Citadel Announcement

[Electron Sponge]

I don't really understand all the fuss regarding the OP. OG's aspirations drifted apart from the ideals of the Citadel as a whole and they were voted out of the Citadel. Not really a big deal and TBH, it was bound to happen considering recent history etc.

It all boils down to old grudges that die hard, an extreme dislike in some quarters for the way Citadel does business, and of course the knowledge that obviously Citadel members paint a rosier picture of what goes on behind closed doors than what the reality of the situation actually is. On that last point I'll say that they are by no means alone in doing things like that, most major groups want to present that front of strong unity. I don't fault them for it and I don't think anyone else should either. The rest of what I said in my first line varies from individual to individual and there's no accounting for that.

I agree bkphysics, I personally don't see the big deal either. When the war started and OG was on a different side from the rest of Citadel it was pretty plain that they probably weren't long for the bloc. I remember saying to someone at the time that if they were voted out it wouldn't happen until well after they were out of the war, because that's just how Citadel operates. It also wouldn't be just because they honored their treaties in the proper order.

The side argument about other Citadel alliances accepting certain members of OG is rather silly as well in my estimation. If alliances are going to be judged on accepting people with checkered pasts, there are several I'd think of before I'd look at any Citadel alliance. Also, given that a certain alliance once went around cajoling and threatening other alliances not to accept me due to my past when I first returned openly, I personally find this sort of judgmentality quite distasteful.

[HeinousOne]

Your powers of deduction are astonishing.

Whether you were trying to say accepting leaders, or removing them, your point remains flawed. Please, tell me how argent meddled in OG's internal affairs by accepting a nation that applied to them. I'm pretty sure Argents charter doesn't say that no nation may apply to join if they were once in an alliance that was in Citadel and might get kicked in a week.

You are digging and digging for something sour about this situation, sorry to disappoint you, this is all fresh.

I am not digging for anything, its pretty obvious. It was stated that the membership, which includes all members of OG, was no longer trusted to be in Citadel but that individual alliance ties will remain. That means you do not want them for example to see things on the forum. Well, if they all can freely join any other citadel alliance then all the stated reasons for kicking out OG are basically just cover story. Truth is the name Old Guard is damaged goods and you wanted that out. Obviously if Reyne is allowed to join any of the Citadel alliances that every other OG member for the most part could do the same.

Once again, just a cosmetic PR campaign. I am not saying that is a bad thing and it was probably necessary but this is not how you guys are trying to portray it. The way in which you are trying to cover up the perfectly understandable story is with a story that makes no sense.

[HeinousOne]

It all boils down to old grudges that die hard, an extreme dislike in some quarters for the way Citadel does business, and of course the knowledge that obviously Citadel members paint a rosier picture of what goes on behind closed doors than what the reality of the situation actually is. On that last point I'll say that they are by no means alone in doing things like that, most major groups want to present that front of strong unity. I don't fault them for it and I don't think anyone else should either. The rest of what I said in my first line varies from individual to individual and there's no accounting for that.

I agree bkphysics, I personally don't see the big deal either. When the war started and OG was on a different side from the rest of Citadel it was pretty plain that they probably weren't long for the bloc. I remember saying to someone at the time that if they were voted out it wouldn't happen until well after they were out of the war, because that's just how Citadel operates. It also wouldn't be just because they honored their treaties in the proper order.

The side argument about other Citadel alliances accepting certain members of OG is rather silly as well in my estimation. If alliances are going to be judged on accepting people with checkered pasts, there are several I'd think of before I'd look at any Citadel alliance. Also, given that a certain alliance once went around cajoling and threatening other alliances not to accept me due to my past when I first returned openly, I personally find this sort of judgmentality quite distasteful.

Sorry sponge, thats cool if you think its silly but its one thing to accept someone with a checkered past somewhere else but when that checkered past is from an alliance that you are currently kicking out of your bloc and oh....that happened to have led that alliance, that is a bit strange no matter how it is spun.

Edited June 25, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Lusitan]

Its not ironic, it actually explains the situation quite good. 3/5th realized that the Lux Aeterna was flawed in this situation because it was created years ago when this scenario was not foreseen. They then made the decision to do what is right instead of following paper and letting their friends die. 1/3rd decided to follow paper even if that means to support an aggressor and to chose the opposite side of what Citadel thought is the "right side". Thats why they now have to leave us.

And the last 1/3rd were trapped because they didn't know how to decide if you have friends on both sides of the battle - until it was too late, then they were yelled at from all sides, made a decision, were again yelled at from all sides why they come so late, were yelled at when they tried to negotiate good terms for their friends on the other side and are still called "war profiteers!" as if they had all that done intentionally.

