CSN/DT/Legacy/LoSS/R&R Peace Agreement

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Finch' timestamp='1299014497' post='2648504']
You still did not answer my question. You sure like to paint them a certain way but I wonder what you would do in the same situation if it was VE and you were incharge.
[/quote]

I honestly don't know, and its a significant enough decision that I could not say how I'd react if faced with it, decisions like that depend on so much. There are a hundred and one other factors that would contribute, I think its completely silly to expect a solid answer from anybody who hasn't been there.

What I can tell you is that when I was in government I literally thought about everything I was doing differently. I'm retired now so I pretty much just vent as I feel like, I can do that because I'm only speaking for me. When I was gov I spoke for more than me so I thought about what I was saying differently. The same applies. I can make a decision that only affects me easily enough, but when my decisions speak for a whole alliance? That's an entirely different proposition.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299014641' post='2648514']
Reparations are simply compensations paid by a defeated alliance to a victorious one, for a variety of reasons, as part of a peace settlement. It doesn't really matter who attacked who or who was in the right, that's not the meaning of the word.
[/quote]

Which brings up the question, in Planet Bob terms, who collected the first reparations at the alliance level and why?

FYI: Everything I've read on the subject, from a legalistic to an international diplomacy perspective, presupposes that there is an aggrieved party, usually the victim of an attack or injustice, wishing to be made "whole". To the degree that reparations "in the real world" have been demanded and collected as part of a peace treaty, they have been largely deemed failures.

[drugsup]

I have an image which basically summarizes this thread for me

[img]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/drugsup/LOSS%20Imp/CSNREPS.gif[/img]

[Scorponok]

[quote name='Drugsup' timestamp='1299016712' post='2648579']
I have an image which basically summarizes this thread for me

[img]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/drugsup/LOSS%20Imp/CSNREPS.gif[/img]
[/quote]

LOL, epic.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1298970402' post='2647897']
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3200/2369377499_93b05bfcdc.jpg?v=0[/img]
[/quote]

You should save these for your super important backroom meetings then. No one cares what you had for breakfast.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1298991802' post='2648085']
[color="#0000FF"]A wise man once said that there are those who care about PR and those who are lying. Only a complete idiot doesn't care what the masses think.[/color]
[/quote]

It's worse to only listen to your lackeys and satellites.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1299008671' post='2648381']
I'll agree with Oz on this one; just by looking at the amount of damage DT and CSN did to one another, it was, if anything, a hard Pyrrhic victory... again, if anything. Just by looking at the reparations, one would assume a victory for the rep-receiving party was had, but that is clearly not the case. DT dished out a disproportionate amount of damage compared to CSN (as in much higher) and fun was had. Now it is all over, no more back rooms, etc. etc, so we can move on until the next war. Until then, nothing else is happening.
[/quote]

but what if i want to go backroom with just you SOM?

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1299012394' post='2648448']
23 days ago the person LoSS entered to defend got peace, leaving them (and you by extension) floating around with a front that had no coherent end to it beside whatever CSN wanted.
[/quote]

i would say that TIO did not leave LoSS behind. The situation is far more complicated than that. LoSS could have easily left alongside TIO and thus TIO would not have "left" any ally behind. Instead, CSN went greedy and LoSS refused to leave DT behind.

but yes, please try and make TIO look bad for things far beyond their control. No one would have even remotely thought that CSN would pull the terms they pulled prior to when they did it. i am fairly certain most who have ever had any dealings with CSN before this had their jaws break on the floor. it simply turned out that very few in CSN are remotely similar to the CSN of yesteryear.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299012539' post='2648453']
Very nice, but you still didn't answer any of my questions, you went with an insult and another platitude that didn't actually address anything.

Let me boil it down for you.

Given the motives you just stated in that quoted bit, why was 40k too high a price to get your friends out of the war but this offer not? We heard lots about your nebulous principle in the other thread, what about them made 40k too much, but these terms fine? What changed from not wanting to pay CSN to accepting these terms?
[/quote]

i would have to say that the 40k by only our 2k+ tech guys was completely unreasonable. The later offers were unreasonable considering CSN would be the sole beneficiary of all tech. These are a bit more palatable due to the fact that Legacy is receiving half of the tech and only 5k is coming from DT directly. Then there is the fact that we technically can pay 15k of that tech using cash instead of tech.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299014360' post='2648501']
Except for the pesky fact you keep leaving out that he was there to arrange peace for DT, regardless of what happened to LoSS. He wasn't there with his treaty partner asking for joint peace. Which is precisely the accusation: That DT was there negotiating for themselves, not for LoSS. Good game, but you lose.[/quote]

please point to the line where DT states that they are going to peace out without LoSS? please do. i have read those logs many, many times and never once saw that line in there anywhere. In fact, LoSS is barely mentioned and if you read, Liz even states that discussions for peace would have to occur at a later time due to CSN needing to discuss amongst their gov. so, by that very statement right there, that discussion cannot even be called a peace talk. it was the step prior to actual peace talks, ya know the step where you notify your opponent you wish to discuss peace.

i know it is a hard concept for you to understand but a single line that only states a dissatisfaction with LoSS does not mean we are throwing LoSS under the bus. Neither is there any talks of leaving without LoSS, only talks of who DT will be representing in the peace talks (and again, i point out that DT nor LoSS are like CSN and have foreign people represent them. mediating sure, that is normal but not actively representing them unless of course the other party refuses to talk to DT). In which case, DT at that point would be representing DT and FHU. i know, shocker right.

also, what MaGneT said about LoSS having a standing offer of white peace.

