CSN/DT/Legacy/LoSS/R&R Peace Agreement

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299280086' post='2652796']
No, I can do basic math, holding out for better terms really only works when its NPO sized Karma reps. Freaking huge. DT could have paid off half the initial 40k in the time they wasted negotiating it down, the terms were too small to be worth the effort.
[/quote]

Pride gets in the way almost 100% of the time and in situations like this it's fine for it to come out.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='AuiNur' timestamp='1299280423' post='2652804']
Because, clearly, the amount of reparations was the only thing we fought for.
[/quote]

Well yes, since those much vaunted principles and morals that wouldn't let you pay reps initial didn't come into play, since DT payed anyway. Just like I called it in the other thread.

DT spent a great deal of time repeating how it objected to paying anything, on grounds other than the cost. So did all those reasons vanish? Either DT's 'moral' objections were nothing more than a bargaining and PR tool, or you've gone back on them. Which is it?

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1299281381' post='2652819']
Pride gets in the way almost 100% of the time and in situations like this it's fine for it to come out.
[/quote]

I seem to be rather unique in this outlook. Perhaps I'm even a bit of a softie about it;

I view government positions as service. Government holds a duty to do what is best for the alliance and its membership, personal wishes must come secondary to the greater good for one's alliance. Allowing pride to dictate to you in such a situation would a failure in ones duty in my opinion.

DT let their pride get in the way, for no gain at all. They still payed something, which defeats all their claims of moral objections, [i]and[/i] they suffered more damage than they managed to negotiate off the terms. It was a lose lose.

Edited March 5, 2011 by TypoNinja

[Bob Janova]

[quote]holding out for better terms really only works when its NPO sized Karma reps[/quote]
DT were around 50 members, NPO around 500, so you're talking an equivalent of 400,000 tech. Now that isn't quite as big as NPO's Karma terms but it's in the same kind of numbers.

[twodivine]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299283753' post='2652858']
Well yes, since those much vaunted principles and morals that wouldn't let you pay reps initial didn't come into play, since DT payed anyway. Just like I called it in the other thread.

DT spent a great deal of time repeating how it objected to paying anything, on grounds other than the cost. So did all those reasons vanish? Either DT's 'moral' objections were nothing more than a bargaining and PR tool, or you've gone back on them. Which is it?



I seem to be rather unique in this outlook. Perhaps I'm even a bit of a softie about it;

I view government positions as service. Government holds a duty to do what is best for the alliance and its membership, personal wishes must come secondary to the greater good for one's alliance. Allowing pride to dictate to you in such a situation would a failure in ones duty in my opinion.

DT let their pride get in the way, for no gain at all. They still payed something, which defeats all their claims of moral objections, [i]and[/i] they suffered more damage than they managed to negotiate off the terms. It was a lose lose.
[/quote]
What? You like beating a dead subject like Penkala?

We continued the war because we didn't like having to pay 40k in tech. Who cares about the loses that either side had when we continued fighting. We don't care about our pixels. If we did then we'd be some neutral alliance watching everyone blow up each other while taking a financial loss due to everyone raising the GRL.

We came to terms for our own reason and for our allies. Could we of continued to fight? Yup. But we came to a resolution because there was no reason to be at war and there were more important things us and allies could be doing besides sitting around blowing more stuff up, having talks that don't go anywhere, and put up with idiots spinning topics about stuff they are not involved in and speculate while their head is so far up their backsides that you still can't reach far enough or pull hard enough to get it out. And when it does come out the whole Plant Bob just might hear it come out and we'll have to issue out donut rings so they'll be able to sit down again from the pain.

So lets just let this subject die. War is over. People got white peace and others have to pay reps.

[AuiNur]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299283753' post='2652858']
Well yes, since those much vaunted principles and morals that wouldn't let you pay reps initial didn't come into play, since DT payed anyway. Just like I called it in the other thread.

DT spent a great deal of time repeating how it objected to paying anything, on grounds other than the cost. So did all those reasons vanish? Either DT's 'moral' objections were nothing more than a bargaining and PR tool, or you've gone back on them. Which is it?







