Citadel Announcement

[Kindom of Goon]

Question, if I may. I will also apologize ahead of time if it has been asked but oh well;

The OP states one of the reasons for this expulsion is OG's ideals not being in sync with the rest of Citadel's, along with a question of OG'd priorities.

Now, I actually can't name a single person who is a member of OG except for Reyne, and apparently a week ago she joined Argent. This is mainly due to her being the front(wo)man and the public face of OG, but I think it's hard to say that most of OG's direction in the last little while wasn't due, in part, to her decisions and preferences.

So now, after she leaves, you guys expel OG?

This makes almost as much sense as declaring war on an alliance for the "crimes" of someone who's not in said alliance.

The process to remove OG from Citadel started well before just a week ago, and when Reyne left we didn't all of a sudden become best buds with OG again, that damage had already been done. The relationship between Citadel and OG (thats right, OG NOT just Reyne) had already broken down.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Kindom of Goon

[hizzy]

This is my personal opinion:

There's no denying that Reyne was in control of the alliance. However, OG very specifically told us that they were a democratic alliance who just voted "yes" on whatever Reyne told them to do. This is a liability in many ways to both OG and the Citadel. At the time of this expulsion/removal, I do not have any level of trust in their decision making abilities. Of course this can change, especially if I see more member interaction on the Citadel boards. The members are being held responsible for repeatedly and blindly supporting the government policies that brought this about.

I'm also of the opinion that Reyne and co. left OG because they knew this was coming. There were rumblings before it happened, like anything in CN. I think she didn't want to go down with the ship and left. I think she also hoped that her leaving would stall or stop the expulsion process, which is silly because it doesn't address the problems Citadel has with the rest of OG.

I hope that helps answer your question. Please keep in mind I'm not out there to hurt anyone's feelings as I am a hippie and hurting people's feelings makes me feel bad. Feel free to hurt my feelings though, I don't mind.

I appreciate your reply.

I didn't quite want to say that Reyne controlled the alliance, because quite frankly I'm well aware of my own ignorance when it comes to OG/Citadel's internal workings. However, I am not in the least bit surprised.

It seems to me though that everyone's shooting everyone else in the foot here. Citadel is giving up a great chance to really help out a friend, but instead they sent them out into the cold while the ship-jumpers get some nice hot cocoa. Maybe OG did have their faults in agreeing with everything Reyne said, but let's not beat around the bush; the only reason they did so was because YOU (that is, OG's allies and friends) did nothing but defend her choices, and circle the wagons anytime someone attacked her (which quite frankly I find insulting and pathetic, but that's a whole other issue). So of course they will go along with what she says when everyone sees that she's their ticket to a great ride.

Then when you guys finally get enough of her !@#$, she decides to jump ship, and instead of helping out your former brothers get back on a straight path (one which does not include the biggest reason they're getting kicked in the first place), you go ahead and dump them anyways.

IMHO, bad call. $%&@ PR, you just screwed a friend over.

[Empress Theodora]

Of course this can change, especially if I see more member interaction on the Citadel boards.

Hard to see interaction on a board where every memnber of OG was stripped of all acces to any part of the Citadel forums including the outer public ares We can't even log in to check opur pm's and possibly requst an embassy, or jsut hang out in the spam area to chat. So how are we to have interation when the door has been completly barred to us?

[threefingeredguy]

Hard to see interaction on a board where every memnber of OG was stripped of all acces to any part of the Citadel forums including the outer public ares We can't even log in to check opur pm's and possibly requst an embassy, or jsut hang out in the spam area to chat. So how are we to have interation when the door has been completly barred to us?

After I made that post I immediately went to the cit boards to request that at the very least an embassy be set up for OG. When I got there I saw that there already is one. I'm not sure about how the masking is going since I'm only Sen level, but I think it's getting set up.

[Monster]

Hard to see interaction on a board where every memnber of OG was stripped of all acces to any part of the Citadel forums including the outer public ares We can't even log in to check opur pm's and possibly requst an embassy, or jsut hang out in the spam area to chat. So how are we to have interation when the door has been completly barred to us?