Now that's a pretty good reply

Zenith lost OTP status when they aggressively attacked Poison Clan, an ally of Umbrella. Therefore Umbrella did not break the Lux on this occasion.

Learn2comprehendtreaties.

kthnxbai.

What, were there other occasions you did?

Outside Treaty Partners (OTPs): Any nation, alliance, or block of alliances who has agreed to any treaty requiring mutual or unilateral defense from aggression with one or more members.

I probably don't comprehend it because it's not my treaty but, from what I read, OTP status clearly states any treaty requiring mutual or unilateral defense from agression with one member (in this case Old Guard) makes the treaty partner an OTP, regardless of said OTP attacking someone or not. And that takes us to Article V:

i) Signatories shall not initiate direct or indirect aggression against any other signatory or against an OTP ii) Signatories retain the sovereign right to use direct or indirect aggression, either alone or in coordination with other signatories, in retaliation to indirect aggression against a signatory or direct aggression against an OTP by a party not protected under Article 5, paragraph i)

The Article V even specifies you can't attack an OTP that attacked a treaty partner of yours, I assume for the sake of internal cohesion, so you couldn't attack Zenith without breaking the treaty. Anyway, no need for so much implicit aggressivity in your post^ Rational discussion for the win

[Epiphanus]

I am not digging for anything, its pretty obvious. It was stated that the membership, which includes all members of OG, was no longer trusted to be in Citadel but that individual alliance ties will remain. That means you do not want them for example to see things on the forum. Well, if they all can freely join any other citadel alliance then all the stated reasons for kicking out OG are basically just cover story. Truth is the name Old Guard is damaged goods and you wanted that out. Obviously if Reyne is allowed to join any of the Citadel alliances that every other OG member for the most part could do the same.

Once again, just a cosmetic PR campaign. I am not saying that is a bad thing and it was probably necessary but this is not how you guys are trying to portray it. The way in which you are trying to cover up the perfectly understandable story is with a story that makes no sense.

You can try to spin it that way. But I'm in agreeance with sponge. It's just a bit silly to try to spin this in any other way than what the OP states.

[Kindom of Goon]

But the trust with Reyne and the other Tri that went to Argent is ok? What if a bunch of those OG nations ended up going to one of the remaining alliances in Citadel? Would they be trustworthy then? Do you put your trust in an AA name or in the nations that make it up?

You're right, lets kick Argent, and if they then join another Cit member we can kick them too.

If you had to trust every single member of every ally you have then no one here would have any allies. People make judgements on whether alliances are trustworthy or not as a whole and also by its government.

[HellAngel]

I am not digging for anything, its pretty obvious. It was stated that the membership, which includes all members of OG, was no longer trusted to be in Citadel but that individual alliance ties will remain. That means you do not want them for example to see things on the forum. Well, if they all can freely join any other citadel alliance then all the stated reasons for kicking out OG are basically just cover story. Truth is the name Old Guard is damaged goods and you wanted that out. Obviously if Reyne is allowed to join any of the Citadel alliances that every other OG member for the most part could do the same.

Once again, just a cosmetic PR campaign. I am not saying that is a bad thing and it was probably necessary but this is not how you guys are trying to portray it. The way in which you are trying to cover up the perfectly understandable story is with a story that makes no sense.

Thats a rather silly assumption. We're not doing it for the PR. Fact is, Reyne and her followers were the ones that have shaped OG's politics for a long time. As soon as they were gone, there was just a lack of any relationship to certain Citadel alliances. How can you be closely allied to someone you dont even know anymore?

Of course thats only half as bad as being allied to someone you mistrust, as that was the case before they left, but it still is valid reason to doubt their participation in the bloc.

OG is by no means out of the clique. They are still allied to TOP and Gremlins who decided to give them the time to rebuild said relations and create a new OG.

[HeinousOne]

You can try to spin it that way. But I'm in agreeance with sponge. It's just a bit silly to try to spin this in any other way than what the OP states.

Then you are in agreement with a faulty statement as I pointed out in my reply to Sponge.

Look, everyone knows about the counterbalancing power structure within Citadel. Of which alliances are closer to each other and which ones don't quite get along internally although you guys would never state that publically, to your credit. Keeping as many of the OG nations within one of those camps might be looked upon favorably by some but all seemed to realize that having the alliance of OG around was just going to continue to cause internal grief as well as external.