I view government positions as service. Government holds a duty to do what is best for the alliance and its membership, personal wishes must come secondary to the greater good for one's alliance. Allowing pride to dictate to you in such a situation would a failure in ones duty in my opinion.

DT let their pride get in the way, for no gain at all. They still payed something, which defeats all their claims of moral objections, [i]and[/i] they suffered more damage than they managed to negotiate off the terms. It was a lose lose.
[/quote]


Keep in mind that these are only the opinions of a single DT member, but I feel like I represent the feelings of DT's general membership pretty well.

Disregard any opinions you had afterwards on how we handled negotiations, did you [u]initially[/u] feel that the reparations were justified at all? To quote you, the "government holds a duty to do what is best for the alliance and its membership." Interpreting the quote a little deeper, wouldn't a government's first priority be to make sure that the alliance is an alliance in itself? Meaning, a SOVEREIGN community of nations coming together for the support and well-being of each other? We originally fought only for LoSS, but when CSN, this outside power, started to trample over our self-containing union of 47 nations, then thats when we also started fighting for our community itself. It is without question that DT & LoSS were at a statistical disadvantage, but just because "Might makes Right" doesn't mean we have to follow this rule. If we're going to have something stripped away from us (and that something is in the form of 40,000 technology) then we might as well make sure they fight for it.

Yes, there comes a time when fighting for one's own ideals simply becomes unreasonable and illogical and that is when one puts up and shuts up. But in the end, if I make my enemies fight to the teeth for every lost piece of my nation, then I believe I still possess the most valuable thing one can possess, the Pride of one's own alliance. Undoubtedly, the other DT members resonate this feeling as well. After all, take away the alliance, and a nation simply becomes a congregation of pixels which becomes a very, very juicy raid target for others.

[hizzy]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299283753' post='2652858']
Well yes, since those much vaunted principles and morals that wouldn't let you pay reps initial didn't come into play, since DT payed anyway. Just like I called it in the other thread.

DT spent a great deal of time repeating how it objected to paying anything, on grounds other than the cost. So did all those reasons vanish? Either DT's 'moral' objections were nothing more than a bargaining and PR tool, or you've gone back on them. Which is it?



I seem to be rather unique in this outlook. Perhaps I'm even a bit of a softie about it;

I view government positions as service. Government holds a duty to do what is best for the alliance and its membership, personal wishes must come secondary to the greater good for one's alliance. Allowing pride to dictate to you in such a situation would a failure in ones duty in my opinion.

DT let their pride get in the way, for no gain at all. They still payed something, which defeats all their claims of moral objections, [i]and[/i] they suffered more damage than they managed to negotiate off the terms. It was a lose lose.
[/quote]

It's rare that I get a gift like this but allow me to break down your argument into a few simple points:

1) One's pride should not get in the way of doing what is best for the collective (the members).
2) It is statistically advantageous to pay a larger sum (cash and/or tech) early on rather than pay a smaller sum after going through a destructive period, the total of which would surpass the initial larger sum.
3) Payments which are "relatively small" are not worth the effort of bargaining or the risk of destruction, particularly because any change is almost negligible.

I would like to propose to you, then, that CSN should pay me a sum of 600 tech, in exchange for my cessation of hostilities against them. By your own logic, if CSN agrees to this right now, they can have the tech paid off in a mere 10 days, at a market loss of $18 million.

The alternative is that within those 10 days I will drop a minimum of 10 nukes on CSN, destroying at least 550 tech in the process, as well as spy away well over $18 million in cash reserves, all while stealing another 100-200 tech for myself.

As you suggested, CSN's leaders should

1) swallow their pride
2) do the math
3) don't bother arguing (it's only 18 mil in tech)

and pay up.

Did I get that right?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299278864' post='2652780']
You'd be in the running too for failing basic math. You dragged a war out to negotiate better terms, but took more damage from the extended conflict than you managed to get knocked off terms.

