Joint Poison Clan - iFOK Announcement

[Xavii]

The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.

[Vespassianus]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293272945' post='2553523']
The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.
[/quote]

What did we destroy in the process? It's an honest question, no offense. Also beleive or not i'm a friend of NEW and i'm willing to loose some pixels for, that's it.

[Xavii]

[quote name='Vespassianus' timestamp='1293273142' post='2553525']
What did we destroy in the process? It's an honest question, no offense. Also beleive or not i'm a friend of NEW and i'm willing to loose some pixels for, that's it.
[/quote]
I won't air everything here, but I will let you know in PM.

[mushi]

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1293270581' post='2553504']
If Fark, TPE and Int can activate a MDoAP with a disbanded alliance, i dont see why DT cannot activate an ODP with them
[/quote]
You sir are confused, let mebreak it down.

1)DF disbands
2)Int and TPE declare protection (not the best way to do it, but never the less do)
3)NEW raids
4) FARK, InT, TPE hit it. Here FARK really doesnt have a right for war in my opinion as it never declared protection on DF.
5)Myworld comes out with a secret DT protection agreement between him and SCM.

Now we are going to see alliances come out of the blue and can protection randomly? Myworld might want to share of your other secret treaties? Myworld if you strongly believe that DT has protection over DF please attack NEW, their is plenty of slots available. You did give your word to SCM to protect DF, follow your word?

[Vespassianus]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293273563' post='2553528']
I won't air everything here, but I will let you know in PM.
[/quote]

I'm on irc now.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293256682' post='2553352']
Am I to understand that those nations who leave their alliance and fight for NEW, have actually applied and are NEW members, therefore never to return to their alliance of origin?
[/quote]
Never to return?

lol.

NEW isn't the GGA. Its members are free to leave when they want to.

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293256682' post='2553352']
And if not, if they are permitted to return to their respective allainces then I take it that their government endorses their actions, thus technically having assisted NEW in the war. And then their is the question of reps. If NEW incurs reps then will those nations be paying reps also or attempt to rejoin their alliances to avoid reps?
[/quote]
So an alliance government is to be held responsible for all the previous actions of its members in other alliances that they were a member of?

Come ON.

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1293251673' post='2553295']
There is absolutely no reason why the volunteers should be treated any differently from any other NEW member. Alliance applications don't close down in wartime, after all. Unless we want to prosecute everybody who's joined an alliance during a war as criminals?
[/quote]
[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1293252163' post='2553304']
Pretty damn ridiculous bagging on people who leave their alliance to fight for another one when the feel it is the right thing to do. It has been going on since the first Great War for Admins sake.
[/quote]
[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1293225035' post='2552886']
Calling those who are helping NEW by joining the alliance during war rogues is silly, this happens every war when an alliance decides not to assist a treaty partner. These nations might not be able to change the decision PC went with, but I think those helping out regardless are doing the honorable thing and shouldn't be treated differently from anyone else fighting.
[/quote]
I think it's safe to say when you have SC, MM, Methrage and me agreeing on something, that you've got an unusual situation.

I'd also like to say that I see absolutely nothing wrong with people joining Fark to help them fight in the war. If you want to support Fark's cause, then it makes sense. Just like how people joined IRON to help them fight Grämlins, and how people joined MK during the War of the Coalition.

Heck Thom98 joined Invicta during the Karma War. He wasn't a rogue either.

[raasaa]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293272945' post='2553523']
The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.
[/quote]
^^ QFT

You guys put your faith in certain people and make them leaders/government for your alliance. When these same people make a decision, taking into account what is best for the alliance in that situation, you guys disregard it and join the battle anyways....making them look bad. If you dont stand by the decisions made by your alliances government, then who will :S

[quote name='mushi' timestamp='1293273671' post='2553530']
You sir are confused, let mebreak it down.

