Citadel Announcement

[Lokie]

You can sugar coat it all you want, but at the end of the day, you are not on an ivory tower, you are just like everyone else.

Whoever said we were on an ivory tower? We certainly do not claim to be on some ivory tower or be a special entity. We are who we are. It is only other people who can put us on those "ivory towers." I guess my point is we don't want people to think we are better than them or we are the best. We are the Citadel no more, no less.

No Gods or Kings, Just Man.

When I say Man I mean Humanity women included...even tho I still say Women playing Cybernations is a Myth like a unicorn.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Lokie

[Venizelos]

totally, 100% expected.

[D34th]

Looks like the "being used as a tool" excuse is fashionable nowadays.

Edited June 26, 2009 by D34th

[enderland]

2. Needless to say, I have not been privy to Citadel workings since I stepped down as triumvir, so I cannot comment on the current events affecting them and the Old Guard. Knowing the participants as I do however, I will state that oft-repeated maxim: "The victors get to write the histories". 'Nuff said.

You still feel like the victim here?

There are plenty of reasons I saw from my time in Gre why Old Guard did not fit into Citadel. Do not even TRY to play the "we got played because we lost!" card.

[Sun WuKong]

You still feel like the victim here?

Hardly. As I said (pretty clearly) I don't have an opinion on OG's ouster by Citadel. I do have an opinion about Citadel's internal politics, but I have left that unvoiced.

Run your spin cycle elsewhere.

[HellAngel]

I love how you say you just stated your opinion and in the same post accuse ender of spinning the situation when he did exactly the same thing.

[Zombie Glaucon]

When I say Man I mean Humanity women included...

Of course you do, because that's what Man/Mankind means. Any pretensions that the terms is exclusionary is out-right ignorance. No offense to you, I just hate idiots.

[Azhrarn]

1. ...I have not been a triumvir of the Old Guard for at least three months; and when I had stepped down from the position... I had in fact, left the Old Guard prior to the outbreak of the 'Karma' war with the intention of quitting the game; I returned to the Old Guard and reactivated when they were attacked by OBR. Once peace was secured and things were settled, I again left the Old Guard - over a month ago.

This insignificant individual would, as you say, "Just [like] to clarify a couple of points:"

1) OG attacked Greenland Republic, with whom OBR holds its only MDP. OBR/BW therefore defended GR from OG.

2) @ ender land - It's not quite accurate to say that Reyne simply "walked away." She's lost her reputation, and her alliance, and she's now - if the rumors are to be believed - finding shelter in a new alliance from which she's forever barred from holding a government position.

My best wishes to Citadel, who seem to have successfully resolved quite the Gordian Knot. And my best wishes to OG, as they chart a new course for themselves.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Azhrarn

[LiquidMercury]

And likewise, much respect to you as well LM, as far as I know you've been a straight-shooter... if you say I'm a bit off-base, then I'm a bit off base... but at the same time it still doesn't quite cover everything.

Yah I know it doesn't quite cover anything, and lets face it, it never will. Without being within citadel you'll never understand it all, and we'll never be able to explain it all. It is for that reason that I just wish you'd say, "hey best of luck OG and hope everything works out for the best." You know I'll always tell it how it is and I'm not one to sugar coat things. Instead of speculating here you know my door is always open and you're more then welcome to come ask what you may have questions about. This is just an announcement and like many things in CN the majority of it won't be understood and is left up to mere speculation. My best advice is to just go to the source if you have questions then piddle around on these boards to let the trolls feed on.

Yet his words seem to mirror similiar views expressed earlier. Whether he is off base or not matters not as much as the fact that this is how quite a few folks appear to be viewing the situation from the outside.

Fact is it's not something easily explained. Out of respect for me I ask that all you do is wish OG well in their future and have hope in your hearts. A new CN is upon us and lets all just be more friendly people. As I said to Hizzy if you're confused about anything my door is always open and I welcome questions or inqueries about the daily meanderings of CN in all respects.

[enderland]

Hardly. As I said (pretty clearly) I don't have an opinion on OG's ouster by Citadel. I do have an opinion about Citadel's internal politics, but I have left that unvoiced.

Run your spin cycle elsewhere.

Care to explain this quote from your post then -

2. Needless to say, I have not been privy to Citadel workings since I stepped down as triumvir, so I cannot comment on the current events affecting them and the Old Guard. Knowing the participants as I do however, I will state that oft-repeated maxim: "The victors get to write the histories". 'Nuff said.

I am not sure how that could be interpreted any differently.

[Sileath]

Fact is it's not something easily explained. Out of respect for me I ask that all you do is wish OG well in their future and have hope in your hearts. A new CN is upon us and lets all just be more friendly people. As I said to Hizzy if you're confused about anything my door is always open and I welcome questions or inqueries about the daily meanderings of CN in all respects.

I really enjoyed this post.

OG, I wish you well in your future.

[LiquidMercury]

I really enjoyed this post.

OG, I wish you well in your future.

