HellAngel Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 And I love how you oversimplify someone's argument in order to laugh at it and dismiss it. Who moved away from whom is extremely important, and it's a simplistic view to think otherwise. The sincerity of the sentiments expressed in the OP and in this thread are dependent on that distinction. If you just wanted to express the hamfisted sentiment in your last sentence there, you could have easily done so without the long gushy explanation blaming OG for this *sniffle* tough decision you have to make. Ok for the sake of the argument im gonna take you seriously for a second, although i think you lack the according knowledge to make a judgement of that degree. When Citadel was formed, Gre and OG were extremely close. Having fought in GW3 together we thought them to be one of the few alliances we could connect with. Over the time, OG (and reyne in particular) have worked against us. Take for example our departure from Q, when they desperately tried to make us look as bad as possible. It's just a fact that as soon as OG got so close to NPO, relations to all other Citadel alliances started to dwindle. They thought, like many other alliances did and still do, that a close relationship to NPO is everything you need to survive in the cyberverse. Because NPO always comes out on top, right? Right. This was an ongoing process over the last one and a half years. While TOP for example always valued all of their allies, everyone got the feeling that OG just didnt care anymore about Cit. I cant remember a single incident in that timespan where OG supported our goals vocally. Now please compare OGs closeness to NPO of today to the GW3 era and you know who moved away from whom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Not really surprised to see this best of luck to the remaining Cit parties and to Old Guard. OG just holla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potato Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) This is an inaccurate portrayal for a number of reasons. By all accounts, and especially from the perspective of anyone observing at the time, it wasn't OG what was 'pegging' itself to be opposed to the Citadel; it was the Citadel that was moving away from OG. At best, some members of the Citadel could be seen as vaguely associating themselves with an amorphous anti-hegemony side. But rather quite the opposite of what you said, it was they that 'pegged' themselves to be on the opposing side of OG; and TOP, might I add, who was a member of the Continuum until the day the war started and an MDoAP partner with NPO until just days ago. Grämlins, as well, with their near-merger with MHA, who was also a member of the Continuum until the day the war started, could be seen as tenuously attached to the Hegemony. Looking at OG's ties and the Citadel's history as a functioning arm of the Hegemony, it is ridiculous to say that the Citadel was clearly going to be on Karma's side. No offense but my comrad Joker is right: it was obvious who most of Citadel would side with. OG with Hegemony, Umbrella, Grämlins and FCC with Karma. The only wild card was TOP. And it wasn't that much of a wild card as sides were getting clearer. On topic: Good luck to our allies in Citadel. Edited June 25, 2009 by potato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Rahl Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Citadel: Solutions Oriented Bloc'ing Made Easy We are all required to have 6 Sigma certifications before we can vote on anything Good luck out there OG, we're still here if you need us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terveis Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I also find it hilarious that people are saying this was a hard decision. No, it wasn't. You have no idea... Good luck OG, i still love you all! Even Reyne is awesome, and i am glad that she is in Argent now. They are an awesome bunch too. Sad that it had to come to this. OG o/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der_ko Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) This is rather meaningless when Reyne already left and joined another Citadel alliance. Edited June 25, 2009 by der_ko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroknia Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I do have a question, is this a removal or an expulsion? There are certainly different meanings to the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) This is rather meaningless when Reyne already left and joined another Citadel alliance. No it isn't. Leaders represent their alliance, if Reyne didn't 'represent them well', especially an alliance claiming to live by democratic principles..I personally have a concern. Really read the op, some of you have skipped over vital key points. This isn't about 'them joining the other side, and those proclaiming it 'should have been earlier', this is partly inaccurate. Disagreements is one thing, that was 'earlier'. Other things developed, you can contact and Citadel leader privately, I am sure they're willing to discuss it in private chambers. Edited June 25, 2009 by Ejayrazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Keshav IV Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Its taken along time coming to a decision. Good Luck OG on your new path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindom of Goon Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Reyne may have been the one that led OG to drift away but ultimately the result is they (the alliance) have drifted away, this is not really a punishment as some are suggesting, just a necessary move to keep Citadel a tight bloc. Possible she got her second chance from being so active and securing herself and the other leader of OG