1)DF disbands
2)Int and TPE declare protection (not the best way to do it, but never the less do)
3)NEW raids
4) FARK, InT, TPE hit it. Here FARK really doesnt have a right for war in my opinion as it never declared protection on DF.
5)Myworld comes out with a secret DT protection agreement between him and SCM.

Now we are going to see alliances come out of the blue and can protection randomly? Myworld might want to share of your other secret treaties? Myworld if you strongly believe that DT has protection over DF please attack NEW, their is plenty of slots available. You did give your word to SCM to protect DF, follow your word?
[/quote]
thanks for clearing that up. Well, Fark going in justifies any NOIR/ODP partner from defending NEW

Plenty of slots available...with three alliances dogpiling NEW ??

[mushi]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293272945' post='2553523']
The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.
[/quote]
Cross reference people who joined the fight from those in TPF in the old days, those who have their names on treaties with NEW and those who raid with NEW. You wont have much left.

[mushi]

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1293275357' post='2553537']


thanks for clearing that up. Well, Fark going in justifies any NOIR/ODP partner from defending NEW

Plenty of slots available...with three alliances dogpiling NEW ??
[/quote]
Well DT might consider ODP>MADP but normally MDoAP>ODP. Also like I said, DT is free to enter against NEW. There is plenty of slots, just check.

[SirDog]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293275126' post='2553535']
Never to return?

lol.

NEW isn't the GGA. Its members are free to leave when they want to.
[/quote]

I probably didn't articulate my point to well Half, I meant do those nations who left to NEW have any intention of returning to their alliance of origin.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293275126' post='2553535']
So an alliance government is to be held responsible for all the previous actions of its members in other alliances that they were a member of?

Come ON.
[/quote]

I do not know if you understood what I meant on this Half but if a government has nations defecting to another alliance to fight (contrary to their own alliance position) and then they permit those nations to return, then they are, in effect, endorsing the actions of those nations.


And on a side note - doesn't the NEW charter expressly require members to be fluent in Indonesian?

[raasaa]

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293276397' post='2553541']
And on a side note - doesn't the NEW charter expressly require members to be fluent in Indonesian?
[/quote]
This is all an evil plot by the Indonesian government to help spread their language, now all those who joined will be forced to learn indonesian language and culture

[quote]II. Memberships

[1] To apply for a membership in the Nusantara Elite Warriors, one has to be: a. [b]Fluent in Indonesian language and familiar with its culture[/b]. b. Not a member of any other alliance. c. Is not in state of war against any foreign country. [/quote]

I am guessing that some last minute amendments were added into the NEW charter...the same way that some last minute details were added into the bandwagoning agreement...

[mushi]

A charter is an alliances own, and it decides on it. Charters are usually set of guidelines which an alliance is operated. Is CN going to tell NEW how to use its charter and follow it? Much like NpO told \m/ during BiPolar, its a slippery slope if you want to go down that path.

[Locke]

[quote name='mushi' timestamp='1293278212' post='2553543']
A charter is an alliances own, and it decides on it. Charters are usually set of guidelines which an alliance is operated. Is CN going to tell NEW how to use its charter and follow it? Much like NpO told \m/ during BiPolar, its a slippery slope if you want to go down that path.
[/quote]
Well, it's not exactly a vague clause. Unless NEW wants to completely disregard its charter, I'd [i]love[/i] to see how they can interpret that one to, well, not exist.

[mushi]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293278928' post='2553545']
Well, it's not exactly a vague clause. Unless NEW wants to completely disregard its charter, I'd [i]love[/i] to see how they can interpret that one to, well, not exist.
[/quote]
Charters can be amended and NEW did amend their charter or why else would they give me membership?

[greenacres]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293272945' post='2553523']
The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.
[/quote]

Those words you spoke, are the words of a coward who does not know the meaning of friendship.