[Haflinger]

Shouldn't that be "the GOD fight"? Heh.

[drugsup]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1299017612' post='2648604']
Shouldn't that be "the GOD fight"? Heh.
[/quote]

I bow to your superiour puns.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299007474' post='2648360']
We're talking about Karma here? Of course you lost infrastructure, that's what happens in wars. I myself am down about 7500 infrastructure, but I certainly wouldn't say I've been heavily damaged. Infrastructure is real cheap up to 5k. Valhalla fought for 2-3 rounds and took damage accordingly. An alliance of your size shouldn't have to depend on outside aid for rebuilding so I fail to see how those terms were damaging.

Considering what part you had played in the crimes of the Continuum, and what others in that war received, your treatment was most definitely a wrist slap and nothing more.
[/quote]
Hmmm maybe we should call this thread the education of Lord Brendan.

1st we fought PC Umbrella Kronos and for a small scale RIA as well. I dont remember too much more than that during Karma. I dont even remember who we declared on to start it off unless it was PC. Now no offense to this front but thats one hell of a triple team and we all fought all the way down. IIRC we fought minimum 4 rounds against what is now considered the most elite fighting AA in the game Umbrella along with Kronos and PC, who are both good fighters. We took a ton of damage hats off to those guys for hammering us.
Most of our members were above tech selling range and we had maybe 10-12 members to sell tech. Since our terms would not allow us to purchase outside tech for 90 days iirc we had a grand total of 60 slots to disperse among 400 slots for tech. Infra is the easy thing to rebuild tech is what does the damage and is not so easy to get whith the above restrictions, so to say we recovered easily is far from the truth. It would have been easier to pay tech off and be allowed outside sources than to do what we did. Like i said we didnt !@#$%* and the terms were more than we could have hoped for at the time and that was not lost on us. So please if your going to spew crap at least make it close to the truth.

[Finch]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299016538' post='2648574']
I honestly don't know, and its a significant enough decision that I could not say how I'd react if faced with it, decisions like that depend on so much. There are a hundred and one other factors that would contribute, I think its completely silly to expect a solid answer from anybody who hasn't been there.

What I can tell you is that when I was in government I literally thought about everything I was doing differently. I'm retired now so I pretty much just vent as I feel like, I can do that because I'm only speaking for me. When I was gov I spoke for more than me so I thought about what I was saying differently. The same applies. I can make a decision that only affects me easily enough, but when my decisions speak for a whole alliance? That's an entirely different proposition.
[/quote]

exactly there were tons of other factors you and I were not privy to in this case so don't be so harsh on them when you do not know the full story

[Karl I]

Good to see that this has finally come to an end!

Congrats on Peace Everyone

o/

[Xerxes II]

Yo CSN, I'm really happy for you, I'mma let you finish but DT & LoSS had one of the best war efforts of all time. One of the best war efforts of all time!

A shame we can't allow DT & LoSS to keep showing off those fine fighting skills they have T_T

Edited March 1, 2011 by Xerxes II

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Finch' timestamp='1299019315' post='2648651']
exactly there were tons of other factors you and I were not privy to in this case so don't be so harsh on them when you do not know the full story
[/quote]

Well, which is why I asked them. >_>

[D34th]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1299012011' post='2648438']
I still don't understand why the hell anyone but Polar is paying reps in this war. I'm quite disappointed.
[/quote]

Why the hell would we pay reparations for receiving screenshots that we didn't even ask for and who were produced by the leader of VE with the specific objective to send it to us? What damage this screenshots caused? VE was the one who chose war over diplomacy.

[Goldie]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1299021372' post='2648708']
Why the hell would we pay reparations for receiving screenshots that we didn't even ask for and who were produced by the leader of VE with the specific objective to send it to us? What damage this screenshots caused? VE was the one who chose war over diplomacy.
[/quote]

Seeing as the reason for going to war isn't actually based on receiving any screenshots, you certainly won't be asked to pay any reparations for the receipt of them.

[D34th]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1299021528' post='2648713']
Seeing as the reason for going to war isn't actually based on receiving any screenshots, you certainly won't be asked to pay any reparations for the receipt of them.
[/quote]

It isn't?

So VE declared on us just because we are amazing?