[Grumpdogg]

I was referring to Ejay's comment in reply to my statement saying I was surprised this did not happen sooner. In your rush to take a swing at me you missed and smacked yourself in the mouth once again.

At no stage did I say the decision was easy, just that I was surprised the decision was not made sooner.

Please STA, don't betray Polaris!

[HeinousOne]

Thats a rather silly assumption. We're not doing it for the PR. Fact is, Reyne and her followers were the ones that have shaped OG's politics for a long time. As soon as they were gone, there was just a lack of any relationship to certain Citadel alliances. How can you be closely allied to someone you dont even know anymore?

Of course thats only half as bad as being allied to someone you mistrust, as that was the case before they left, but it still is valid reason to doubt their participation in the bloc.

OG is by no means out of the clique. They are still allied to TOP and Gremlins who decided to give them the time to rebuild said relations and create a new OG.

Well, that does make sense I suppose. A bit strange that all this time you didnt get to know the Old Guard members very well but if that is the case then I can see why you wouldnt trust them. Any clue as to why Reyne and crew decided to up and leave OG?

[Epiphanus]

Then you are in agreement with a faulty statement as I pointed out in my reply to Sponge.

Look, everyone knows about the counterbalancing power structure within Citadel. Of which alliances are closer to each other and which ones don't quite get along internally although you guys would never state that publically, to your credit. Keeping as many of the OG nations within one of those camps might be looked upon favorably by some but all seemed to realize that having the alliance of OG around was just going to continue to cause internal grief as well as external.

If only your opinion mattered as much as you think it does. Sorry, I don't see any faults in his statement.

[HeinousOne]

If only your opinion mattered as much as you think it does. Sorry, I don't see any faults in his statement.

Uh oh, I must have said some things that matter. Epiphanus had to go there.

[Epiphanus]

Uh oh, I must have said some things that matter. Epiphanus had to go there.

This post makes no sense.

[HellAngel]

Well, that does make sense I suppose. A bit strange that all this time you didnt get to know the Old Guard members very well but if that is the case then I can see why you wouldnt trust them. Any clue as to why Reyne and crew decided to up and leave OG?

My knowledge on that is rather limited. Until one page ago i still thought they went free willingly, but i guess it was because OGs members wanted them gone? Dont nail me on it.

Also, OG members hardly posted on Cit boards

[Epiphanus]

My knowledge on that is rather limited. Until one page ago i still thought they went free willingly, but i guess it was because OGs members wanted them gone? Dont nail me on it.

Also, OG members hardly posted on Cit boards

I think they did go on their own. My post saying they were kicked was sarcasm because it appeared to me HeinousOne was implying that they were forcefully removed by Citadel.

[HeinousOne]

My knowledge on that is rather limited. Until one page ago i still thought they went free willingly, but i guess it was because OGs members wanted them gone? Dont nail me on it.

Also, OG members hardly posted on Cit boards

Nah, I make it a practice to Not nail people when they are truly attempting to be honest and forthcoming with me. I am not even trying to nail Citadel even though they now have their most newly acquired attack dog trying to belittle me.

I think they did go on their own. My post saying they were kicked was sarcasm because it appeared to me HeinousOne was implying that they were forcefully removed by Citadel.

Look, I understood what you were trying to say later after reading it again but yet again you are making an ambiguous statement here. Are you saying I was implying that Old Guard was forcefully removed from Citadel, which the OP states, or that I was implying that individuals were forcefully removed from OG by Citadel which I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion.

If it is neither of those two then please state your intentions and your beliefs more clearly so I can properly disassemble them. Thank you.

[The AUT]

Zenith lost OTP status when they aggressively attacked Poison Clan, an ally of Umbrella. Therefore Umbrella did not break the Lux on this occasion.

Learn2comprehendtreaties.

kthnxbai.

This was due to Poison Clan breaking the NAP between them and The Phoenix Federation therefore Zenith entered in defense of its allies in this situation.

Backpedal harder, LJ.

[WorkingClassRuler]

Good luck to all our allies in Citadel, I do think you'll be better off.

[WingEater]

It all boils down to old grudges that die hard, an extreme dislike in some quarters for the way Citadel does business, and of course the knowledge that obviously Citadel members paint a rosier picture of what goes on behind closed doors than what the reality of the situation actually is. On that last point I'll say that they are by no means alone in doing things like that, most major groups want to present that front of strong unity. I don't fault them for it and I don't think anyone else should either. The rest of what I said in my first line varies from individual to individual and there's no accounting for that.