a position. So you actually believe we conspired to keep Reyne in Cit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroknia Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 To be fair, not only Reyne has left the alliance. Most of her main supporters have as well. I have a feeling that democratic alliance may be in a different position now as opposed to even 2 weeks ago. I still want to know if this is truly an expulsion(never have another chance if they do end up changing) or a removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I dont quite know where you see the difference. They were removed without consent, if that is what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroknia Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Expulsion can have connotations that mean an inability to rejoin under any circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crushtania Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 To be honest, from an outsider looking in, OG have not upheld the principles of Citadel - elitism but with responsibility, fairness and kindness for all. They have not conducted themselves with the tact and reverence for others that are integral to an alliance that presides in Citadel. Best of luck OG, let this be a wake-up call to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Some-Guy Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Expulsion can have connotations that mean an inability to rejoin under any circumstance. In this case, removal, not expulsion would be the correct word you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Unfortunate that things had got to the point where this was necessary. I hope that with OG's change of leadership that they have the chance to make a fresh start and rebuild the relations that the previous administration had damaged. For those of you who are saying 'about time' or 'easy decision' or 'lol Citadel doesn't appreciate diversity after all', you don't know what you're talking about. This was not an easy decision, as anyone within Citadel who has read the debates could tell you, and just a few weeks ago you saw us assisting Old Guard with getting out of a war which they entered honourably on the basis of treaty obligations. This is not some fractious split in hatred. OG and Citadel have moved apart to the point where maintaining the bloc does not make sense at this moment, but they still have many friends and I hope the old friendships can be rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I have to laugh at Reyne moving to another Citadel alliance... seems like a pretty obvious FU to the those in the bloc who wanted her out of the fold. I will be on lulzwatch for the next Argent government update announcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I do think it's interesting that nobody's commented on where Sun WuKong ended up, considering the history between Argent and Zenith as well as the history between Zenith and Citadel. For the uninitiated, Zenith was denied entrance to Citadel, partly because they were too close to TPF, who were allied to most of Citadel at the time. Meanwhile, Argent had been created on White despite most of their members being from Aqua, because they were protected by TOOL and had some issues with Aqua politics. Eventually Argent made up with Aqua, left White, and joined Citadel (I forget in which order, all closely together though). During their stay on White, tho, it's safe to say that Zenith was not their closest friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 This isn't about individuals, so it's not really interesting where Reyne or SWK have moved to. I'm sure they will both be valuable members to their new alliances, as they are active and experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicalTrevor Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Good move citadel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan King Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Apparently you missed the memo, Reyne is in Argent now. Which makes this move rather puzzling. Unfortunately I missed the memo, too. Reyne in Argent does not compute... And yeah, I totally called this when Argent got accepted to Citadel. OG, we'll be in touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyber Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 OG, I know we will continue our friendship, and I hope to see you back in Citadel one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 A bit of a tangent here but reading over the Lux Aeterna I noticed there was a "no attacking outside treaty partners" clause. Wasn't the Gremlins declaration of war against IRON a violation of that article, seeing as both Old Guard and IRON were still members of Continuum at the time? Article 5 - Aggressioni) Signatories shall not initiate direct or indirect aggression against any other signatory or against an OTP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Yeah and it caused us serveral headaches and internal fights. We just didnt think of it at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 This isn't about individuals, so it's not really interesting where Reyne or SWK have moved to. I'm sure they will both be valuable members to their new alliances, as they are active and experienced. Wait, the entire triumvirate of an alliance leaves it, and then the alliance is kicked out of a bloc, and suddenly where the triumvirate went now is "about individuals"? Especially when they went to different alliances who have a somewhat unpleasant history between them? And two of them went to an alliance which is in the bloc that kicked out their former alliance? Excuse me if I feel a bit skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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