Syzygy Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Did I mention something about how it was either expected or unexpected? No.Fact of the matter is for those nine months when Old Guard was being "disrespectful" and "growing apart", the rest of the Citadel would parade out the same !@#$%^&* propaganda line about how close they really were, and how open they were to different opinions. The fact that the Citadel then kicks Old Guard out on it's $@! and does an 180 on it's long held PR line simply confirms what I've always believed. Citadel is not anymore special then any other bloc. It is not more honorable. It is not more honest. It's just another brick in the wall, contrary to over nine months of assertions. That, my friend, amuses me. That, stranger, does only confirm how little you know about Citadel. What amuses me is your fingerpointing "see, they are NOT SPECIAL!". Because it sounds like you are afraid anyone could believe we are 'special' when it comes to honor and honesty. And I wonder if that is just anger over the own incompetence to create something special or simple envy. Fortunately I know a lot more than you, and my knowledge about Citadel internals is based on witnessing discussions while yours is based on hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TECUMSEH Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Best of luck to OG in their future endeavors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Wait, the entire triumvirate of an alliance leaves it, and then the alliance is kicked out of a bloc, and suddenly where the triumvirate went now is "about individuals"?Especially when they went to different alliances who have a somewhat unpleasant history between them? And two of them went to an alliance which is in the bloc that kicked out their former alliance? Excuse me if I feel a bit skeptical. It makes a lot of difference if the person in question is just a standard member or a governing executive. But if it makes you feel better, i wasnt happy at all to hear we will still have to deal with her. It's not up to me to decide who Argent let's in their alliance though and since they are still new they are given a lot of "favour of the doubt". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Dan Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 That, stranger, does only confirm how little you know about Citadel.What amuses me is your fingerpointing "see, they are NOT SPECIAL!". Because it sounds like you are afraid anyone could believe we are 'special' when it comes to honor and honesty. And I wonder if that is just anger over the own incompetence to create something special or simple envy. Fortunately I know a lot more than you, and my knowledge about Citadel internals is based on witnessing discussions while yours is based on hearsay. That summarized what I was thinking completely. Citadel is still special to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Fortunately I know a lot more than you, and my knowledge about Citadel internals is based on witnessing discussions while yours is based on hearsay. While I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, I'd like to take this time to respond to this line of defense that has been used so often and point out that the "I KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING AND YOU DON'T" defense doesn't work when people constantly call your actions in advance. If you're saying it was obvious weeks ago to everyone except you that this would happen, then perhaps it's YOU that needs to pay more attention to the goings-on both within your bloc and on these boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Dan Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) While I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, I'd like to take this time to respond to this line of defense that has been used so often and point out that the "I KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING AND YOU DON'T" defense doesn't work when people constantly call your actions in advance. If you're saying it was obvious weeks ago to everyone except you that this would happen, then perhaps it's YOU that needs to pay more attention to the goings-on both within your bloc and on these boards. So you guessed that OG was leaving correctly. Do you think you have more intimate knowledge than Syz or anyone else in Citadel of our daily operations and relationships? Edited June 25, 2009 by Dr. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epiphanus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Did I mention something about how it was either expected or unexpected? No.Fact of the matter is for those nine months when Old Guard was being "disrespectful" and "growing apart", the rest of the Citadel would parade out the same !@#$%^&* propaganda line about how close they really were, and how open they were to different opinions. The fact that the Citadel then kicks Old Guard out on it's $@! and does an 180 on it's long held PR line simply confirms what I've always believed. Citadel is not anymore special then any other bloc. It is not more honorable. It is not more honest. It's just another brick in the wall, contrary to over nine months of assertions. That, my friend, amuses me. Or, you just had unreasonably high expectations. If some alliance in Frostbite started more or less doing the opposite of everyone else in Frostbite, and you had tried to work with them for months on end and it wasn't changing, at some point would you grow tired of their obstinence and kick them? Yes, yes you would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Scott Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Motion to expel Argent, since Reyne joined them, and she is obviously the route of the problem. I mean nothing was discussed about the current government and what not. No that'd be logical. Gotta fall in line with the mindframe of our Karma buddies! ALBANIAN RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syzygy Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 While I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, I'd like to take this time to respond to this line of defense that has been used so often and point out that the "I KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING AND YOU DON'T" defense doesn't work when people constantly call your actions in advance. If you're saying it was obvious weeks ago to everyone except you that this would happen, then perhaps it's YOU that needs to pay more attention to the goings-on both within your bloc and on these boards. The point is that 99% of all people coming to a thread screaming "I knew it weeks before!" are just liars. They didn't know !