[Locke]

[quote name='mushi' timestamp='1293279127' post='2553546']
Charters can be amended and NEW did amend their charter or why else would they give me membership?
[/quote]
So, in other words, NEW chose to disregard their charter as soon as it got in the way; okay. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/IMG]

[Australian Warlord]

[quote name='sigelopisan' timestamp='1293244797' post='2553217']
FARK shouldnt try to "desperately" bring in anyone with high NS to help their high tier.
You guys are more than capable to know this situation.
It didnt fair for them, to asked them to fight those Jacky Chans. Its a murderer. You shoudnt do this to your friends.
[/quote]
That is so funny, considering that NEW has brought in top tier players from other alliances, after it was the alliance that initiated this attempted raid.
Seriously, do stop being hypocritical in your statements.
Btw : The only reason why I'm even bothering to look at this thread is because NEW took two of WTF's members. I know what my own response would be, but that's not for me to say as I'm not responsible for my alliance's policies.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Australian Warlord

[Haflinger]

First, my name is Haflinger. The common short form of that is Haf, not Half.

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293276397' post='2553541']
I probably didn't articulate my point to well Half, I meant do those nations who left to NEW have any intention of returning to their alliance of origin.
[/quote]
So what if they do?

Seriously. People do this in alliance wars all the time. People joined GPA during the Woodstock Massacre because they wanted to oppose the Continuum alliances, and then returned to their original alliances.

The time to complain about this is long past. If you thought the practice of recruiting large nations in wartime to help fight was horrible, then you should have spoken up when MK used it against NPO in the War of the Coalition.

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293276397' post='2553541']
I do not know if you understood what I meant on this Half but if a government has nations defecting to another alliance to fight (contrary to their own alliance position) and then they permit those nations to return, then they are, in effect, endorsing the actions of those nations.
[/quote]
No, they're not.

Endorsing the actions of those nations would mean [b]JOINING THE WAR.[/b]

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293276397' post='2553541']
And on a side note - doesn't the NEW charter expressly require members to be fluent in Indonesian?
[/quote]
It is common for the normal membership requirements of an alliance to be waived in wartime, especially in an alliance that is the target of superior forces.

[fant0m]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1293272945' post='2553523']
The people who left Umb, PC and so on did it for their own selfish desires. I used to call many of them friends but I can't condone this behavior.

They have show total disregard for the alliances they used to call "home" and simply do what they want and not caring what they destroy in the process. Sorry guys, claim you did this to "help out friends in need" all you want, but you all know you were bored and wanted a chance at war.
[/quote]

Thank you for telling me the inner workings of my own mind but you are wrong. I'm sorry Umbrella is unhappy everyone doesn't just do what you want them to but please don't try to turn us into the bad guys. I can personally guarantee you that I am doing this because PC's friends and brothers were attacked and while I did not agree with their behaviour leading up to the declarations I will not allow my brothers to fight alone.

[twodivine]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1293271320' post='2553512']
OK lets take time to inspect DT's war history with treaties involved:

[list]
[*]DT MADP with PC.
[*]NpO attacks \m/
[*]PC Attacks NpO
[/list]

Where were you DT, you didnt activate your MADP treaty to hit NpO?

But you're willing to defend DF from NEW? ODP?

What is it ?

The fact that it's a curbstomp that you chose to participate in this?

The double standards here whiff of foulness.
[/quote]
1. Because the war started with NpO wasn't by PC. Our treaty was non-chaining. So we had the option to stay out until you were declared and you were not.
2. We're willing to defend DF because we put our word to SCM that we would while his members found a new home.
3. I started participating in this before it was or could become a curbstomp.
4. No Double standards, just 2 completely different situations.

[citizenkane]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1293290898' post='2553588']
1. Because the war started with NpO wasn't by PC. Our treaty was non-chaining. So we had the option to stay out until you were declared and you were not.
2. We're willing to defend DF because we put our word to SCM that we would while his members found a new home.
3. I started participating in this before it was or could become a curbstomp.
4. No Double standards, just 2 completely different situations.
[/quote]

1) We asked for help. We told you 1000000000 times how grub really wanted to attack PC but couldnt. It's common knowledge what he did, apparently to everyone but you.
2) Of course, this has nothing to do with the fact that you and SCM worked against PC in a previous coalition
3) You arent participating. I see no DoW from DT. AS far as I can see you're just full of hot air
4) Admit it. You see PC on the NEW side of things. Even though we've made our position perfectly clear, you're still saying we are liars.