DT gov knows how to add and subtract right?
[/quote]

i think the issue lies in the fact that DT and you are speaking 2 very different languages. DT did not fight [i]just[/i] to get better terms. We fought to cause CSN far more damage than was necessary. We fought to ensure that even if CSN got reps, even 40k, it would not come anywhere close to what was needed to repair the damage we did them. We fought to ensure that CSN learned its own lesson about demanding stupid-ass terms for a peripheral war that should have ended in white peace.

It does appear that some took said lesson home and hopefully in the future CSN will know better.

as for why we ended up paying reps is due to not wanting to keep LoSS, Legacy, and RnR in a war that should have ended by the second week. Our principles and morals there overrode our pride.

Also- you do realize that the gov talked frequently with the members of DT and knew that all of us would have continued fighting and most wanted to. so please stop talking about our gov as if you know a damn thing about what happened internally in DT.

now that it is obvious you have no clue what you speak of, you should probably drop this subject as your ignorance is clearly showing.

[mythicknight]

I believe an "Oh Snap" is in order.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='mythicknight' timestamp='1299289541' post='2652963']
I believe an "Oh Snap" is in order.


[/quote]

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

[Farnsworth]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1299288264' post='2652933']
It's rare that I get a gift like this but allow me to break down your argument into a few simple points:

1) One's pride should not get in the way of doing what is best for the collective (the members).
2) It is statistically advantageous to pay a larger sum (cash and/or tech) early on rather than pay a smaller sum after going through a destructive period, the total of which would surpass the initial larger sum.
3) Payments which are "relatively small" are not worth the effort of bargaining or the risk of destruction, particularly because any change is almost negligible.

I would like to propose to you, then, that CSN should pay me a sum of 600 tech, in exchange for my cessation of hostilities against them. By your own logic, if CSN agrees to this right now, they can have the tech paid off in a mere 10 days, at a market loss of $18 million.

The alternative is that within those 10 days I will drop a minimum of 10 nukes on CSN, destroying at least 550 tech in the process, as well as spy away well over $18 million in cash reserves, all while stealing another 100-200 tech for myself.

As you suggested, CSN's leaders should

1) swallow their pride
2) do the math
3) don't bother arguing (it's only 18 mil in tech)

and pay up.

Did I get that right?
[/quote]

Shhh... logic doesn't work here. I won't tell anyone you have tampered with the fragile minds of OWF if you agree to keep further outbursts of logic on the DL, okay?

[mmansfield68]

Oh Snap!

Doch

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1299288264' post='2652933']
It's rare that I get a gift like this but allow me to break down your argument into a few simple points:

1) One's pride should not get in the way of doing what is best for the collective (the members).
2) It is statistically advantageous to pay a larger sum (cash and/or tech) early on rather than pay a smaller sum after going through a destructive period, the total of which would surpass the initial larger sum.
3) Payments which are "relatively small" are not worth the effort of bargaining or the risk of destruction, particularly because any change is almost negligible.

I would like to propose to you, then, that CSN should pay me a sum of 600 tech, in exchange for my cessation of hostilities against them. By your own logic, if CSN agrees to this right now, they can have the tech paid off in a mere 10 days, at a market loss of $18 million.

The alternative is that within those 10 days I will drop a minimum of 10 nukes on CSN, destroying at least 550 tech in the process, as well as spy away well over $18 million in cash reserves, all while stealing another 100-200 tech for myself.

As you suggested, CSN's leaders should

1) swallow their pride
2) do the math
3) don't bother arguing (it's only 18 mil in tech)

and pay up.

Did I get that right?
[/quote]

No, you are doing whats known as argument ad absurdum (also known as Reductio ad absurdum), taking a superficially logical progression to a ridiculous extreme in an attempt to show that just because it doesn't work for that one absurd scenario its a bad idea always. This is obviously a flawed thought pattern.

You see by your logic you should pay me an ongoing fee of 50 tech a every ten days till the end of time, this will be a far cheaper (and less disruptive) solution than me declaring on you and dropping some nukes. Cut out the middle man as it were, why fight in the first place if we can agree that just paying me off is cheaper?

