Joint Poison Clan - iFOK Announcement

[Alterego]

wrong thread

Edited December 23, 2010 by Alterego

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1293062547' post='2550632']
NEW did not enter this on behalf of any other alliance. They were declared on. Unless you count being the recipient of an aggressive attack as being part of a "chain" with a single link, you are incorrect. There is no chain. All you cite is what has, for the previous years of the history of this planet, been known as a [i]casus belli[/i]. I'd probably agree that it is a valid [i]casus belli[/i]. But it is not a chain by any stretch of the imagination, and PC and iFOK are, at least according to treaty, obligated to defend NEW, regardless of how little they may want to harm distant parts of their elite club.
[/quote]

Obviously you're not one to let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

The Dark Fist AA was under the protection of INT, Fark, and TPE. The initial act of aggression by NEW, launched without provocation (or even justification), was therefore a direct assault upon the sovereignty of those three alliances, who reacted defensively.

NEW fired the first shots in this war when it invaded [s]Poland[/s] Dark Fist. They are the clear aggressor, as even their own allies have conceded.

-Craig

[greenacres]

[quote name='Anu Drake' timestamp='1293131058' post='2551799']
With respect, you are incorrect. His resignation post is the only thing I'm going off of and he was pretty clear. Both issues may be at play, certainly, but there is no doubt as to his personal grudge.

Ask ChickenZilla about 3 year plus grudges. They exist.
[/quote]

I see the man himself posted and refuted your claims.

[Anu Drake]

[quote name='ALFERALFER' timestamp='1293132080' post='2551814']
Also, If you really were in WTF you would know enough not to post on the big boards.
[/quote]

Maybe if you posted more than 15 times in your 559 days that you spent in WTF you would understand that I'm not breaking alliance policy and you would certainly know I really am a member. I am not claiming to speak for the alliance and was attempting to distance WTF from your personal actions. And your post is in complete contradiction to your resignation statement. I obviously won't shame you as a fellow greenlighter by repeating what you posted, but at least be honest.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1293127502' post='2551743']
Looking forward to it.

Just wonder, what's your issue with individual nations honoring an agreement/friendship and fighting? It's the exact same thing INT, TPE, and FARK are doing by attacking NEW. Thing is, we're doing it on the losing side and not on the one with a 4:1 advantage.
[/quote]

Im just curious about when peace talks come, will you consider yourselves as part of the group in those talks and thus bound by whatever peace terms are given, or do you feel FARK should deal individualy with you all like rogue's or do you feel that you should be able to slip out of the war as you slipped into it?

Edited December 24, 2010 by chefjoe

[fant0m]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1293218495' post='2552777']
Im just curious about when peace talks come, will you consider yourselves as part of the group in those talks and thus bound by whatever peace terms are given, or do you feel FARK should deal individualy with you all like rogue's or do you feel that you should be able to slip out of the war as you slipped into it?
[/quote]

We are honourary members of NEW. We are NEW.

I still find it amusing people call us "rogues" and even "bandwagoners" considering it is us who is fighting a heavily defensive war for our friends. Not to mention there are nations doing the exact same thing as us on Fark's AA, only they are joining the winning side. I guess it's alright for them though.

Edited December 24, 2010 by fant0m

[Havamil]

[quote name='Louis Balfour' timestamp='1292828120' post='2546108']
But who wouldn't hit Valhalla if the chance presented itself?
[/quote]
I love that statement but.

I'm not in Vals gov. but find what you "rogues" are doing quite honorable, imo one of the aggressors have no legitimate reason for entering thus the gates should be open. I wish you all the best of luck.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Havamil' timestamp='1293219787' post='2552787']
I love that statement but.

I'm not in Vals gov. but find what you "rogues" are doing quite honorable, imo one of the aggressors have no legitimate reason for entering thus the gates should be open. I wish you all the best of luck.
[/quote]
That's correct. One of one aggressor had no legitimate reason for attacking a protected AA.

[Bob Janova]

As long as those nations have resigned properly and joined NEW, there is no reason to consider them 'rogues'.

[quote]NEW did not enter this on behalf of any other alliance. They were declared on. Unless you count being the recipient of an aggressive attack as being part of a "chain" with a single link, you are incorrect.[/quote]
I explained this already. NEW opened an aggressive war by attacking protected nations, those protection documents act as a treaty and therefore Int and TPE are unambiguously entering through a defensive treaty obligation. Fark is a little more of a grey area as they hadn't had time to post such a statement so their protection is implicit from the fact that they were an MDP partner before the disbandment.

As I said in the post you quoted, the chaining clause in the treaty (NEW being dragged in through a treaty) doesn't apply, but the implicit chaining convention (them being 'attacked' due to treaty obligations on the part of the other side) do.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1293218495' post='2552777']
Im just curious about when peace talks come, will you consider yourselves as part of the group in those talks and thus bound by whatever peace terms are given, or do you feel FARK should deal individualy with you all like rogue's or do you feel that you should be able to slip out of the war as you slipped into it?
[/quote]

NEW have welcomed us into their ranks on their forum and IRC private channel. As far as I am concerned I expect to be treated like any other NEW member especially considering FARK are now using the same tactics to recruit nations into their ranks to combat us.

