IRON Notice

[AnCapistan]

Way to repay all those alliances who stood by you when you pulled that gigantic $%&@ up a few months ago.

[Tallon]

[quote name='bcndwilson' date='18 July 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1279483200' post='2377674']
This is one of those things where times have changed and IRON must change with them. No longer is the hegemony the power of the world. It was the time for IRON to move into this new world with more flexibility and options.



[/quote]

(OOC Disclaimer: Speaking only from personal opinion as a non-Gov)

Good riddence. I'm ashamed that I fought (however poorly) to defend an alliance whose reason for dumping our treaty seems to be because "the hegemony [is no longer] the power of the world." Thanks a lot.

Have fun with your new path. Hope your new friends have a better shot at being the world power. For their sakes.

[Some-Guy]

I am in this thread representing the Old Guard and IRON massive.

*Fist bump*

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Tallon' date='18 July 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1279484658' post='2377724']
I'm ashamed that I fought (however poorly) to defend an alliance whose reason for dumping our treaty seems to be because "the hegemony [is no longer] the power of the world." Thanks a lot.
[/quote]

Have fun with that reading comprehension.

[Tallon]

[quote name='mythicknight' date='18 July 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1279484723' post='2377726']
Have fun with that reading comprehension.
[/quote]

Oh? What, precisely, did I miss?

[quote name='bcndwilson' date='18 July 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1279483200' post='2377674']
This is one of those things where times have changed and IRON must change with them.[b] No longer is the hegemony the power of the world. It was the time for IRON to move into this new world with more flexibility and options.[/b]
[/quote]

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='mythicknight' date='18 July 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1279484723' post='2377726']
Have fun with that reading comprehension.
[/quote]


Your flimsy reasons may be "hey we can still be friends"... but the facts are the facts, and IRON dumped loyal allies here, and I doubt many of them want to be friends with them after being treated this way.

[heggo]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='18 July 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1279484263' post='2377714']
Perhaps you think we all just stepped off the turnip truck, I dont know. [/quote]
Well, not all of you.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='18 July 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1279484263' post='2377714']
If they are such great friends, these treaties would still exist. You don't tell someone who is your friend, "i'm sorry, but we will be unable to defend you in the future, but we love you." Nobody is buying it. There is a reason for that. The very fact that this "we still love them" ruse is trying to be passed off, is an insult the collective intelligences of those us who will defend those we call FRIEND, without question, from now, until the frienfship dies.
[/quote]
Some of the people IRON cancelled on were in this thread hailing them and their continuing friendship. Anyway, you don't need a treaty to defend your friends. Treaties are mostly just there for arcane treaty web maintenance purposes. Again, need I explain an alliance's Moldavi Doctrine rights or bring up the NSO-STA relationship as an example again?


[quote name='Quinoa Rex' date='18 July 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1279484267' post='2377715']
That's almost totally irrelevant to what I said. The history between IRON and its allies versus NSO and STA is a tenuous comparison at best, and it sounds a lot like you're saying a treaty born of friendship should continue to exist only if it suits your politics. (I emphasize "born of friendship", that's the salient point here.)
[/quote]
Perhaps the comparison is tenuous like you say, perhaps not. At this point you're just speculating about internal relationship dynamics that you have no actual intelligence on, unless you're a spy of course. And I have made no judgements in this thread regarding what an alliance ought to do regarding the balance of their friendship and political treaties. I can only speak for my own alliance in that regard- everyone has to sort out the tough questions on their own, I think.


[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='18 July 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1279484656' post='2377723']
Way to repay all those alliances who stood by you when you pulled that gigantic $%&@ up a few months ago.
[/quote]
Stop repaying yourself!

[Acca Dacca]

Alrighty. Good luck to the 12 or so people involved in this matter.

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' date='18 July 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1279484905' post='2377729']
Your flimsy reasons may be "hey we can still be friends"... but the facts are the facts, and IRON dumped loyal allies here, and I doubt many of them want to be friends with them after being treated this way.
[/quote]

I can't speak for the relationship between IRON and NATO. IRON has canceled on them, and presumably NATO knows why (hint: this thread has none of it). If they can remain friends, kudos. If NATO wants to guilt trip IRON all day, well ok.

[quote name='heggo' date='18 July 2010 - 04:29 PM' timestamp='1279484937' post='2377731']
Perhaps the comparison is tenuous like you say, perhaps not. At this point you're just speculating about internal relationship dynamics that you have no actual intelligence on, unless you're a spy of course. And I have made no judgements in this thread regarding what an alliance ought to do regarding the balance of their friendship and political treaties. I can only speak for my own alliance in that regard- everyone has to sort out the tough questions on their own, I think.
[/quote]

And this.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='heggo' date='18 July 2010 - 04:29 PM' timestamp='1279484937' post='2377731']



Some of the people IRON cancelled on were in this thread hailing them and their continuing friendship. Anyway, you don't need a treaty to defend your friends. Treaties are mostly just there for arcane treaty web maintenance purposes. Again, need I explain an alliance's Moldavi Doctrine rights or bring up the NSO-STA relationship as an example again?