Though you did make a good summary of my points before tying your logic into a pretzel.


[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299288704' post='2652947']
i think the issue lies in the fact that DT and you are speaking 2 very different languages. DT did not fight [i]just[/i] to get better terms. We fought to cause CSN far more damage than was necessary. We fought to ensure that even if CSN got reps, even 40k, it would not come anywhere close to what was needed to repair the damage we did them. We fought to ensure that CSN learned its own lesson about demanding stupid-ass terms for a peripheral war that should have ended in white peace.
[/quote]

This is patently false anyway, 40k tech was a pittance compared to any nuclear war anyway. Hell NPO's 10 billion and 350k tech was a pittance compared to the damage done in nuclear war. No Reps ever come close to addressing actual damages.

You fought to do damage and counted this is a victory because you got to keep tossing nukes, you appear to have forgotten that you also eat nukes. Saying that you did more damage is meaningless, since you took more too.

[quote]It does appear that some took said lesson home and hopefully in the future CSN will know better. [/quote]

I think you are taking the wrong lesson away, you got yourself and your allies an extra 3 weeks of war because of your pride. That is not a win for you.

[quote]
as for why we ended up paying reps is due to not wanting to keep LoSS, Legacy, and RnR in a war that should have ended by the second week. Our principles and morals there overrode our pride.[/quote]

And where were these pretty motives 3 weeks before these terms when you got the 40k offer? You ran to the OWF and whined instead of "not wanting to keep LoSS, Legacy, and RnR in a war that should have ended after the second week"

Let me spell it out directly since its been glossed over a few times now. You 'principles' have changed drastically between not paying and paying. There is a large contradiction no one has justified.

[quote]Also- you do realize that the gov talked frequently with the members of DT and knew that all of us would have continued fighting and most wanted to. so please stop talking about our gov as if you know a damn thing about what happened internally in DT.[/quote]

Just because a foolish action is popular does not stop it from being foolish.

[quote]
now that it is obvious you have no clue what you speak of, you should probably drop this subject as your ignorance is clearly showing.
[/quote]

I've missed something? Let's try a recap then,

DT got offered 40k reps. Turned in down in talks, then ran to the OWF to whine about the evils of CSN.

In the whine thread it was established that DT had moral/principled objections to paying DT. As evidenced by you flipping from talking about reps to asking for white peace in the log dump.

17 days later, after dragging their allies and themselves through yet more nuclear war DT still pays reps.

DT pretends to still be some kind of moral paragon in the surrender thread while ignoring the inherent contraction of their positions from pre-surrender to post-surrender.

DT attempts to justify dropping their supposed principles by saying they wanted peace for their allies. Peace that could have been had 17 days ago.


So I ask again, if your motive as you now claim was securing peace for your allies, why was 40k tech too high a price to pay, but 20k not? Though the discount seems moot since you took that much more damage waiting it out. Which again, if the goal was allied peace one would imagine that stopping damage to said allies would have been a high priority.

[twodivine]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299300859' post='2653147']
I've missed something? Let's try a recap then,

DT got offered 40k reps. Turned in down in talks, then ran to the OWF to whine about the evils of CSN.

In the whine thread it was established that DT had moral/principled objections to paying DT. As evidenced by you flipping from talking about reps to asking for white peace in the log dump.

17 days later, after dragging their allies and themselves through yet more nuclear war DT still pays reps.

DT pretends to still be some kind of moral paragon in the surrender thread while ignoring the inherent contraction of their positions from pre-surrender to post-surrender.

DT attempts to justify dropping their supposed principles by saying they wanted peace for their allies. Peace that could have been had 17 days ago.


So I ask again, if your motive as you now claim was securing peace for your allies, why was 40k tech too high a price to pay, but 20k not? Though the discount seems moot since you took that much more damage waiting it out. Which again, if the goal was allied peace one would imagine that stopping damage to said allies would have been a high priority.
[/quote]

Yeah you missed it where I told you to drop it. As DT gov member this has been discussed in multiple threads. The war is over there was white peace and there was reps.