EDIT: Thanks for pointing out mah silly mistake pooks.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Zoomzoomzoom

[TwistedRebelDB47]

[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1293124940' post='2551707']
I am hopeful in the end all the rogues assisting new will get what is due to them.
[/quote]

[quote name='Link Gaetz' timestamp='1293068471' post='2550796']
I have to say, I admire those PCers who hopped over to NEW, despite PC's official pronouncement that they'd sit out. But, they are obviously the exception in PC, not the rule.[/quote]

Rogues? How convenient to name us rogues for coming to the defense of those we call friends and allies.

NEW may or may not have acted wrongly with their raid – that isn’t a topic I have the authority to deal justice on. In my opinion, however, right or wrong, a treaty is meant to be honored first, decisions made on how the ally acted leading up to and through the situation are meant for when it’s all said and done. In this case, our former alliances knew that despite this in mind, entering the war would be endangering more allies than staying put and assisting afterwards. Is it a decision I like? No – but it is a decision I understand.

What makes the bonds between NEW and Poison Clan are the personal connections that can date back years. That’s why we’ve left our homes to join a “NEW” one – because while our nations may evaporate in time and alliances dissolve, the friendships we have forged will remain intact. Nations like my own, Zoom, Tim, and more have been long time friends with the founders of NEW, and those personal alliances are stronger than any other forces we can face.

So call us rogues, if you are scared, but don’t expect for either party, NEW or friends, to part ways before each has fair and respectable terms.

Poison Clan or former Poison Clan nations involved: 13.

Edited December 24, 2010 by TwistedRebelDB47

[Ashoka the Great]

If NoR were ever to find itself involved in this, we'd likely be on the Fark & Co. side. (Although I can connect the dots and have us on the NEW side as well.)

Regardless, much respect to Zoom, Twisted and the 11 (as of right now) other PC members who are standing with their brothers in NEW.

I tip my hat to you gentlemen.

[pooksland]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1293222233' post='2552823']
NEW have welcomed us into their ranks on their forum and IRC private channel. As far as I am concerned I expect to be treated like any other FARK member especially considering FARK are now using the same tactics to recruit nations into their ranks to combat us.
[/quote]

Zoom I think you mean "treated like any other NEW* member"

But you are wrong here, what we have done by joining NEW, to defend our friends, is very different then the tactic FARK is trying to utilize. We decided to help our friends against a curb stomp, we all decided to join NEW on our own accords without anyone in NEW even approaching us. FARK, instead, is actively recruiting nations to join their ranks because they ended up biting off too much then they can chew. Since PC and iFOK are preventing FARK from bringing in other alliances to bail out their upper tier, they have resorted to begging anyone/everyone they think will send nations over to save their 100K+ NS nations.

[Sephiroth]

Calling those who are helping NEW by joining the alliance during war rogues is silly, this happens every war when an alliance decides not to assist a treaty partner. These nations might not be able to change the decision PC went with, but I think those helping out regardless are doing the honorable thing and shouldn't be treated differently from anyone else fighting.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Methrage

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='pooksland' timestamp='1293224520' post='2552869']
Zoom I think you mean "treated like any other NEW* member"

But you are wrong here, what we have done by joining NEW, to defend our friends, is very different then the tactic FARK is trying to utilize. We decided to help our friends against a curb stomp, we all decided to join NEW on our own accords without anyone in NEW even approaching us. FARK, instead, is actively recruiting nations to join their ranks because they ended up biting off too much then they can chew. Since PC and iFOK are preventing FARK from bringing in other alliances to bail out their upper tier, they have resorted to begging anyone/everyone they think will send nations over to save their 100K+ NS nations.
[/quote]

honestly, i tip my hat to those joining NEW for friendship as that is what true friendship is. i think i have been clear that i don't think NEW was ever in the right with their raid on DF but those joining NEW have shown true friendship and loyalty.

On the flip side, FARK really did not bite off more than it could chew. Those joining were probably not accounted for during the backroom deal set up between FARK/Int/TPE and PC/iFOK. thus, them getting people to join their ranks is only fair. they may have NEW by NS technically but if NEW is outnumbering them in upper NS, then i don't see the issue. you joined expecting to take damage but to complain that FARK is using a similar tactic by getting nations to join them as you and others did with NEW is hypocritical.

[Havamil]

The only reason fark jumped in was to change the odds to begin with. Now they cant handle the repercussions? and have to go recruiting? Weak

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Havamil' timestamp='1293226919' post='2552925']
The only reason fark jumped in was to change the odds to begin with. Now they cant handle the repercussions? and have to go recruiting? Weak
[/quote]
Because Fark really expected PC to take advantage of their kindness right? This is underhanded manipulation of an agreement in good faith, and these rogues will be beaten to a pulp for it.