[SirDog]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293287986' post='2553578']
First, my name is Haflinger. The common short form of that is Haf, not Half.[/quote]
Just a typo. My apologies if you were offended.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293287986' post='2553578']
So what if they do?

Seriously. People do this in alliance wars all the time. People joined GPA during the Woodstock Massacre because they wanted to oppose the Continuum alliances, and then returned to their original alliances.

The time to complain about this is long past. If you thought the practice of recruiting large nations in wartime to help fight was horrible, then you should have spoken up when MK used it against NPO in the War of the Coalition.
[/quote]
So if an act has historically been a non-issue it is now too late to discuss it and we are just to be become apathetic about it? Wrong.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293287986' post='2553578']
No, they're not.

Endorsing the actions of those nations would mean [b]JOINING THE WAR.[/b]
[/quote]
So your view is if nations leave an alliance en-masse to fight a war for another alliance, and then are accepted back by that alliance immediately after that war...then that is NOT the government endorsing their actions? To an extent I disagree, however it is not black and white by any means.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293287986' post='2553578']
It is common for the normal membership requirements of an alliance to be waived in wartime, especially in an alliance that is the target of superior forces.
[/quote]
My initial thought was "how convenient" but I do understand your point there.

[twodivine]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1293292168' post='2553597']
1) We asked for help. We told you 1000000000 times how grub really wanted to attack PC but couldnt. It's common knowledge what he did, apparently to everyone but you.
2) Of course, this has nothing to do with the fact that you and SCM worked against PC in a previous coalition
3) You arent participating. I see no DoW from DT. AS far as I can see you're just full of hot air
4) Admit it. You see PC on the NEW side of things. Even though we've made our position perfectly clear, you're still saying we are liars.
[/quote]
1. I'm not going down that path with you again. We've stated our point of view on it long ago and that is that.
2. If you'd check NOIR you'd find us stating we'd have their back there as well. And previous coalitions or not has nothing to do with it.
3. We're not involved at this point yet due to the screwed up deal and setup in place by your own alliance that has totally screwed up with your view of a planned setup war.
4. I see PC skirting their own terms to support NEW with your members going to NEW. I know most of them very well to know that while they say they are helping friends and left to join NEW. They did what they did because they are war hungry and will be seeking their old AA once it's over and you'll give them their positions right back because no one else will be able to fill the positions they were in.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293292530' post='2553601']
Just a typo. My apologies if you were offended.
[/quote]
Nah, it's a common mistake. I'm used to correcting it.

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293292530' post='2553601']
So if an act has historically been a non-issue it is now too late to discuss it and we are just to be become apathetic about it? Wrong.
[/quote]
Well, it's just that one of your allies was a prominent recipient of said wartime volunteers on several occasions, including during the most recent global war. Specifically, the New Polar Order. Which leads me to believe that you bringing up this point is really a reflection of what you would like to see happen in this one particular war, rather than you espousing an honest viewpoint.

[quote name='SirDog' timestamp='1293292530' post='2553601']
So your view is if nations leave an alliance en-masse to fight a war for another alliance, and then are accepted back by that alliance immediately after that war...then that is NOT the government endorsing their actions? To an extent I disagree, however it is not black and white by any means.
[/quote]
Yes, that's what I said.

[sigelopisan]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293282330' post='2553551']
So, in other words, NEW chose to disregard their charter as soon as it got in the way; okay. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PYU3Q.gif[/IMG]
[/quote]


Right now, we are busy throwing nuke. WAR comes first.

Last time I recall, everybody still speaking/post Indonesian language in our forum.
So, whats the issue here?? /me scratch head