You want to know why that 40k is to high then go read the other thread and blogs done on this.

Game over. Move one. Go put your head back is some crevice that the sun doesn't shine and move on. The discussion on this has been and over with.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299300859' post='2653147']
This is patently false anyway, 40k tech was a pittance compared to any nuclear war anyway. Hell NPO's 10 billion and 350k tech was a pittance compared to the damage done in nuclear war. No Reps ever come close to addressing actual damages.

You fought to do damage and counted this is a victory because you got to keep tossing nukes, you appear to have forgotten that you also eat nukes. Saying that you did more damage is meaningless, since you took more too.[/quote]

and you are patently ridiculous. you do realize that had CSN peaced out within the 1st week, that nuclear war would have not lasted long in the least. which would have saved them much more damage. the fact that they asked for 40k tech reps is what caused the war to last longer.

again, we never cared about how much damage we took. We only cared about how much damage CSN took. 1.3 million lost by DT versus 3 million lost by CSN.

[quote]I think you are taking the wrong lesson away, you got yourself and your allies an extra 3 weeks of war because of your pride. That is not a win for you.[/quote]

the lesson i took away from this is "don't ask for reps of any sort for a peripheral war"...no wait, any moron would know that to begin with...

[quote]And where were these pretty motives 3 weeks before these terms when you got the 40k offer? You ran to the OWF and whined instead of "not wanting to keep LoSS, Legacy, and RnR in a war that should have ended after the second week"

Let me spell it out directly since its been glossed over a few times now. You 'principles' have changed drastically between not paying and paying. There is a large contradiction no one has justified.[/quote]

3 weeks ago, LoSS was fine with staying at war. the night before the peace agreement, LoSS was fine with staying at war. me, personally, i have already stated i could give two !@#$% about Legacy or RnR. i may like many in Legacy, but they were the opponent and were supporting CSN in trying to get reps from DT. Legacy and RnR are both innocent and were only supporting an ally which is respectable to a point. so why continue to drag them through a war that CSN could have easily ended a long time ago? The principles are still there and the contradiction has been justified multiple times. it simply appears you don't wish to see it because to do so would mean you admitting you are wrong elsewhere.



[quote]Just because a foolish action is popular does not stop it from being foolish.[/quote]

yup- ask CSN. the foolish action became popular and Goose had to back down hardcore from his "NO MORE NEGOTIATIONS!!!!" blog post now didn't he? so basically it appears that CSN is more than willing to back down from their principles given time and what not. or it could be that reason finally came around to both sides and they worked out a compromise... but that is obviously to logical for you Typo.

here, just for you- little green men came down and threatened both DT and CSN that if they do not agree to terms that the little green men gave them, the little green men would destroy both alliances. that fits more with your logic.



[quote]I've missed something?[/quote]

yup, given what you posted below, you clearly are missing everything.

[quote]Let's try a recap then,

DT got offered 40k reps. Turned in down in talks, then ran to the OWF to whine about the evils of CSN.

In the whine thread it was established that DT had moral/principled objections to paying DT. As evidenced by you flipping from talking about reps to asking for white peace in the log dump.

17 days later, after dragging their allies and themselves through yet more nuclear war DT still pays reps.

DT pretends to still be some kind of moral paragon in the surrender thread while ignoring the inherent contraction of their positions from pre-surrender to post-surrender.

DT attempts to justify dropping their supposed principles by saying they wanted peace for their allies. Peace that could have been had 17 days ago.[/quote]

this was already explained. i tire of your ignorance. if you do not wish to actually even attempt to debate, then just stop. you constantly bringing up the same !@#$ over and over and over and over and over and over again, as if it is anything new and then claiming you never got an answer when several have answered it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is getting stupid.


[quote]So I ask again, if your motive as you now claim was securing peace for your allies, why was 40k tech too high a price to pay, but 20k not? Though the discount seems moot since you took that much more damage waiting it out. Which again, if the goal was allied peace one would imagine that stopping damage to said allies would have been a high priority.
[/quote]

40k tech is too high since out of that 30k had to be paid directly from DT (iirc from our 2k+ tech nations).

