Revisited: An Even War Avoided

[Sandwich Controversy]

It wouldn't have been all that even. Once you look deeper than raw NS and into military preparedness and upper tiers, it falls apart. Your post clearly betrays how underinformed you are.

[New Frontier]

With Random in charge of Polar I think we will be seeing a much closer relationship between the Orders, with a possible reinstatement of the Ordinance of Order itself.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1289407774' post='2509405']
With Random in charge of Polar I think we will be seeing a much closer relationship between the Orders, with a possible reinstatement of the Ordinance of Order itself.
[/quote]
Indeed. There is no bigger fan of Pacifica than Random.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1289406626' post='2509394']
He's my uranium dealer.
[/quote]


The pieces are set... now time will play out this plot!

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='LordSlade' timestamp='1289405113' post='2509373']
LoSS has all the love in the world for GOONS, I thought everyone knew that. I kid, I kid. As far as LoSS goes, I don't think we have any outstanding hatred for anyone really, though I think its the other way around for some alliances.
[/quote]

I do have to wonder, now that Krunk is out of NSO, does that mean that Nemesis and LoSS still hate us with a passion? Or is that now directed at MCXA?

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1289406479' post='2509392']
Excellent piece! Although I disagree with you on the fact that the war would have been even (CnG and PB probably would have helped MK and Aztec probably would have neutraled out using Colossus, GLoF, and NV's ties to TFD), I do think that you are right that this war would have unified the non PB/CnG parts more than they'd been since Karma.

And why would this have happened? Easy, because the NSO weren't in the wrong here. I would wager that most of the Iron Curtain alliances' other allies are not thrilled at being tied to the NSO through this bloc. NSO has been very reckless in their FA and many of their second degree allied alliances expect to be dragged into a war by NSO's stupidity. I know that my personal alliance, TFD fits into this category and I believe a few of FEAR's allies do as well. I don't know Hydra well enough to opine on them.

This situation was not NSO's fault. Sure, RV was irresponsible but demanding reps for a cancelled trade was an action so outrageous that it probably would have gotten everyone in the situation detailed above over the hump and willingly onto NSO's team.

So maybe MK did NSO a favor. They showed everyone that they were a worse alternative. Next time, NSO's second degree allies may not be as willing to stay out.
[/quote]

So basically, TFD is like Ruiz, who dislikes the recklessness of us, Dan Stark, but truly loves us in the end?:

[img]http://www.fancast.com/blogs/files/2010/05/bradley-whitford-good-guys.jpg[/img]

aint that a fitting comparison?

[caligula]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1289406479' post='2509392']
Excellent piece! Although I disagree with you on the fact that the war would have been even (CnG and PB probably would have helped MK and Aztec probably would have neutraled out using Colossus, GLoF, and NV's ties to TFD), I do think that you are right that this war would have unified the non PB/CnG parts more than they'd been since Karma.
[/quote]

I actually had said in the OP that this purposive war would not have been even, and insinuate that this may have been a greater reason why said war did not occur.


I then state that this particular event may have sown the seeds for a future even war whereas a majority of SF and CnG alliances re-align themselves as to not be highly involved in an aggressive war comparable to the one that may have arisen out of this incident had NSO not payed up.

The final part is just speculation on whether or not the Mushroom Kingdom will ever be in as good of a position as it was again on November 9th.


While this is (admitted in the OP itself,) based on many assumptions, most if not all made in the OP are at least plausible if not true with a rational approach.

To the whole, thanks for your opinions.

I agree Bansky that I may have overthought the entirety of the issue (Although I am sure this has been debated in private forums of most active alliances in the game,) but I disagree with the belief this event does not have long-term ramifications. At the very least it gave those recently disenchanted with the perceived* actions of MK in the past several months unto November 9th a reason to maneuver or start re-thinking an MK+PB alignment, and the very least a chance for Aztec/Neo Bleu + Pacifica to think about starting up their own Karma printing presses with the global shift.

As for the Pacifican / Polar alliance, I know quite well the history between RI, Polar and Pacifica, and thus the word "temporary reconcilliation," may be substituted for "united action borne of necessity rather than choice."

*(I am leaving it up to interperetation, as it's a matter of perspective and context.)

Edit: wow, structure.

