Citadel Announcement

[Kryievla]

Hizzy: "Did Umbrella threaten to walk out on Citadel unless OG were expelled?"

LJ Scott: "I did not have sexual relations with Ms.Lewinsky"

Heh. That did make me laugh

Good luck to both parties.

[Trouble Terrible]

The greatest irony of this whole thing is that Reyne is now in Argent.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Trouble Terrible

[Stormsend]

[ooc]Why do states have 2 senators? I don't actually know the answer to this, but I assume there's a logical reason.[/ooc]

[ooc]Because it would give states equal representation in one chamber of Congress. Part of an agreement back in the day.[/ooc]

So, Citadel is without two key figures now. Fascinating.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

As I understand it:

Each alliance has two representatives. It is entirely up to each sovereign alliance to determine who represents them. Lux Aeterna does not make any presumption about our government form, or dictate internal procedures. Therefore of course it is logically possible for an alliance to send two representatives that wind up voting differently.

If STA were a member of Citadel I suppose Tyga would have to appoint a second representative, so even in that case it would be possible for STA to split their vote. Although presumably the fact that Tyga could replace that second representative at any time would be a strong factor to discourage it.

[Kenji88]

lol its ur decision I still support u Guys

[Empress Theodora]

You have an embassy on the boards, so if you don't have access to it, someone did something wrong. Just ask whoever can do something about it. (You should know, but since I'm a new member, I don't yet.)

The issue of masking was taken care of shortly after my post. Amazing what can happen, and how quickly, when ones actions are reviled to the public. The embassy was then created sometime in the afternoon. Thank you for your input however.

I thought it was more like:

Hizzy: "Did Umbrella threaten to walk out on Citadel unless OG were expelled?"

LJ Scott: "I did not have sexual relations with Ms.Lewinsky"

a perfect paraphrase of LJ Scott's evasive attempt at a non incriminating answer.

[Khyber]

Honestly gents, the reasons outlined in the OP are a mixed bag of issues that arouse with OG over a long period of time. Some where not directed at all the different alliances, some were. You want a black and white reason x for asking OG to leave, you won't get one. The reasons are all varied, from individuals to alliances. I am not going to list them here or anywhere to be honest, because what I can is already on the OP. Yes it's vague, but I would rather take what you throw at us here then start pissing on our friends in a dirty little tell all.

Couple of things I will make clear:

1) TOP has no intention to drop our treaty with Old Guard, and we still consider them allies and friends. I've already made my intentions clear to them on this point.

2) Umbrella never to my knowledge gave an ultimatum. To not consider Umbrella's position would have been stupid of us, so it was a factor. But we try to consider all our allies positions before doing something, even when we disagree with their position, consideration is a must.

3) OG handled themselves with class throughout the process.

4) This sucked. I don't know how to say it differently. It was nessessary but it sucked having to go through this.

And I know this sounds cliche, but I hope to one day to have OG back in Citadel. I think many will see great things with the new face of OG, and some of the old if Genobadass decides to come back in full force. I've been impressed in the discussions we had.

Lastly Reyne, I know she gets all fired up, says some stupid !@#$ when she does, and I know that some people like to cast people into roles of hero, or villian, or idiot, or you name it. Thing is, like everyone you take the time to know, there are different faces and facets of them. Argent accepted Reyne on something they saw and liked in her. It is not my place to go about dictating what they should and should not do and niether should any of you. If this really is an issue for you, they are good guys, just talk to them. And I honestly believe she may have had a choice of more then one alliance in Citadel, so Argent's entry was not a convience exploited to dump Reyne in.

If you want answers you can pm me, yes, you know how these things are, I can't reveal some stuff, but I'll be honest with what I can.

'Till then all that can be asked is you respect our decision, and please try to consider how difficult this was.

[cookavich]

You're assuming that any alliance which voted to expel Old Guard from Citadel does not regard Old Guard as a friend. As you pointed out, the fact that 3 of the alliances hold individual treaties would imply that they are still friends with them, even if some (or all) of them voted in favour of their expulsion. I think this is proof of the sentiment (expressed in the OP) that their removal from The Citadel does not mean that some (if not all) of us no longer consider them friends.

Treaties do not equal friendships.

[Blue Lightning]

"their removal from The Citadel does not mean that some (if not all) of us no longer consider them friends."

You imply that it is possible for all of Citadel's members to still think of OG as friends.

Yes, I did imply that it's possible. I didn't say that it was the case, nor that I believe it to be the case. There is a distinct difference between saying something is possible and believing it to be the case. [OOC]For example, I would say that it is possible that aliens have landed on Earth but that does not mean that I believe that they have[/OOC]. By not noting the difference you (and Chickenzilla) are either unable to understand fairly basic language or you are deliberately ignoring the difference as the basis for yet another attempt to make me (and Citadel by association) look bad.

I'd find the possibility that you are just being ignorant easier to believe if your lack of basic interpretation wasn't pretty much always used as a foundation for petty attacks on those you dislike. It seems that every thread that a Citadel alliance posts includes at least one post by you trying to paint us as villains.

[mrcalkin]

I will say as much as I know about an ultimatum however I honestly don't know if one was formally issued or not. When I was still in Umbrella, ejayrazz asked me if it was correct that Umbrella would leave the Citadel if OG was not booted, and I said that the membership at that time, informally polled by myself, were leaning towards leaving Citadel if OG was not booted. I do not really know if an ultimatum was issued before or after (I was rapidly becoming inactive in Umbrella myself and hadn't really been keeping up on gov affairs for quite awhile before I left) but I never saw any logs or anything that could be clearly called an ultimatum (i.e. a log that said "Umbrella or OG" or something similar). I know it was often brought up by Citadel governments but if this stemmed from me, it was really just my attempt at answering an allied gov's question honestly.