20k tech of which 15k tech can be paid using cash conversion and only 5k tech is direct is much more acceptable.

again, please please stop. your sheer ignorance of all that is involved is mindnumbing. the fact that you actually believe this is astounding. honestly, i think you have far surpassed Penkala in looking like a complete and utter fool.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1299301387' post='2653154']
Yeah you missed it where I told you to drop it. As DT gov member this has been discussed in multiple threads. The war is over there was white peace and there was reps.

You want to know why that 40k is to high then go read the other thread and blogs done on this.

Game over. Move one. Go put your head back is some crevice that the sun doesn't shine and move on. The discussion on this has been and over with.
[/quote]

I can understand you wanting to brush this under the table, since its a large public embarrassment for your alliance, but I'm here 'till my questions are answered.


[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299302796' post='2653169']
this was already explained. i tire of your ignorance. if you do not wish to actually even attempt to debate, then just stop. you constantly bringing up the same !@#$ over and over and over and over and over and over again, as if it is anything new and then claiming you never got an answer when several have answered it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is getting stupid.
[/quote]

No it hasn't or I wouldn't keep asking, you keep deflecting. Changing the subject does not count as explaining.


[quote]40k tech is too high since out of that 30k had to be paid directly from DT (iirc from our 2k+ tech nations).

20k tech of which 15k tech can be paid using cash conversion and only 5k tech is direct is much more acceptable. [/quote]

What about those moral objections and principles we heard so much about in the other thread?

[quote]
again, please please stop. your sheer ignorance of all that is involved is mindnumbing. the fact that you actually believe this is astounding. honestly, i think you have far surpassed Penkala in looking like a complete and utter fool.
[/quote]

Name calling doesn't accomplish anything here. There is an obvious contradiction in DT's position before and after their surrender. I seek to have it explained. If all you can do is name call in response I'm going to go with my initial assumption of DT simply throwing a public pity party to try and influence talks, and your 'moral' stance being merely a ploy.

Edited March 5, 2011 by TypoNinja

[twodivine]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299305327' post='2653223']
No it hasn't or I wouldn't keep asking, you keep deflecting. changing the subject does not count as explaining.





What about those moral objections and principles we heard so much about in the other thread?



Name calling doesn't accomplish anything here. There is an obvious contradiction in DT's position before and after their surrender. I seek to have it explained. If all you can do is name call in response I'm going to go with my initial assumption of DT simply throwing a public pity party to try and influence talks, and your 'moral' stance being merely a ploy.
[/quote]
Look it doesn't matter and we don't care what you think about your assumptions. Our views and reasons have been posted. Reading does wonders for those that want to learn. Go do it.

[General Ozujsko]

Typo, the war is over and we've all gone home...give it up.

Also, "paid."

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299305327' post='2653223']
I can understand you wanting to brush this under the table, since its a large public embarrassment for your alliance, but I'm here 'till my questions are answered.




No it hasn't or I wouldn't keep asking, you keep deflecting. Changing the subject does not count as explaining.




What about those moral objections and principles we heard so much about in the other thread?



Name calling doesn't accomplish anything here. There is an obvious contradiction in DT's position before and after their surrender. I seek to have it explained. If all you can do is name call in response I'm going to go with my initial assumption of DT simply throwing a public pity party to try and influence talks, and your 'moral' stance being merely a ploy.
[/quote]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. we have explained it. you just fail at either reading or understanding. either way the fault lies solely with you and no one else. i suggest you read the multiple replies to this question and think real hard. if needed, ask someone else to explain it to you since you obviously need that done. either way, i like the others are done with you. keep up looking like a fool but you seem to be working rather hard at it, should get that clown suit dry cleaned sometime soon mate.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299369158' post='2653868']
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. we have explained it. you just fail at either reading or understanding. either way the fault lies solely with you and no one else. i suggest you read the multiple replies to this question and think real hard. if needed, ask someone else to explain it to you since you obviously need that done. either way, i like the others are done with you. keep up looking like a fool but you seem to be working rather hard at it, should get that clown suit dry cleaned sometime soon mate.
[/quote]

No, you haven't answered his question.