Thank you.

[Deadshot]

Yah I know it doesn't quite cover anything, and lets face it, it never will. Without being within citadel you'll never understand it all, and we'll never be able to explain it all. It is for that reason that I just wish you'd say, "hey best of luck OG and hope everything works out for the best." You know I'll always tell it how it is and I'm not one to sugar coat things. Instead of speculating here you know my door is always open and you're more then welcome to come ask what you may have questions about. This is just an announcement and like many things in CN the majority of it won't be understood and is left up to mere speculation. My best advice is to just go to the source if you have questions then piddle around on these boards to let the trolls feed on.

Fact is it's not something easily explained. Out of respect for me I ask that all you do is wish OG well in their future and have hope in your hearts. A new CN is upon us and lets all just be more friendly people. As I said to Hizzy if you're confused about anything my door is always open and I welcome questions or inqueries about the daily meanderings of CN in all respects.

Voted best and truest post of the year thus far.

[LJ Scott]

That make absolutely no sense, why would an alliance any alliance vote to expel another alliance with 1 vote and then with the second vote they decide to do the opposite is just..well the picture below will explain better then I could.

Perhaps those in STA may be sheep and follow every single word Tiga shoves down their throats, but we in Citadel are much different. Each alliance that makes up Citadel prides itself on their respective democracies and ability to discuss things at length, allowing us to capture the thoughts of all members. I'd like to think that we're all pretty opinionated on every issue that comes up from discussion, and so you will have those whom argue on one side, and those on the other perhaps.

In the instance that, should a Citadel alliances membership be extremely split on a voting matter, the two votes can be cast as such to incorporate the real feeling of the alliance i.e. in this case one vote for expulsion, and one against.

you are just like everyone else.

I like to think of it this way, Citadel is a bunch of esteemed fine gentleman, whereas the rest of CN are just regualr fine gentleman.

2) @ ender land - It's not quite accurate to say that Reyne simply "walked away." She's lost her reputation, and her alliance, and she's now - if the rumors are to be believed - finding shelter in a new alliance from which she's forever barred from holding a government position.

Someone from Argent would have to clarify this, but as I understand it, Reyne will be able to run for governmental positions in Argent in just under 3 months time.

[JoshuaR]

Voted best and truest post of the year thus far.

It can't be true if he just said that a new CN is upon us, though maybe he is correct in advising greater friendliness.

As for Old Guard and the Citadel... I'm actually surprised Old Guard didn't hold a vote to leave the Citadel and retain only Continuum membership long ago. That they were removed at this point seems almost ironic.

[Sileath]

Perhaps those in STA may be sheep and follow every single word Tiga shoves down their throats

From my short time in STA, and observations of the posts of the members since then, Tygaland is very good at posting what is in the best interests of STA, and most members simply acknowledge that. If Tygaland's posts were illogical, and the high agreement rate between his members and his posts still existed, then one could characterize that as being sheep. So, until/unless such an illogical post is made, and is accompanied by dogmatic adherence, I cannot criticize STA membership for said agreement rate.

tl;dr - STA agrees with Tygaland because he's generally "right" in the perception of STA

Yes, I edited my post. So what, you want to fight about it?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Sileath

[jer]

In a way, yes. However it was also mentioned that the general membership of OG continued to knowingly vote those people in. So those who are left to deal with the problem can still be blamed for the position they put themselves in.

I have always hated the 'the membership are responsible for the crimes of their leader' line of reasoning. How do the rest of Citadel know what exactly goes on behind closed doors at OG? Was the OG populace fanatically supporting it's leaders as their alliance started to move away from Citadel in ideology and action? Or did they just vote for the most recognisable name out of apathy? Clearly the first crime would give credence to the action of kicking them out, whilst the second action is less serious and dare I say it salvageable without too much drastic action (obviously you'd have to think they are worth saving in the first place...). I have never liked what I've seen of OG but I blame their leadership first and foremost because their words and actions out here on the world stage for all to see - a luxury which we are not afforded when it comes to their general membership.

Oh please, stop trying to pretend that the Citadel is some special entity that transcends the basic norms that govern political entities on this planet. It was not hard at all for informed observers to discern that OG's tenure in Citadel would not last much longer. There were disagreements between you and them before, they were the only one to fight on NPO's side in this war, two of you (I'm including Argent in this) fought one of their few MDoAP partners, and the newest member of Citadel fought for Karma. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this many things on one side can tip the scales and lead to a cancellation. So no, it wasn't idle speculation or a simple guess on 50/50 odds. It was an informed hypothesis based on observations of what was happening and analysis of what had happened before in other blocs. What this cancellation does is show the world that Citadel is no better or worse than any other bloc and is not somehow immune to the dynamics that can pull these entities apart. So stop pretending that you are any different. You can sugar coat it all you want, but at the end of the day, you are not on an ivory tower, you are just like everyone else.