Did you ever think to contact someone about this? There really is no reason for you to have less access than normal visitors. Was the possibility of it being a mistake that could be fixed thought of?

Edited June 25, 2009 by Antoine Roquentin

[Kindom of Goon]

Then when you guys finally get enough of her !@#$, she decides to jump ship, and instead of helping out your former brothers get back on a straight path (one which does not include the biggest reason they're getting kicked in the first place), you go ahead and dump them anyways.

IMHO, bad call. $%&@ PR, you just screwed a friend over.

Its only bad PR if folks like you try and twist it into such with phrases like 'you just screwed a friend over'.

If they were friends of each Citadel member and if everyone trusted them they'd still be in Citadel, but that's clearly not the case. Friendship and trust come before the treaty not after. And you don't need to be in a bloc with someone in order to help them.

[hizzy]

Its only bad PR if folks like you try and twist it into such with phrases like 'you just screwed a friend over'.

If they were friends of each Citadel member and if everyone trusted them they'd still be in Citadel, but that's clearly not the case. Friendship and trust come before the treaty not after. And you don't need to be in a bloc with someone in order to help them.

So, you didn't screw a friend over because they're not your friend? Ok, I'll give you that. In fact, I can agree with it; one can not betray a relationship which does not exist.

Considering it takes a minimum of 67% voting in favour of expulsion in order for the motion to pass, I would say OG has, at MOST, 1 friend in Citadel (5 people voting leaves room for only 1 to vote against).

Incidentally, OG holds independent treaties with 3 members of Citadel (2 MDPs, 1 SISTER, including your own MDP with them). So please, tell me more about this "friendship before the treaty".

edit: and ya, you don't need to be in a bloc to help someone, that's true. But when you actually kick someone out of a bloc, it doesn't exactly set the best atmosphere to promote help and mutual cooperation. I speak from experience here.

Edited June 25, 2009 by hizzy

[eejack]

I just wanted to thank all the well wishers and folks who have been positive and supportive during a tumultuous time. While I would have preferred to remain in Citadel the discussion leading up to the vote was basically open and honest and I never felt we were denied an opportunity to represent our viewpoint and defend our actions. As tough as it was for us in OG, I am certain it was just as tough for many of the members of Citadel and it is the frank and honest airing of ideas that makes Citadel the special place that it is. I wish them all the very best.

Thanks again for all of the support,

EEjack

[LiquidMercury]

Hizzy ya know I love ya, but I'm going to say that you're a bit off based in all this.

I wish OG the best of luck.

Edited June 25, 2009 by LiquidMercury

[Sileath]

I just wanted to thank all the well wishers and folks who have been positive and supportive during a tumultuous time. While I would have preferred to remain in Citadel the discussion leading up to the vote was basically open and honest and I never felt we were denied an opportunity to represent our viewpoint and defend our actions. As tough as it was for us in OG, I am certain it was just as tough for many of the members of Citadel and it is the frank and honest airing of ideas that makes Citadel the special place that it is. I wish them all the very best.

Thanks again for all of the support,

EEjack

Glad to see OG taking this with class.

[OOC]Mad props for the avatar. International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers [/ooc]

[Joe Kremlin]

Sifting through countless posts over the past two years about how morally superior the Citadel is to us, however, has made me unwilling to let them slip through this little bit of moral hypocrisy scot-free.

I fail to see any hypocrisy (and I guess I missed those posts you're talking about too).

Good luck to OG

Edited June 25, 2009 by Joe Kremlin

[im317]

I wonder what took so long.

before i responded to this i had to read the whole thread to make sure nobody had said this already, that was a pain. now for my response.

Clearly Citadel was moving at TOP speed on this issue.

[hizzy]

Hizzy ya know I love ya, but I'm going to say that you're a bit off based in all this.

Like I said, I'm well aware of my own ignorance when it comes to the internal parts of the Citadel, and in turn I'm sure a couple guesses here and there will be off.

Nonetheless... something feels rather off in this issue. Not to say it's really any of my business... hell, I doubt this will ever affect my course in any significant way... but it certainly makes my ears perk up.