He's not asking why 20k is better or easier to pay than 40k. That's obvious and easy to answer.

He's asking why you were all claiming that you wouldn't accept peace other than white peace under any conditions, then... accepted terms other than white peace.

He's asking why 40k is too high of a price for you to pay to abandon that concept, but 20k isn't.

You know what he's asking, and you aren't answering it. Either that or you [i]don't[/i] know what he's asking, in which case, you really shouldn't be criticizing the reading comprehension of others...

[quote]Welcome back, mouthbreather. [snip] Who is being childish? How are they being childish?[/quote]

You make it too easy.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Penkala

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299371679' post='2653897']
No, you haven't answered his question.

He's not asking why 20k is better or easier to pay than 40k. That's obvious and easy to answer.

He's asking why you were all claiming that you wouldn't accept peace other than white peace under any conditions, then... accepted terms other than white peace.

He's asking why 40k is too high of a price for you to pay to abandon that concept, but 20k isn't.

You know what he's asking, and you aren't answering it. Either that or you [i]don't[/i] know what he's asking, in which case, you really shouldn't be criticizing the reading comprehension of others...
[/quote]

actually we did answer it.

1) not sure if it was stated "under any circumstances"
2) after 4 more weeks of fighting and getting the terms not only cut in half but also getting the terms to CSN cut by 75%, we felt that LoSS, Legacy, and RnR should be allowed out of this war and swallowed our pride.
3) 40k was too high solely because it went to CSN only. This set of terms has half of the reps go to Legacy which DT was fine with since they were the alliance DT actually attacked. Now out of the 20k tech, only 5k tech actually needs to be paid. the rest can be paid using cash conversion. so in reality, the terms are 5k tech to CSN, and $450 million to both CSN and Legacy. so, the actual tech amount is a mere 1/8th of the 40k tech that Typo keeps throwing around.

so yes, his questions were answered not only by myself but by others. not only that but had he used some sort of common sense and read the terms, he would have realized #3 all on his own (the part about the break down of the 20k tech). considering he kept saying 20k tech, it is obvious he was already coming in ignorant of what the terms state. i did not even include the fact that Legacy's reps can be paid by any alliance excluding LoSS. which means our allies could pay off Legacy's reps which means that the full reps for DT is 5k tech and $150 million in cash. now, if Typo is incapable of realizing that 5k tech and $150 million is far, far better than 40k tech and would encourage DT to swallow its pride and morals (in regards to not paying reps to CSN) in order to ensure that we help get LoSS out of war finally (as well as RnR and definitely Legacy who was gracious enough to work with DT to get the 20k tech terms of which 10k went to Legacy) then frankly, he is being either intentionally ignorant or is trying to push some sort of propaganda against DT. either way he looks like a fool while doing so.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1299379195' post='2654005']
actually we did answer it.

1) not sure if it was stated "under any circumstances"
2) after 4 more weeks of fighting and getting the terms not only cut in half but also getting the terms to CSN cut by 75%, we felt that LoSS, Legacy, and RnR should be allowed out of this war and swallowed our pride.
3) 40k was too high solely because it went to CSN only. This set of terms has half of the reps go to Legacy which DT was fine with since they were the alliance DT actually attacked. Now out of the 20k tech, only 5k tech actually needs to be paid. the rest can be paid using cash conversion. so in reality, the terms are 5k tech to CSN, and $450 million to both CSN and Legacy. so, the actual tech amount is a mere 1/8th of the 40k tech that Typo keeps throwing around.