Sheesh, it's sounding like you have an inferiority complex or something right now. To my mind (and as has been said by others) they're just trying to show a united front with a group of people that are still linked to the bloc. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, this is nothing unusual at all.

Yah I know it doesn't quite cover anything, and lets face it, it never will. Without being within citadel you'll never understand it all, and we'll never be able to explain it all. It is for that reason that I just wish you'd say, "hey best of luck OG and hope everything works out for the best." You know I'll always tell it how it is and I'm not one to sugar coat things. Instead of speculating here you know my door is always open and you're more then welcome to come ask what you may have questions about. This is just an announcement and like many things in CN the majority of it won't be understood and is left up to mere speculation. My best advice is to just go to the source if you have questions then piddle around on these boards to let the trolls feed on.

You have to realise that a great many people do not have access to Citadel, yet still like to be involved and to have fun. You may not like speculation regarding your dealings, but the speculators do. If you want to stop it then telling everyone to stick to boring and clichéd platitudes just won't cut it. You either tell the whole story or you put up with speculation.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Azhrarn]

Someone from Argent would have to clarify this, but as I understand it, Reyne will be able to run for governmental positions in Argent in just under 3 months time.

In light of widespread rumors/speculation regarding a formal prohibition vs an informal understanding, if Argent wishes to clarify this subject that's certainly their prerogative, but I for one am certainly not demanding an explanation. The way I see it, that's an issue between Argent and the rest of Citadel, and really none of my business. The point I was trying to make is that Reyne has paid a price, that's all.

And so, I'll just reiterate my well wishes to both Citadel and OG.

[jer]

Perhaps those in STA may be sheep and follow every single word Tiga shoves down their throats

That you cannot spell his name properly reveals the depth of your knowledge regarding the STA.

[LJ Scott]

That you cannot spell his name properly reveals the depth of your knowledge regarding the STA.

Spelt as intended

[jer]

What?

[SunnyInc]

You have to realise that a great many people do not have access to Citadel, yet still like to be involved and to have fun. You may not like speculation regarding your dealings, but the speculators do. If you want to stop it then telling everyone to stick to boring and clichéd platitudes just won't cut it. You either tell the whole story or you put up with speculation.

Alot of people fail to qualify when they are speculating so its often difficult to tell whether they actually believe what they are saying....

Edited June 26, 2009 by SunnyInc

[Blue Lightning]

From my short time in STA, and observations of the posts of the members since then, Tygaland is very good at posting what is in the best interests of STA, and most members simply acknowledge that. If Tygaland's posts were illogical, and the high agreement rate between his members and his posts still existed, then one could characterize that as being sheep. So, until/unless such an illogical post is made, and is accompanied by dogmatic adherence, I cannot criticize STA membership for said agreement rate.

tl;dr - STA agrees with Tygaland because he's generally "right" in the perception of STA

Yes, I edited my post. So what, you want to fight about it?

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think LJ Scott was just trying to use STA as an example of an alliance who's leadership (specifically Tyga) is the sole sovereign and so it is reasonable for an outsider assume that Tyga's opinion is as good as STA's opinion on any given matter. Most Citadel alliances, on the other hand, are more democratic and therefore the opinions of our respective leaders are much less important in determining our actions and policy than those of Tygaland in determining STA's course.

[edit]So while it wouldn't make much sense for a dictatorial alliance like STA to have 2 conflicting votes on an issue, it makes sense for the more democratically leaning in Citadel.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Blue Lightning

[Tygaland]

Perhaps those in STA may be sheep and follow every single word Tiga shoves down their throats, but we in Citadel are much different. Each alliance that makes up Citadel prides itself on their respective democracies and ability to discuss things at length, allowing us to capture the thoughts of all members. I'd like to think that we're all pretty opinionated on every issue that comes up from discussion, and so you will have those whom argue on one side, and those on the other perhaps.

If you are going to insult me, my alliance and her members then at least spell my name correctly.

In the instance that, should a Citadel alliances membership be extremely split on a voting matter, the two votes can be cast as such to incorporate the real feeling of the alliance i.e. in this case one vote for expulsion, and one against.

So, if you have a domestic vote that is 55% in favour of expulsion you'd cast one vote for and one vote against expulsion in Citadel effectively negating your alliance's vote there and ignoring the actual majority so as to appear to represent both sides of your alliance's domestic vote? lol

[threefingeredguy]

I have always hated the 'the membership are responsible for the crimes of their leader' line of reasoning. How do the rest of Citadel know what exactly goes on behind closed doors at OG?

They told us.

Was the OG populace fanatically supporting it's leaders as their alliance started to move away from Citadel in ideology and action? Or did they just vote for the most recognisable name out of apathy?

This I don't know. All I heard was that they basically just voted 'yes' on whatever the gov told them to do. IMO even with responsible leaders, this is a HUGE liability for any alliance (we Citadel guys highly value activity and active participation, you see) and any blocs that the alliance is part of. It also allows the gov to run wild with their decisions, which can be much more nakedly influenced by personal grudges or aspirations.