[/quote]

The hails are more of an indication of maintaining decorum. You are correct, you dont need treaties to defend your friends. You also dont need to cancel treaties with great friends to change your FA direction. See, that dance works 2 ways, of course, you already knew it did, its just that the traffic coming on the other way on that street did not support your position. To be frank, the ONLY reason for these cancellations are to be able to change a direction without having to be BOUND to protect these wonderful terrific friends that you hold oh so much love for. Give me a break.

[Cataduanes]

That is quite a clean up you have done there IRON, best of luck I suppose.

[quote name='Believland' date='18 July 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1279484254' post='2377713']
Worked well for ODN.
[/quote]
At times it has, but given your rather poor grasp of CN history at times its hardly surprising to see you try that angle Believland

[juslen]

[quote name='joracy' date='18 July 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1279482314' post='2377650']
By...uhhh, canceling a bunch of treaties? You've reduced your treaty count, which is cool I guess, but a lot of people are sitting around scratching our heads on what this actually accomplished, and how this is creating a new path. This isn't one of the those cases where you're going to get bashed either way because people dislike you, you're going to get bashed either way because you fixed nothing, and playing it off as some giant change in policy.

I also find all the "we are still friends!" hilarious, when, pretty clearly, you aren't. Theres a time and place for that line, and it's in those few legitimate situations where that happens. Trying to spin a situation where thats not the case as being like that reeks of incompetence. You can probably stop trying to convince NATO et al that you still love them in public, and you don't mean to insult them and they were great and loyal allies. By the looks of things, they are reading you loud and clear. They just aren't getting the same message.
[/quote]

I know you are smart Joracy, you see the benefits to this. You just don't agree with the benefits because they involve canceling treaties with alliances that are in absolutely no way moving in the direction IRON wishes to head. You can criticize them for the direction they are heading, you can criticize them for canceling on alliance that supported them during countless wars, and you can even criticize them based on the whole "lets still be friends" talk.

But you know very well that IRON is trying to pull themselves out of the rut that has had them in the cross hairs in nearly every single war over the last 2-3 years. Some of those situations they put themselves in by being allied with NPO back in the curb stomping days. They made a lot of enemies, they still have a lot of enemies. The only way they can change that is by pissing off the right people instead of the wrong people.

I don't believe for one second that IRON was happy about these treaty cancellations. If they didn't cancel these treaties they probably figured they would would be on the receiving end of a major beating if certain CnG alliances and even a few SF alliances decided to vent some of their frustrations from the past.

Perhaps this is just one big assumption that will be shot down fairly quickly. But IRON does have a MDP treaty with R&R.. R&R belongs to both SF and LEO. That right there is one key.. perhaps they wish to bring themselves closer to SF or LEO.

And maybe when the next war hits, R&R can finally back up IRON or IRON can back up R&R for once. Our relationship has always been limited due to the mass entangled treaty web mess. This is IRON's attempt to straighten things out and head in a new direction. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about this, but I can say that if they think its best for them, then they are making the right choice.

Some of these treaties have been in affect for years. The individual connections may have been strong, but I don't see how they would benefit if their treaty partners are going in a different direction. Its the nature of treaties on Planet Bob.. I'm surprised many of these treaties lasted this long. I would have thought they would have been altered or canceled one by one over the span of a year or less. Looks like they just decided to let them all go at once.

Does this mean that individual treaties with some of these alliances can't return in the future? Of course not. Will they? Who knows. But maybe some of the alliances they canceled on need to start thinking about the direction they are heading as well.

Well that is my two cents from a personal perspective. Hope you enjoyed it

[Lusitan]

[quote name='flak attack' date='18 July 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1279483265' post='2377677']
It's been quite obvious as of late that Duckroll is moving to take their immediate allies and form a separate power sphere from the other ex-Heg alliances. I would have thought they would try to bring NATO and TFD with them, but I assume they realized that even with all their faults, NATO and TFD do at least have an element of loyalty. Could end up putting NSO in a bad position in the future though.
[/quote]

That wouldn't make sense, TFD has little to no contact with most Duckroll - and tbh we never had - except with TORN with whom we inherited an ODP from Zenith.

In fact, outside PnL Train we only hold 3 binding treaties: NATO, NV and CIA.

[Laserwolf]

Interesting development. Good luck on your new endeavor.

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='18 July 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1279483337' post='2377681']
Can we please place the word 'Hegemony' in a jar and bury it in the backyard...under a few feet of concrete beneath the new in ground pool?
[/quote]

I second the motion.

[heggo]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='18 July 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1279485322' post='2377739']
The hails are more of an indication of maintaining decorum. [/quote]
Baseless speculation. If it's the only thing that fits the narrative you're trying to convince the world exists, feel free to keep saying that though.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='18 July 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1279485322' post='2377739']
You are correct, you dont need treaties to defend your friends. You also dont need to cancel treaties with great friends to change your FA direction.
[/quote]
Maybe, maybe not. It's a little too early to be certain, isn't it? Or do you know something about IRON's internal situation that I don't?