@#$. They guessed it and they had a 50/50 chance - either it happened or not. Sometimes it does. Fine for them. Fact is that we STILL are close to the OG membership and I bet you won't see MDP cancellations nor do we hold ill will towards them or will allow that anyone "does bad things" to them - we just don't want to share Citadel any more with them because that trust is at the moment rather broken. Nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 The point is that 99% of all people coming to a thread screaming "I knew it weeks before!" are just liars. They didn't know !@#$. They guessed it and they had a 50/50 chance - either it happened or not. Sometimes it does. Fine for them. Fact is that we STILL are close to the OG membership and I bet you won't see MDP cancellations nor do we hold ill will towards them or will allow that anyone "does bad things" to them - we just don't want to share Citadel any more with them because that trust is at the moment rather broken. Nothing more, nothing less. The 1% is ChairmanHal, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lusitan Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 A bit of a tangent here but reading over the Lux Aeterna I noticed there was a "no attacking outside treaty partners" clause. Wasn't the Gremlins declaration of war against IRON a violation of that article, seeing as both Old Guard and IRON were still members of Continuum at the time? Truth to be told, of what I see, the only alliances who didn't break the Lux Aeterna treaty were.. Old Guard and TOP (Umbrella declared on Zenith [Old Guard MDoAP partner], Grämlins and FCC declared on IRON.). It's ironic to see 3/5s of the Citadel members (at the time) breaking the treaty and Old Guard being the one kicked, regardless of the reasons that caused this expulsion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Scott Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Truth to be told, of what I see, the only alliances who didn't break the Lux Aeterna treaty were.. Old Guard and TOP (Umbrella declared on Zenith [Old Guard MDoAP partner], Grämlins and FCC declared on IRON.). It's ironic to see 3/5s of the Citadel members (at the time) breaking the treaty and Old Guard being the one kicked, regardless of the reasons that caused this expulsion Zenith lost OTP status when they aggressively attacked Poison Clan, an ally of Umbrella. Therefore Umbrella did not break the Lux on this occasion. Learn2comprehendtreaties. kthnxbai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syzygy Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Truth to be told, of what I see, the only alliances who didn't break the Lux Aeterna treaty were.. Old Guard and TOP (Umbrella declared on Zenith [Old Guard MDoAP partner], Grämlins and FCC declared on IRON.). It's ironic to see 3/5s of the Citadel members (at the time) breaking the treaty and Old Guard being the one kicked, regardless of the reasons that caused this expulsion Its not ironic, it actually explains the situation quite good. 3/5th realized that the Lux Aeterna was flawed in this situation because it was created years ago when this scenario was not foreseen. They then made the decision to do what is right instead of following paper and letting their friends die. 1/3rd decided to follow paper even if that means to support an aggressor and to chose the opposite side of what Citadel thought is the "right side". Thats why they now have to leave us. And the last 1/3rd were trapped because they didn't know how to decide if you have friends on both sides of the battle - until it was too late, then they were yelled at from all sides, made a decision, were again yelled at from all sides why they come so late, were yelled at when they tried to negotiate good terms for their friends on the other side and are still called "war profiteers!" as if they had all that done intentionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epiphanus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Citadel: Solutions Oriented Bloc'ing Made Easy Lol, I don't really care. Put Reyne in gov't and I still don't really care. Argent came around notifying people who they thought might have had actual issues with Reyne joining them, to which I had none. I was just giving you guys a hard time. Although, I'm kinda curious why Reyne gets a second chance, but not the membership which supported policies of OG's gov't by electing the leaders OG had. Reyne joining argent was not a decision to be made by anyone outside of argent. So your point is a bit moot :\ <3 RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwood1 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Its not ironic, it actually explains the situation quite good. 3/5th realized that the Lux Aeterna was flawed in this situation because it was created years ago when this scenario was not foreseen. They then made the decision to do what is right instead of following paper and letting their friends die. 1/3rd decided to follow paper even if that means to support an aggressor and to chose the opposite side of what Citadel thought is the "right side". Thats why they now have to leave us.And the last 1/3rd were trapped because they didn't know how to decide if you have friends on both sides of the battle - until it was too late, then they were yelled at from all sides, made a decision, were again yelled at from all sides why they come so late, were yelled at when they tried to negotiate good terms for their friends on the other side and are still called "war profiteers!" as if they had all that done intentionally. Well said Syzygy and so we work to make the situation better and Citadel even stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) The point is that 99% of all people coming to a thread screaming "I knew it weeks before!" are just liars. They didn't know !