Edited November 10, 2010 by caligula

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1289384386' post='2509233']


I'm actually secretly hoping another alliance can catch a MK member in a similar aid scam / broken trade circle deal type situation just to see how a reversed reps claim would be treated! How awkward that will be!!!
[/quote]

You're on the same color they are

[LordSlade]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1289408533' post='2509413']
I do have to wonder, now that Krunk is out of NSO, does that mean that Nemesis and LoSS still hate us with a passion? Or is that now directed at MCXA?
[/quote]

I try not to think about Krunk to often. And I guess now that he is gone, then yeah, it is one less thing to hate you over. But until you cower down to the one true Star Wars alliance, IAA, then you will never be all that high on my likability list

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1289384767' post='2509237']
There is the fundamental assumption that it could have gone to war. I don't really see the NSO being up for it and even if they were there wouldn't be much incentive for them to get their allies involved. So the odds for a war that didn't have much chance of happening aren't really that important. The PR issue you are highlighting may hold more weight, though. I don't think one incident should really demolish an alliance's reputation permanently either as everyone has botched things in the past so people who were favorable to MK before this won't necessarily turn against them. What exactly has PB done that there needs to be an answer for anyway other than exist?
[/quote]

PB as a whole has done nothing since its inception. Individual alliances within PB still hold their own history, which includes several wrongdoings on their part.

The fact is, MK botched this twice. Once by extorting in the first place instead of offering a reasonable amount (i.e. 3m, 3m/50t, 6m even) and then in the second by not only admitting that they did wrong but then sticking with doing the wrong thing under threat of war. So, they not only turned an extortion amount from being partially RV's fault for not negotiating (though that is still under debate) but turned it into full blown extortion under threat of war. So they took their one chance at making it right and threw it away for an even bigger pile of !@#$. and why? so that they would not be seen as "bowing before the CN public".

big whoop considering Sirius is being browbeat by the OWF for doing the right thing. if MK had any balls, they would have done the right thing regardless of whether a handful of fools thinks they made you bow.

@the OP- you do realize that NV has a treaty with VE. Which means Aztec will be less likely to attack PB and vice versa.

[lebubu]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289407910' post='2509406']
Indeed. There is no bigger fan of Pacifica than Random.
[/quote]

Was about to ask if he was joking around or not.

edit: there's a word for that...

Edited November 10, 2010 by lebubu

[Alterego]

MK & Co are trying to provoke people into a war. Any reaction will result in a unified SF/PB/C&G group with the usual hangers on crushing a minority opposition. They are pushing harder and harder because the end of terms for some people is coming and they want to beat down any potential opposition before tht happens. They pushed and pushed before NPOs terms were up and in the end had polar start the war then switch sides once the larger alliances committed. If no one bites they will just attack someone for no reason or do another Polar style switcharoo or maybe help set up an opposition then step back and leak the logs as happened recently.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289411184' post='2509441']
Was about to ask if he was joking around or not.

edit: there's a word for that...
[/quote]
Yeah, for an alliance that jokes around as much as you guys, you really need to learn to recognize sarcasm, judging by the discussion I saw about this in #mushroom earlier.

[uaciaut]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289411184' post='2509441']
Was about to ask if he was joking around or not.

edit: there's a word for that...
[/quote]


He's joking.

edit: damn, beat to it.

Edited November 10, 2010 by uaciaut

[lebubu]

I know RI isn't NPO's biggest fan but thanks, I think.

[Jay Z]

[quote name='amad123' timestamp='1289394180' post='2509282']
I always thought GOONS would be the alliance that would start the next major war. However after the NSO/MK incident my thinking is that MK will be behind the next war. It is clear that they are becoming the alliance most likely to be trolled. [/quote]

I would say (even in an OOC sense) that they are most likely to do the trolling.

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1289404244' post='2509366']
The "enemy" you are referring to is non-existent and only comes together in the loosest of terms, if that, anymore. Also, PC/MK hatred? News to me! I know MK got frustrated with PC for messing up staggers in the Karma War but how do you know they hate each other? From where? You could just be talking out of your ass, you probably are too!

If you're going to make statements at least try and make it somewhat factual. Where the hell do you get this information from?
[/quote]

I don't even know why I bother proving you wrong again and again.

EDIT: Logs <snip>
Those that had to see them did:
[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289412815' post='2509461']
MVP is correct, there is no hate between PC and MK. Funny logs though.
[/quote]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1289410318' post='2509433']
@the OP- you do realize that NV has a treaty with VE. Which means Aztec will be less likely to attack PB and vice versa.
[/quote]

Considering this (hypothetical) war would be between MK (who has nothing with VE) and NSO (who has nothing with NV), it would be NVs choice. The OP (I believe) is saying that since MK was in the wrong, NV would align with the NSO-side of the web.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Jay Z

[lebubu]

MVP is correct, there is no hate between PC and MK. Funny logs though.