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='18 July 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1279485322' post='2377739']
See, that dance works 2 ways, of course, you already knew it did, its just that the traffic coming on the other way on that street did not support your position. [/quote]
I'm waste deep in analogy right now, and rather than sort if out, I'll raise you an allegation that my dance works with 4 beats and that the traffic coming the other way was English, and therefore on the other side of the street.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='18 July 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1279485322' post='2377739']
To be frank, the ONLY reason for these cancellations are to be able to change a direction without having to be BOUND to protect these wonderful terrific friends that you hold oh so much love for. Give me a break.
[/quote]
I'll refer you to juslen. Edit: But to clarify, only to the first part of his post. Not necessarily to the speculative part.

Edited July 18, 2010 by heggo

[Believland]

[quote name='Cataduanes' date='18 July 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1279485598' post='2377740']
At times it has, but given your rather poor grasp of CN history at times its hardly surprising to see you try that angle Believland
[/quote]

I honestly don't think you even know what's going on anymore.

Anyway, good luck IRON.

[Shayne Rivai]

While this reaction from Planet Bob is unsurprising, I still marvel as to the degrees and angles that people twisted and turned this announcement. I wish all parties well wishes, as saying goodbye is never easy and especially not easy for me.

IRON -- I, myself personally, and all of TORN understand the hardship that such a decision brought upon your shoulders. We support you and are by your side always.

o/ IRON

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='heggo' date='18 July 2010 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1279481573' post='2377628']
What, someone tell you you were supposed to be running a different line in this topic? Anyway, try not to shatter the whole of your glass house while throwing those accusations.
[/quote]

You've made an hilariously incorrect assumption here, heggo. Can you guess what it is? Not that I blame you, some beep-holes should be less lazy about their forum decorations.

--

Good luck with this, IRON. I'm not sure why so many whiners have to go bawwwing so hard whenever someone makes the most remotely interesting move around here. The last thing we need is everyone sitting around in a circle singing Kumbaya for all eternity.

[D34th]

Is impossible to please some people around here, if you sign a treaty with someone "in the other side" they bash you, if you cancel a treaties with the other side" they mock you.

Also is funny to see some people who switch sides themselves and did a lot of "let me suck you" political moves trying to talk about IRON move.

CN is always a entertaining place.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Believland' date='18 July 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1279485801' post='2377748']
I honestly don't think you even know what's going on anymore.
[/quote]
heh if that keeps you warm at night then you hold onto that thought

[Omniscient1]

Getting back to your roots I see? It's a successful strategy. Good luck IRON.

[heggo]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='18 July 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1279486760' post='2377765']
You've made an hilariously incorrect assumption here, heggo. Can you guess what it is? Not that I blame you, some beep-holes should be less lazy about their forum decorations.
[/quote]
*Checks back to that page in the thread.

Oh. Whoops!

*Slinks away.

Edited July 18, 2010 by heggo

[Sande]

Thank you, planet Bob for bringing my day a lot of joy and... well, facepalms. It is the best sort of entertainment CN could ever bring. Hell, we don't even need GGA for this. UPN and IRON can easily take over. And maybe Legion and Valhalla too. Nice!

Good luck in the future. You will need it

[Kochers]

[quote name='wickedj' date='18 July 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1279482824' post='2377663']
While this is a shakeup it only gets you away from NPO a little bit what with NSO being in IC. What i find interesting here is, is Duckroll trying to start a third power sphere ala Citadel had before the last war
[/quote]
I don't know if I would call it a third power wheel. More a seperation of ex-heg into different parts. Whether those parts become their own power wheels or gravitate to a different group/power wheel remains to be seen.

[quote name='Hogosha' date='18 July 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1279482835' post='2377664']
Yes, it is a two way street. However, "Thanks for defending us, we're going to cancel on you now so we won't have to defend you if war comes" only drives in one direction.
[/quote]
Completely agree.

[quote name='flak attack' date='18 July 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1279483265' post='2377677']
It's been quite obvious as of late that Duckroll is moving to take their immediate allies and form a separate power sphere from the other ex-Heg alliances. I would have thought they would try to bring NATO and TFD with them, but I assume they realized that even with all their faults, NATO and TFD do at least have an element of loyalty. Could end up putting NSO in a bad position in the future though.
[/quote]
Both NATO and TFD are in different blocs; I don't think Duckroll even thought of taking them along.

[quote name='heggo' date='18 July 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1279483827' post='2377697']
And Admin forbid you have friends without treaties. I'll acknowledge that my Moldavi Doctrine, and the NSO's relationship with STA, might make me look at things differently than you, though.
[/quote]
By cancelling the treaties, they hurt their friends. If that was the intent, they sure screwed up communicating it.

[quote name='Believland' date='18 July 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1279484254' post='2377713']
Worked well for ODN. Maybe IRON is taking a lesson from them?
[/quote]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='18 July 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1279484656' post='2377723']
Way to repay all those alliances who stood by you when you pulled that gigantic $%&@ up a few months ago.
[/quote]
My thoughts as well.