Edited June 26, 2009 by mrcalkin

[Kroknia]

thank you mrcalkin.

[hizzy]

Yes, I did imply that it's possible.

And it's been proven that it's not.

I didn't say that it was the case, nor that I believe it to be the case. There is a distinct difference between saying something is possible and believing it to be the case. [OOC]For example, I would say that it is possible that aliens have landed on Earth but that does not mean that I believe that they have[/OOC]. By not noting the difference you (and Chickenzilla) are either unable to understand fairly basic language or you are deliberately ignoring the difference as the basis for yet another attempt to make me (and Citadel by association) look bad.

I'd find the possibility that you are just being ignorant easier to believe if your lack of basic interpretation wasn't pretty much always used as a foundation for petty attacks on those you dislike. It seems that every thread that a Citadel alliance posts includes at least one post by you trying to paint us as villains.

Ah, no.

I haven't painted anyone as anything. I presented an issue, which incidentally turned out to be true, and you hate me for it. I can live with that, and in fact I couldn't care less. I've tried to remain respectful to all members of the discussion, if you can not do the same then it's your loss. Claiming I lack basic interpretation speaks more about the position of your argument than it does about mine. I'll take it any day.

For the record, Gremlins are one of my favourite alliances on Planet Bob. Just cause you don't like me, doesn't mean I don't like your friends. Quite frankly, you can learn a thing or two from your friends. They're good people.

[Derwood1]

This horse is way past dead.....next!

Edited June 26, 2009 by Derwood1

[enderland]

This horse is way past dead.....next!

Its not a citadel thread if it isn't at least 30 pages of personal attacks and circular 'arguments.'

[WarriorConcept]

Its not a citadel thread if it isn't at least 30 pages of personal attacks and circular 'arguments.'

That wasn't as clever as you'd thought, I'd imagine.

[enderland]

That wasn't as clever as you'd thought, I'd imagine.

On the contrary, I would expect most Citadel members to find it quite humorous for reasons those who have never been in Cit would not understand in the slightest.

[Derwood1]

On the contrary, I would expect most Citadel members to find it quite humorous for reasons those who have never been in Cit would not understand in the slightest.

I personally thought it was hilarious but the horse is still dead

[Terminator]

This is one of the biggest problems in bloc politics, too many alliances sign too many damn treaties. And really that became the spark that ignited this whole situation, but there were other issues.

so true

Edited June 26, 2009 by Terminator

[Monster]

The issue of masking was taken care of shortly after my post. Amazing what can happen, and how quickly, when ones actions are reviled to the public. The embassy was then created sometime in the afternoon. Thank you for your input however.

Wrong. It had been up for two days. We didn't know about the masking issue and no one from OG had asked.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Antoine Roquentin

[Xavii]

The issue of masking was taken care of shortly after my post. Amazing what can happen, and how quickly, when ones actions are reviled to the public. The embassy was then created sometime in the afternoon. Thank you for your input however.

What actions would that be? Besides a masking mistake that was fixed shortly after it was discovered.

[PhysicsJunky]

Its not a citadel thread if it isn't at least 30 pages of personal attacks and circular 'arguments.'

As well as circular attacks and personal arguments. Lots of players with long CN histories on both sides of the divide. Sort of inevitable.

[Delta1212]

On the contrary, I would expect most Citadel members to find it quite humorous for reasons those who have never been in Cit would not understand in the slightest.

Lots of Citadel threads involve personal insults and lots of circular arguments in their debates?

[RandomInterrupt]

Perhaps those in STA may be sheep and follow every single word Tiga shoves down their throats, but we in Citadel are much different. Each alliance that makes up Citadel prides itself on their respective democracies and ability to discuss things at length, allowing us to capture the thoughts of all members. I'd like to think that we're all pretty opinionated on every issue that comes up from discussion, and so you will have those whom argue on one side, and those on the other perhaps.

This is especially laughable considering the method in which TOP arranged for the Citadel (minus the FCC) to attack in the NoCB war. You know, the part where TOP went around selling the idea that there was a devious plot against them where no such plot ever existed and there was never any proof. You were sheep then and you'll do it again quite easily.

When in the history of the STA have they followed the leader and done as they were told without question? I defy you to find one point in history in which they have done so. If you want to pick an alliance to call "sheep" you couldn't have picked a less-apt group of people. In my long long history of working with the STA I have found them to be very headstrong and proud, and not a group that can be led around by a charismatic personality or the pretense of some ideal.

I don't expect you to get that though. It would require spending time actually looking and forming independent thought instead of just reacting to an STA member making reasoned responses to your bloc's PR mistake.

I like to think of it this way, Citadel is a bunch of esteemed fine gentleman, whereas the rest of CN are just regualr fine gentleman.

And this very thread has shown this to not be true. Citadel is just like everyone else, and far less dignified and organized than several blocs before it.

[Tom Litler]

And this very thread has shown this to not be true. Citadel is just like everyone else, and far less dignified and organized than several blocs before it.

I don't understand what it is people like you are looking for. Did the Citadel ever purport to be supermen? Why are they suddenly held to such saintly standards. I don't like neither the Citadel nor Old Guard but the signatories of Lux Aeterna have done what any other group would in their situation. Why do you make them out to be some sort of criminals for choosing to disassociate themselves from a purported ally that would side with their enemies in war?

[kobiashiy]

Best of luck to Old Guard in the future