@#$. They guessed it and they had a 50/50 chance - either it happened or not. Sometimes it does. Fine for them. Fact is that we STILL are close to the OG membership and I bet you won't see MDP cancellations nor do we hold ill will towards them or will allow that anyone "does bad things" to them - we just don't want to share Citadel any more with them because that trust is at the moment rather broken. Nothing more, nothing less. But the trust with Reyne and the other Tri that went to Argent is ok? What if a bunch of those OG nations ended up going to one of the remaining alliances in Citadel? Would they be trustworthy then? Do you put your trust in an AA name or in the nations that make it up? Reyne joining argent was not a decision to be made by anyone outside of argent. So your point is a bit moot :\ <3 RN Why not? If OG members were not trusted enough to remain in Citadel that would mean you do not trust the individuals. Reyne is one of those individuals. Would you say you do not trust the regular OG members but the leadership was trustable? Edited June 25, 2009 by HeinousOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkphysics Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I don't really understand all the fuss regarding the OP. OG's aspirations drifted apart from the ideals of the Citadel as a whole and they were voted out of the Citadel. Not really a big deal and TBH, it was bound to happen considering recent history etc. The thing that sucks though is the infected limb was severed but the poison still remains. Citadel is strong enough though to fight infection Thanks for the notice of the change and best of luck to all parties involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steodonn Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 There goes the one thing I dislike about Citadel Good luck to both in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwood1 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 But the trust with Reyne and the other Tri that went to Argent is ok? What if a bunch of those OG nations ended up going to one of the remaining alliances in Citadel? Would they be trustworthy then? Do you put your trust in an AA name or in the nations that make it up? Each alliance in Citadel is a sovereign entity. We give advice/suggestions to each other but in the end each alliance makes their own decisions.....we don't go around have a membership vote within Citadel for each alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Each alliance in Citadel is a sovereign entity. We give advice/suggestions to each other but in the end each alliance makes their own decisions.....we don't go around have a membership vote within Citadel for each alliance. But you have a vote on whether or not an alliance is trustable and if they are not you kick them out. Sorry, but an alliance is made up of individuals and such a vote is a vote of no confidence in those Individuals. I would think leaders would be part of that. That is why this appears to be more about removing the name of Old Guard from Citadel due to how it has been perceived. Problem is that is putting far too much attention upon an AA name and not enough to those that make it up. Basically you guys could just recruit in all the individuals and this becomes nothing but a cosmetic PR campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epiphanus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 But the trust with Reyne and the other Tri that went to Argent is ok? What if a bunch of those OG nations ended up going to one of the remaining alliances in Citadel? Would they be trustworthy then? Do you put your trust in an AA name or in the nations that make it up?Why not? If OG members were not trusted enough to remain in Citadel that would mean you do not trust the individuals. Reyne is one of those individuals. Would you say you do not trust the regular OG members but the leadership was trustable? I would say that it is not common practice for alliances on planet bob to stipulate who can or can't join other alliances. I'm sure Citadel is wary of Reyne being in Argent, but are they going to stop Argent from letting Reyne join? Obviously not. I for one applaud them for not meddling in the internal affairs of Argent. After all, alliances are sovereign, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I would say that it is not common practice for alliances on planet bob to stipulate who can or can't join other alliances. I'm sure Citadel is wary of Reyne being in Argent, but are they going to stop Argent from letting Reyne join? Obviously not. I for one applaud them for not meddling in the internal affairs of Argent. After all, alliances are sovereign, right? You applaud them for not meddling in the internal affairs of Argent while applauding them for meddling in the internal affairs of Old Guard? Yes, taking the leaders from an alliance that you are kicking out of your circle is definately meddling. I must be taking crazy pills because these explanations coming forth are making zero sense. You guys have shown you are willing to stand side by side and stick to the story but that doesn't mean the chosen story makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epiphanus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 You applaud them for not meddling in the internal affairs of Argent while applauding them for meddling in the internal affairs of Old Guard? Yes, taking the leaders from an alliance that you are kicking out of your circle is definately meddling.I must be taking crazy pills because these explanations coming forth are making zero sense. You guys have shown you are willing to stand side by side and stick to the story but that doesn't mean the chosen story makes sense. Because they definitely kicked out Reyne &co. They didn't leave of their own volition or anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Because they definitely kicked out Reyne &co. They didn't leave of their own volition or anything... OG kicked out all three of their triums? This is what would be considered New information. Up until now it seemed as if these tri's left on their own. Otherwise it would seem that the vote of no confidence in OG (thus a vote on the members) still applies to Reyne and the other two. Edited June 25, 2009 by HeinousOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epiphanus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 OG kicked out all three of their triums? This is what would be considered New information. Up until now it seemed as if these tri's left on their own. Your powers of deduction are astonishing. Yes, taking the leaders from an alliance that you are kicking out of your circle is definately meddling. Whether you were trying to say accepting leaders, or removing them, your point remains flawed. Please, tell me how argent meddled in OG's internal affairs by accepting a nation that applied to them. I'm pretty sure Argents charter doesn't say that no nation may apply to join if they were once in an alliance that was in Citadel and might get kicked in a week. You are digging and digging for something sour about this situation, sorry to disappoint you, this is all fresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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