[im317]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1289410318' post='2509433']@the OP- you do realize that NV has a treaty with VE. Which means Aztec will be less likely to attack PB and vice versa.
[/quote]

that treaty is basically a non chaining treaty that becomes a NAP. reference noCB/WotC and BiPolar(or whatever you want to call that mess)

so all that treaty meant in this situation is that if NV hit someone in PB it would not be VE and vice versa.

[ChairmanHal]

One of the major problems with demanding reparations is that, in the end, we have fewer wars because major players are sidelined while they pay them (I noted that the OP observed that TOP would not have been available for the hypothetical fight due to this). Indeed, since the Karma War the length of time that alliances are sidelined has grown.

If you enjoy war, you should oppose reparations. Unfortunately, the whole "mah reps!" mentality wins out far too often.

[Duncan King]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1289408730' post='2509415']
The final part is just speculation on whether or not the Mushroom Kingdom will ever be in as good of a position as it was again on November 9th.[/quote]
I agree with you about this. I think MK lost their high ground in this.

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1289408533' post='2509413']
So basically, TFD is like Ruiz, who dislikes the recklessness of us, Dan Stark, but truly loves us in the end?:

[img]http://www.fancast.com/blogs/files/2010/05/bradley-whitford-good-guys.jpg[/img]

aint that a fitting comparison? [/quote]
Um, no. Dan Stark is actually competent. I still doubt that NSO is. I think that the other Iron Curtain members are like Ruiz, NSO is like Hodges (who everyone thinks is dumb), and TFD is like Jack and Dan.

Bonus points for liking a great show, though.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1289413263' post='2509471']
One of the major problems with demanding reparations is that, in the end, we have fewer wars because major players are sidelined while they pay them (I noted that the OP observed that TOP would not have been available for the hypothetical fight due to this). Indeed, since the Karma War the length of time that alliances are sidelined has grown.

If you enjoy war, you should oppose reparations. Unfortunately, the whole "mah reps!" mentality wins out far too often.
[/quote]This.

Long term surrender terms make wars less frequent because people are tied up for months on end. The less people have to lose, the more willing they are to go to war. Sure it sucks getting a beatdown but if you know you can start to rebuild immediately without being held in terms, you may be more willing to go to war.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Duncan King

[Jay Z]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289412815' post='2509461']
MVP is correct, there is no hate between PC and MK. Funny logs though.
[/quote]

Funny in the sense that it is of two alliances that your minions put onto their side of the excel document they slaved over? Or funny in the sense that it is representative of your delusional view of the world whose inaccuracy exponentially grows the more inactive your beloved king is? If the latter, I would say hilarious is more appropriate.

[Manis B]

Synergy is the lynchpin to any successful endeavour.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289405567' post='2509377']
As leader of the most irrationally hated alliance in the game, I have surprisingly few hates that extend to entire alliances. I mostly just hate terrible leaders, and prominent terrible posters.
EDIT:
And terrible leaders who are also prominent terrible posters.
[/quote]

As Viceroy of said alliance, I hate everyone and intend on rolling you all.

[Ian Dox]

What is being overlooked, well, maybe not overlooked but not enough weight is being put towards how MK's attitudes, both past and present, are being perceived by those who are uninvolved and would not look kindly upon being dragged into such an idiotic situation.

That same goes for GOONS .

Eventually, the straw that breaks the camel's back falls, and those of us out there have to wonder, really, is it worth it all?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Jay Z' timestamp='1289413911' post='2509482']
Funny in the sense that it is of two alliances that your minions put onto their side of the excel document they slaved over? Or funny in the sense that it is representative of your delusional view of the world whose inaccuracy exponentially grows the more inactive your beloved king is? If the latter, I would say hilarious is more appropriate.
[/quote]
You are totally off base and should really stop. Don was joking, as he is oft to do.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote]
Yeah, for an alliance that jokes around as much as you guys, you really need to learn to recognize sarcasm, judging by the discussion I saw about this in #mushroom earlier.
[/quote]
In all fairness, NPO guys are about as serious as they come. I see far more serious/angry posts from NPO members than sarcastic.

But to address the OP. Any conflict involving NSO won't amount to much, as all their allies always seem to back out and say NSO told them not to defend them. I hardly imagine NSO getting defended even if someone DoW'ed them with the CB: "Just because." I know NPO wouldn't unless they could win. Although maybe the IC/Brown/Purple allies would. It's funny to think FEAR, NATO, Invicta, etc have more balls than the 'legendary' NPO though. 2010 sure isn't 2007-08.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Steve Buscemi