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='CzarBomba' timestamp='1299012886' post='2648461']
Glad to see this front has finally come to a close.

o/ DT for making sure those reps will do little in the way of rebuilding their foes.
o/ LoSS for sticking it out until the end.
o/ Sarm for being rational throughout this war.
o/ SOM for reminding me of Sarm. (Also, he seems like good people)
o/ Angry Birds cake!
o/ Peace!
[/quote]

Oh thanks, appreciate the compliments

[SirWilliam]

I came in here to express outrage, but outrage I cannot muster. Neither of you liked what the other was bringing to the table so you both stuck to your guns. Ultimately you both made concessions though to see an agreeable peace, which, having previously been in the same position, I can imagine was a bit difficult. But peace you have, so congrats to you both.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='CzarBomba' timestamp='1299012886' post='2648461']
Glad to see this front has finally come to a close.

o/ DT for making sure those reps will do little in the way of rebuilding their foes.
o/ LoSS for sticking it out until the end.
o/ Sarm for being rational throughout this war.
o/ SOM for reminding me of Sarm. (Also, he seems like good people)
o/ Angry Birds cake!
o/ Peace!
[/quote]

Oh God... I have just been compared to Sarm. By all that is holy kill me now.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1299021710' post='2648728']
Oh God... I have just been compared to Sarm. By all that is holy kill me now.
[/quote]
The light is shining on you today my friend. One day you will be like Sarm...one day...

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1299022100' post='2648737']
The light is shining on you today my friend. One day you will be like Sarm...one day...
[/quote]

Does that day come with a complementary knife, vial of cyanide, and box of arsenic chip cereal for me to feast upon?

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1299022336' post='2648750']
Does that day come with a complementary knife, vial of cyanide, and box of arsenic chip cereal for me to feast upon?
[/quote]
No, but it comes with an ego and a willingness to tell people off

and of course immortality and perfection and all that jazz.

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1298999427' post='2648241']
You [i]are[/i] the leader of [i]Valhalla[/i], right? The alliance that committed some of the worst atrocities of the Continuum era and got off with the lightest of wrist slaps? Remember that time you took 60k tech from 30 nations? We're taking 5k tech from 20 nations.

Any tips on how to avoid "whats coming to us" for a long time? We could use the help from a master.
[/quote]

OK, on this, you need to be REALLY specific.

Which 30 man alliance did we request 60k from and when did we do it?

Anyways, I'm glad to see DT out of this war, and just as glad to see CSN keeping up their incredible PR efforts in an all new thread.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Lord Levistus

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299013927' post='2648488']
I won't deny this was extortion (that's what [i]all[/i] reparations are, you are giving up money/tech at gunpoint). We feel that the extortion was justified given the circumstances, but obviously many disagree.

I brought up Valhalla's past because it puts the lie to the idea that alliances always reap what they sow (in any case as I've pointed out this is an anomaly in the Commonwealth's history, unlike Valhalla's), not to compare to what we have done here. Many alliances have committed atrocities that dwarf these reparations, and even though they have never been punished for them, today they are not particularly reviled. That is why I do not put any weight in the various threats and ill-wishes here.
[/quote]

Just 2 quick points in regards to the above.

1. I and others in Valhalla(Government and members alike) have put in uncountable hours of work repairing relationships, making relationships where there were none before, and re-evaluating the relationships we had. This was by no means easy, and in fact if I could have just paid some reps or penalty to clear our slate I would've in a heartbeat. That wasnt an option. It took real work and effort, including manning up and admitting to not only others but ourselves where we went wrong. After more then a year are still doing that work today...

2. I dont think CSN has it in you to put in the same effort for such results. TBH most of the .gov efforts I have seen from CSN of late would confirm this suspicion but only time will tell.

Edited March 1, 2011 by chefjoe

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1299018412' post='2648630']
1st we fought PC Umbrella Kronos and for a small scale RIA as well. I dont remember too much more than that during Karma. I dont even remember who we declared on to start it off unless it was PC. Now no offense to this front but thats one hell of a triple team and we all fought all the way down. IIRC we fought minimum 4 rounds against what is now considered the most elite fighting AA in the game Umbrella along with Kronos and PC, who are both good fighters. We took a ton of damage hats off to those guys for hammering us.
[/quote]

You declared war on PC on [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55078"]April 23rd[/url] and surrendered on [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=57309"]May 10th[/url], for a total of 18 days or two and a half rounds. My estimate was spot on. I was going to debate about how much damage you realistically took but we're getting too far sidetracked here. Valhalla was just the example that came most readily to mind, you yourself pointed out Sparta's record as another. The planet is crawling with alliances that have done terrible things and not suffered for it, I think we're going to be alright with a single blemish on an otherwise spotless record of giving lenient terms.

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1299022782' post='2648760']
OK, on this, you need to be REALLY specific.

Which 30 man alliance did we request 60k from and when did we do it?
[/quote]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=34051