad thing. just like with Typo, you only look like a complete idiot while doing so, but please continue.
[/quote]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' ]because CSN looks like !@#$ for taking reps regardless of the amount. [/quote]

Let's zoom in for a closer look!

[quote name='Dochartaigh' ]regardless of the amount.[/quote]

Reps are reps are reps. Period. You made an alliance you defeated pay you reparations, and based on your two claims that A) An alliance who demands reps from another deserves to have reps demanded of them at some point in the future, and B) That reps are bad "regardless of the amount", we can conclude that C) The reps you demanded of others are, in your eyes, just as bad as the reps CSN demanded of DT, and therefore, D) DT deserved to have reparations levied upon it, CSN was not in the wrong, and justice has been served.

It's simple, really. I'm just using your own arguments against you.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Penkala