And likewise, much respect to you as well LM, as far as I know you've been a straight-shooter... if you say I'm a bit off-base, then I'm a bit off base... but at the same time it still doesn't quite cover everything.

[Titus Pullo]

Considering it takes a minimum of 67% voting in favour of expulsion in order for the motion to pass, I would say OG has, at MOST, 1 friend in Citadel (5 people voting leaves room for only 1 to vote against).

10 votes, not 6. Each alliance gets two votes, and Old Guard doesn't count during expulsion hearings. That being said, it is then only 67% of the votes cast, 80% of votes being required for quorum.

Thus, at least 6/8 votes had to have been cast in favor of voting OG out.

Other possibilities: 7/8, 8/8, 6/9, 7/9, 8/9, 9/9, 7/10, 8/10, 9/10, 10/10

[enderland]

This is a sad tale of how the efforts of but a few people can cause consequences from which they can simply walk away, leaving others to deal with them.

[Random]

10 votes, not 6. Each alliance gets two votes, and Old Guard doesn't count during expulsion hearings. That being said, it is then only 67% of the votes cast, 80% of votes being required for quorum.

Thus, at least 6/8 votes had to have been cast in favor of voting OG out.

Other possibilities: 7/8, 8/8, 6/9, 7/9, 8/9, 9/9, 7/10, 8/10, 9/10, 10/10

That make absolutely no sense, why would an alliance any alliance vote to expel another alliance with 1 vote and then with the second vote they decide to do the opposite is just..well the picture below will explain better then I could.

Edit : I feel the need to elaborate more on it as it just comes off as ignorant of me to just state something with no evidence as to why it wouldn't make sense. The thing is that Hizzy's point was that at most of the Citadel didn't support the idea of OG sharing their ideals etc. Hizzy then said that OG would have AT MOST 1 friend in Citadel if any of the said alliances voted to not remove OG, you then said that each alliance has 2 votes which wouldn't change anything. I mean if any of those alliances decide to cast 1 vote to each side that would show that the government of the said alliance was indecisive and thus they would be still debating over it and the point of the vote would essentially be non-existent and said alliance would have done better not to vote at all as they're obviously having their own internal struggles if they can't cast the same vote twice. Which would lead to the vote not being fair to the said alliance you would be voting on because if the X alliance that was voting for the removal or not of Y alliance and put 1 to each because they couldn't decide and then later on decided that the Y alliance shouldn't have been removed then your only creating internal strife and more over corruption.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Random

[Drai]

This is a sad tale of how the efforts of but a few people can cause consequences from which they can simply walk away, leaving others to deal with them.

In a way, yes. However it was also mentioned that the general membership of OG continued to knowingly vote those people in. So those who are left to deal with the problem can still be blamed for the position they put themselves in.

[HeinousOne]

Ah now I know what your bomb was. Interesting.

I really did not want to say anything of the sort, I still held back most. Even more interesting is the fact that your comment was the only one in response and it was hardly a denial.

Please be fair, I was really just curious what you were talking about and upset you wouldn't tell me.

Hmm, maybe that is the case but one of your responses did not exactly come of as simply curious.

Sorry, what I took to be veiled threats must have been a sincere attempt to simply inform us that you were close to the point of losing your cool. As for your reputation, please don't hold my post count over me as if I was completely unaware of the happenings of the world or the people who unfortunately inhabit it.

I don't do many veiled threats. I phrase it that way because I cannot remember any but I do not wish to speak in absolutes on a subject I cannot remember back on for sure. Yes, you are correct though about me being pushed to the point of forgetting about respect. Especially when I see Hizzy making some very similiar points as I was making yet the responses towards him are much more amiable.

In the end, I guess I would have to say that hypocrisy is so much fun to see in action that I think I just had an orgasm.

Your welcome.

Hizzy ya know I love ya, but I'm going to say that you're a bit off based in all this.

I wish OG the best of luck.

Yet his words seem to mirror similiar views expressed earlier. Whether he is off base or not matters not as much as the fact that this is how quite a few folks appear to be viewing the situation from the outside.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Hard to see interaction on a board where every memnber of OG was stripped of all acces to any part of the Citadel forums including the outer public ares We can't even log in to check opur pm's and possibly requst an embassy, or jsut hang out in the spam area to chat. So how are we to have interation when the door has been completly barred to us?