I agree bkphysics, I personally don't see the big deal either. When the war started and OG was on a different side from the rest of Citadel it was pretty plain that they probably weren't long for the bloc. I remember saying to someone at the time that if they were voted out it wouldn't happen until well after they were out of the war, because that's just how Citadel operates. It also wouldn't be just because they honored their treaties in the proper order.

The side argument about other Citadel alliances accepting certain members of OG is rather silly as well in my estimation. If alliances are going to be judged on accepting people with checkered pasts, there are several I'd think of before I'd look at any Citadel alliance. Also, given that a certain alliance once went around cajoling and threatening other alliances not to accept me due to my past when I first returned openly, I personally find this sort of judgmentality quite distasteful.

There is quite a bit of truth in here.

There is still quite a bit of support for OG in the Citadel, but when there is such a gap between alliances in a bloc then someone has to go. You can't have a bloc that contains alliances that don't see eye to eye. If you do you end up with the Continuum, One Vision, or any one of the other blocs that self destruct. In a fight you have to know that the other members have your back no matter what. If that trust isn't there a change has to be made. Hopefully in the future OG and the rest of the Citadel can mend fences and come back together.

Edited June 25, 2009 by WingEater

[WingEater]

This was due to Poison Clan breaking the NAP between them and The Phoenix Federation therefore Zenith entered in defense of its allies in this situation.

Backpedal harder, LJ.

This is one of the biggest problems in bloc politics, too many alliances sign too many damn treaties. And really that became the spark that ignited this whole situation, but there were other issues.

[Branimir]

I have also heard something about the war being the reason for OG getting kicked. That is not the fact.

1/3rd decided to follow paper even if that means to support an aggressor and to chose the opposite side of what Citadel thought is the "right side". Thats why they now have to leave us.

Nobody would really blame Cit to throw out OG for their side in the war. I really don't know why you always need to spin your stuff to make it rosier then it is, even when it is not necessary. Obviously the plain facts will rise up to the light.

It is like a knee jerk reaction with you people, and I really dislike that. No offense, but thats just not my coup of tee.

Anyway, good luck to OG. Hope you manage through these times.

[Empress Theodora]

Let’s see here not sure where to begin.

SWK left OG a while ago, while Reyne and mrniice recently left approx. 2 weeks ago. While Reyne was the most vocal and visible part of OG she was not a dictator. The OG as a whole is responsible for the direction we took and the decision made. The majority of OG while active in the alliance are not involved in the day to day politics of CN there by not being completely informed of exactly the sensitivity of what was going on and the possible consequences of our actions is no excuse. Reyne did not make any decision with first a vote form the OG membership, most of our votes are very close like 23-25 but that is sufficient for passage.

While we would of liked to be given a chance to show Citadel that OG is trustworthy and that while we may have followed where Reyne lead that we are capable of change of being active thinking people some were not willing to listen or even considering the thought of a second chance. While our official expulsion/removal from Citadel took a while to happen it was a forgone conclusion as there are those within Citadel whose minds are closed to reconciliation.

OG stands besides her true friends and allies. We are in the midst of internal reorganization. We are reviewing where we stand and where we've been and where we wish to go in the future.

We wish the Citadel the best of luck in wherever the future leads it and we thank those within the Citadel that were voices that defended us and stood up for us in the midst of the farce of a trial that took place.

OG's current leadership is as follows:

Triumvir of Internal Affairs:

B_Edwa of Dollars and Denari

Triumvir Of Security:

Empress Theodora of Godrics Hollow

Triumvir of External Affairs

genobadass of Pharsalus

Due to RL constraints we have not made an announcement here in OWF however we have been getting the word out to our allies the set up of our new government. Also the CN wiki has not been changed because honestly it never crossed our minds to change it. I for one forgot it was even there

[flak attack]

This was due to Poison Clan breaking the NAP between them and The Phoenix Federation therefore Zenith entered in defense of its allies in this situation.

Backpedal harder, LJ.

I can't seem to recall PC breaking a NAP with TPF. It looks to me like they followed the cancellation procedures properly.

[AnCapistan]

Citadel is better without OG in it.

OG is probably better without The Citadel.

I mean it's a win win all around IMO.

[Dr. Dan]

Nobody would really blame Cit to throw out OG for their side in the war. I really don't know why you always need to spin your stuff to make it rosier then it is, even when it is not necessary. Obviously the plain facts will rise up to the light.

It is like a knee jerk reaction with you people, and I really dislike that. No offense, but thats just not my coup of tee.

Anyway, good luck to OG. Hope you manage through these times.

Branimir, to be fair, I don't think that's spin. They just have different viewpoints on why they supported the same end result.