so yes, his questions were answered not only by myself but by others. not only that but had he used some sort of common sense and read the terms, he would have realized #3 all on his own (the part about the break down of the 20k tech). considering he kept saying 20k tech, it is obvious he was already coming in ignorant of what the terms state. i did not even include the fact that Legacy's reps can be paid by any alliance excluding LoSS. which means our allies could pay off Legacy's reps which means that the full reps for DT is 5k tech and $150 million in cash. now, if Typo is incapable of realizing that 5k tech and $150 million is far, far better than 40k tech and would encourage DT to swallow its pride and morals (in regards to not paying reps to CSN) in order to ensure that we help get LoSS out of war finally (as well as RnR and definitely Legacy who was gracious enough to work with DT to get the 20k tech terms of which 10k went to Legacy) then frankly, he is being either intentionally ignorant or is trying to push some sort of propaganda against DT. either way he looks like a fool while doing so.
[/quote]

Nope, I got that perfectly, I already knew the answer because I'm smarter than you. I just wanted to get one of you to say it.

Your moral stand and indignation in the first thread were nothing more than PR positions to take. You had no objections to paying other than numbers, but saying so won't get you any public support. And now you've admitted it.

I'm happy.

[BastardofGod]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299385664' post='2654098']
I'm smarter than you.
[/quote]

We are all doomed.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299385664' post='2654098']
Nope, I got that perfectly, I already knew the answer because I'm smarter than you. I just wanted to get one of you to say it.

Your moral stand and indignation in the first thread were nothing more than PR positions to take. You had no objections to paying other than numbers, but saying so won't get you any public support. And now you've admitted it.

I'm happy.
[/quote]

if you were smarter then you would realize that you are wrong. our moral stand and indignation were real. its just like most normal people, our priorities do usually change. I have not admitted to any such nonsense that you spouted in this post and again, that only goes to make you look foolish. but hey, please by all means believe you are smarter than me if that helps you sleep at night. all your posts have proven otherwise since others have stated similar things in this thread already.

if we wanted PR, we would have stayed at war and waited for white peace.... it appears that PR was never an issue with us more so than ensuring the truth got out about what CSN was doing. That thread would most likely never have gone up if not for Penkala's blog where he spouted his usual half-truths, lies, obfuscations, and what not.

if we wanted public support we also would have invited our allies to join the war. instead, we kept the war limited as we felt that peace should have been had by then, why escalate it and keep the war going for any longer? so when the reps were made much, much more reasonable, we swallowed our pride and chose peace to finally end the war that should have ended 4 weeks prior.

so please stop trying to spout your crap. it is clearly nothing more than a smear attempt against DT because CSN looks like !@#$ for taking reps regardless of the amount. you look like nothing more than some stooge who is drooling all over himself in any attempt to come after DT. it is blatantly obvious to anyone with half an IQ point and you continue to look ridiculous in your attempts to spin this to what you think it is. you can be happy looking like the village idiot all you want, but remember, you look like the village idiot grinning broadly like that. you should have accepted your defeat long ago instead of continuously spouting out the same questions that were answered. my answer is not different than any other answer that was given to you and since you think it somehow is, it only goes to show how less intelligent than me you truly are.

[General Ozujsko]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299385664' post='2654098']
Nope, I got that perfectly, I already knew the answer because I'm smarter than you. I just wanted to get one of you to say it.

Your moral stand and indignation in the first thread were nothing more than PR positions to take. You had no objections to paying other than numbers, but saying so won't get you any public support. And now you've admitted it.

I'm happy.
[/quote]

Haha. Grasping at straws, buddy.

We made it clear we were going to resist against absurd terms. We finally got a deal that was a bit more manageable and acceptable. We no longer wanted to drag LOSS through more war so we took the deal.

I see that "rational self-interest" is not a common concept with you.

Penkala and Jocabia were just silly...but you're a rare breed.

[hizzy]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299385664' post='2654098']
Nope, I got that perfectly, I already knew the answer because I'm smarter than you.
[/quote]

For somebody so smart, I'm curious how you've managed to avoid swallowing your tongue yet.

If you think DT would have lost public support purely over numbers, then your naivety and determination to see CSN as anything but the !@#$%bags that they really are is rivaled only by your cunning, you sly dog, you.