You have an embassy on the boards, so if you don't have access to it, someone did something wrong. Just ask whoever can do something about it. (You should know, but since I'm a new member, I don't yet.)

[Sun WuKong]

OG kicked out all three of their triums? This is what would be considered New information. Up until now it seemed as if these tri's left on their own. Otherwise it would seem that the vote of no confidence in OG (thus a vote on the members) still applies to Reyne and the other two.

Just to clarify a couple of points:

1. The Wiki article is woefully out of date. I have not been a triumvir of the Old Guard for at least three months; and when I had stepped down from the position, MrNiice had not been a triumvir for several months. I had in fact, left the Old Guard prior to the outbreak of the 'Karma' war with the intention of quitting the game; I returned to the Old Guard and reactivated when they were attacked by OBR. Once peace was secured and things were settled, I again left the Old Guard - over a month ago.

2. Needless to say, I have not been privy to Citadel workings since I stepped down as triumvir, so I cannot comment on the current events affecting them and the Old Guard. Knowing the participants as I do however, I will state that oft-repeated maxim: "The victors get to write the histories". 'Nuff said.

[Duncan King]

The point is that 99% of all people coming to a thread screaming "I knew it weeks before!" are just liars. They didn't know !@#$. They guessed it and they had a 50/50 chance - either it happened or not. Sometimes it does. Fine for them. Fact is that we STILL are close to the OG membership and I bet you won't see MDP cancellations nor do we hold ill will towards them or will allow that anyone "does bad things" to them - we just don't want to share Citadel any more with them because that trust is at the moment rather broken. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh please, stop trying to pretend that the Citadel is some special entity that transcends the basic norms that govern political entities on this planet. It was not hard at all for informed observers to discern that OG's tenure in Citadel would not last much longer. There were disagreements between you and them before, they were the only one to fight on NPO's side in this war, two of you (I'm including Argent in this) fought one of their few MDoAP partners, and the newest member of Citadel fought for Karma. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this many things on one side can tip the scales and lead to a cancellation. So no, it wasn't idle speculation or a simple guess on 50/50 odds. It was an informed hypothesis based on observations of what was happening and analysis of what had happened before in other blocs. What this cancellation does is show the world that Citadel is no better or worse than any other bloc and is not somehow immune to the dynamics that can pull these entities apart. So stop pretending that you are any different. You can sugar coat it all you want, but at the end of the day, you are not on an ivory tower, you are just like everyone else.

[Dr. Dan]

you are not on an ivory tower, you are just like everyone else.

lol, I find it amazing how much this bothers people. Damn conformists.

[Sephiroth]

I'm sad things got to the point where OG needed to be removed. I do wish OG luck and hope relations can eventually build back up to what they used to be.

I still think it's hilarious that the FCC has a king.

Monarchy with me as King = Best form of government ever.

[Derwood1]

Heinous you live up to your reputation......never mind the man behind the curtain he pretends to know more then he does......

we tried to be as forth-coming as possible but yet....I'll stop there to keep it civil....

[HellAngel]

Oh please, stop trying to pretend that the Citadel is some special entity that transcends the basic norms that govern political entities on this planet. It was not hard at all for informed observers to discern that OG's tenure in Citadel would not last much longer. There were disagreements between you and them before, they were the only one to fight on NPO's side in this war, two of you (I'm including Argent in this) fought one of their few MDoAP partners, and the newest member of Citadel fought for Karma. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this many things on one side can tip the scales and lead to a cancellation. So no, it wasn't idle speculation or a simple guess on 50/50 odds. It was an informed hypothesis based on observations of what was happening and analysis of what had happened before in other blocs. What this cancellation does is show the world that Citadel is no better or worse than any other bloc and is not somehow immune to the dynamics that can pull these entities apart. So stop pretending that you are any different. You can sugar coat it all you want, but at the end of the day, you are not on an ivory tower, you are just like everyone else.

To us, Citadel IS something special. If you dont feel that way, thats ok, but dont judge us because we value our friends.