[Shovel]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1293227965' post='2552939']
Because Fark really expected PC to take advantage of their kindness right? This is underhanded manipulation of an agreement in good faith, and these rogues will be beaten to a pulp for it.
[/quote]

Yes, it is very underhand to honour agreements and attack an opposing force 4...5x larger. Also what are you on about? PC have not gone back on any agreements they made.

[pooksland]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1293226660' post='2552920']
honestly, i tip my hat to those joining NEW for friendship as that is what true friendship is. i think i have been clear that i don't think NEW was ever in the right with their raid on DF but those joining NEW have shown true friendship and loyalty.

On the flip side, FARK really did not bite off more than it could chew. Those joining were probably not accounted for during the backroom deal set up between FARK/Int/TPE and PC/iFOK. thus, them getting people to join their ranks is only fair. they may have NEW by NS technically but if NEW is outnumbering them in upper NS, then i don't see the issue. you joined expecting to take damage but to complain that FARK is using a similar tactic by getting nations to join them as you and others did with NEW is hypocritical.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone is complaining that FARK is using that tactic, I just wanted to point the difference. That we came because we wanted to and did so without being asked, while FARK is actively recruiting and asking nations/alliances to help them out. Although if we were complaining about them using that tactic, I would agree with you that it is hypothetical. Now it is up to PC/iFOK to decide if what FARK is doing is allowing outsiders to bandwagon in or not by openly inviting them to join in the fight by ghosting their AA (and before you say it, those of us who joined NEW are now NEW members and registered on their forums and everything.)

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1293227965' post='2552939']
Because Fark really expected PC to take advantage of their kindness right? This is underhanded manipulation of an agreement in good faith, and these rogues will be beaten to a pulp for it.
[/quote]

Take advantage of their kindness? Fark should be thankful for PC's kindness that they decided to let them get away with hitting NEW in the first place. But I love how Fark and now friends are through around the "rogue" word to classify us who are defending our friends. They did not think so before, but now that it has became too much for Fark to handle we have been deemed "rogues" to justify them to seek out allies to "attack the rogues". Classy.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1293227965' post='2552939']
Because Fark really expected PC to take advantage of their kindness right? This is underhanded manipulation of an agreement in good faith, and these rogues will be beaten to a pulp for it.
[/quote]

Last I checked we're not under any orders from PC govt. We left PC because we disagreed with their agreement not to help NEW.

P.S. We're not rogues. You can keep saying it, but it isn't going to make it true.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Zoomzoomzoom

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1293227965' post='2552939']
Because Fark really expected PC to take advantage of their kindness right? This is underhanded manipulation of an agreement in good faith, and these rogues will be beaten to a pulp for it.
[/quote]
We are not "rogues" we are people who were friends with NEW and who decided join them because they needed help. Every nation who joined NEW is in it on their own accord and decided for themselves if they wanted to join NEW. There is no conspiracy here or plan from any PB alliance to bring nations over to NEW.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='pooksland' timestamp='1293228580' post='2552947']
I don't think anyone is complaining that FARK is using that tactic, I just wanted to point the difference. That we came because we wanted to and did so without being asked, while FARK is actively recruiting and asking nations/alliances to help them out. Although if we were complaining about them using that tactic, I would agree with you that it is hypothetical. Now it is up to PC/iFOK to decide if what FARK is doing is allowing outsiders to bandwagon in or not by openly inviting them to join in the fight by ghosting their AA (and before you say it, those of us who joined NEW are now NEW members and registered on their forums and everything.)
[/quote]

sorry, i was not trying to state or imply anyone was complaining, just offering my view that was counter to the view most had offered up to that point.

i kind of doubt that PC/iFOK will state that anyone joining FARK is considered a bandwagoner since FARK may consider them to be full members for this war, which means should PC/iFOK hit them, they would be hitting FARK which basically means that the entire deal that was brokered would end which would result in the hitting of allies' allies.

[mushi]

I came over to help NEW because of my friendship towards them. FARK's own words said we are rogues and we are considered part of NEW, but once they noticed we were owning their nations, they are asking for help.

[Batallion]

[quote name='mushi' timestamp='1293229081' post='2552955']
I came over to help NEW because of my friendship towards them. FARK's own words said we are rogues and we are considered part of NEW, but once they noticed we were owning their nations, they are asking for help.
[/quote]

Creole answered the call apparently. This should be interesting

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='fant0m' timestamp='1293219581' post='2552784']
We are honourary members of NEW. We are NEW.

I still find it amusing people call us "rogues" and even "bandwagoners" considering it is us who is fighting a heavily defensive war for our friends.
[/quote]
Totally agree with this, volunteers joining up in a war is not exactly a new thing In CN...it has happened on countless occasions. I for one do not consider any such volunteers rogues and so on, they are individuals following their instincts and putting their pixels on the line for what they believe in...

[center]Volunteers of the NEW, FARK and anyone else: I Salute you.[/center]