Citadel Announcement

[Earogema]

I wouldn't so much say Argent is taking a stand as recognizing how counter-productive reyne and co remaining in OG is to OG. With her and the other two triums out, they now have an opportunity to truly change for the better without baseless accusations of her pulling strings in some psuedo-dictatorial manner.

Argent is a very mature (in OOC age at least ) alliance with the majority of our government being either college students or married adults with children. Reyne fits into the OOC side of our community very well. IC? Well, we're willing to give her that chance.

"baseless?"

She admitted to expulsion of good members simply because they didn't agree with her. She ruled with an iron fist and even made sure that OG and the outside world, knew that.

[Dr. Dan]

I hate that old person smell

Rusty needs you to change his diapers again.

[SoxNation]

I wouldn't so much say Argent is taking a stand as recognizing how counter-productive reyne and co remaining in OG is to OG. With her and the other two triums out, they now have an opportunity to truly change for the better without baseless accusations of her pulling strings in some psuedo-dictatorial manner.

Argent is a very mature (in OOC age at least ) alliance with the majority of our government being either college students or married adults with children. Reyne fits into the OOC side of our community very well. IC? Well, we're willing to give her that chance.

I understand Dio, I guess I meant more of a stand in the fact that you know some allies prefer you didn't do it and i'm sure you've caught some flack for it, as I know some have been shoveling it.

I think Reyne will fit in nicely, when not talking politics she's always been a joy to talk to.

[RustyNail]

DIAF, the both of you.

Anyone that has any questions for any Citadel leadership is welcome to ask them individually. Anyone that wishes to ask Argent anything is welcome to contact Janax or myself. I hope that in the future, relations will be what they should be and the circle can be complete again.

For now, we move to the future. TOP SPEED!!!

[King Srqt]

Good luck to everyone involved. I think it was pretty obvious that OG and the rest of Citadel had some ideological differences and this is probably best for everyone.

[WarriorConcept]

Where's my quote of liquid mercury now

Anyway, good luck to Argent keeping her out of her govt, and hopefully OG can rebound with some real leadership.

[Diomede]

"baseless?"

She admitted to expulsion of good members simply because they didn't agree with her. She ruled with an iron fist and even made sure that OG and the outside world, knew that.

If we're talking about when she was still in OG leadership then sure, I'll agree. But we're not.

On my way to college, fair well for now.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Diomede

[New Frontier]

Ironically, I like Reyne better than most Citadelians.

[HeinousOne]

Are you dense? Citadle can't control Argents membership unless they boot Argent the alliance.

Yes Citadel is not happy with Argent on the whole for accepting Reyne, Argent is taking a stand and hoping it works out.

Deal with it.

How could I be dense when you basically just proved the point I was getting at. I Never said for Citadel to do such, I was simply pointing out that this was not really about removing OG members from Citadel. It was about removing the alliance OG from Citadel. I would say that Theodora's post kind of confirms that in which she says they really didnt have much chance of defending themselves. Citadel did not wish to be connected with the name Old Guard anymore, I am sure the attack upon their sovereign bloc board had something to do with that.

Yes, we know that Some members within Citadel might not be happy with Argent doing such, we do not know that All of them are unhappy with such.

Now, I was finished with all this after seeing the OG triumvir's post but you had to go and try to take a shot at me. Care to continue? I bet they would ask you not to. I havn't even begun to speak about the factions within Citadel as that would just be disrespectful but quite frankly I am getting close to the point where I will.

"baseless?"

She admitted to expulsion of good members simply because they didn't agree with her. She ruled with an iron fist and even made sure that OG and the outside world, knew that.

And now they are getting kicked because of her while she remains. A bit backwards but oh well, it's their bloc. We all saw some of the things Reyne would post when you guys showed such. I doubt anyone will try to say she held a vote within OG for those stances as she quite boldly said that she and she alone would never allow some things to happen.

Edited June 25, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Eden Taylor]

I havn't even begun to speak about the factions within Citadel as that would just be disrespectful but quite frankly I am getting close to the point where I will.

I'm kind of curious, tbqh.

[HeinousOne]

I'm kind of curious, tbqh.

If I was right, you would either not respond or still say I was wrong. OG is a prime example of Citadel willingness to do such.

If what I have been told is wrong then it would just spur another ugly series of responses back and forth. If you are honestly curious about such you can ask the longterm members within your own alliance if you are not such yourself.

[neneko]

While we would of liked to be given a chance to show Citadel that OG is trustworthy and that while we may have followed where Reyne lead that we are capable of change of being active thinking people some were not willing to listen or even considering the thought of a second chance.

Second chance would imply you only got one before.

Good luck.

[neneko]

How could I be dense when you basically just proved the point I was getting at. I Never said for Citadel to do such, I was simply pointing out that this was not really about removing OG members from Citadel. It was about removing the alliance OG from Citadel. I would say that Theodora's post kind of confirms that in which she says they really didnt have much chance of defending themselves. Citadel did not wish to be connected with the name Old Guard anymore, I am sure the attack upon their sovereign bloc board had something to do with that.

The way I see it. Yes, we're removing the alliance not necesarilly the members. The way I see it the alliance is the one that have been causing trouble. Thus we wanted to remove it from the bloc. If the members leave and want to join another alliance in the citadel it's up to that alliance if they want to allow that. That's because I don't think we have the right to put restrictions on what members one of our member alliances want to take in. For all I care OG could merge into Argent as a whole and it still wouldn't prove your point. If Reyne had gone straight into ARgent gov then yes you'd probably have a case but that isn't the case and as far as argent have told us she havn't shown any interest in a gov position at all. Basically you're right though we're kicking out OG, not necesarilly its members if they want to leave their alliance (I'd be pretty suprised if a large number will leave OG to stay in citadel though). This doesn't imply that we just wanted to get rid of the OG 'brand' though it just shows that we can see people for being individuals despite their previous alliances, in other words, when reyne left OG she stoped being a OG member and argent had all the right in the world to take her in.

[Eden Taylor]

If I was right, you would either not respond or still say I was wrong. OG is a prime example of Citadel willingness to do such.

If what I have been told is wrong then it would just spur another ugly series of responses back and forth. If you are honestly curious about such you can ask the longterm members within your own alliance if you are not such yourself.

So what you're saying is you don't know !@#$ about the 'factions' within the Citadel because you've been told these things by someone else. So, you're willing to use this potentially incorrect data to formulate your opinions, as well as to threaten people pushing your buttons.. but now you're trying to back out of saying anything because you realize that you could be wrong and don't want to be responsible for yourself and your threats?

[Aeternos Astramora]

It was my understanding that there was an agreement on the part of Argent to effectively guarantee she'd never be allowed to run for office even if she wanted to, in order to cool some of the louder voices calling for her blood.

I freely admit this may be a distorted interpretation of the actual facts, since I heard it like seventh-hand, but I definitely got the impression it was less she was choosing to opt out as much as she was being locked out as a condition of being allowed to join Argent at all.

Your information is a bit off. We obviously asked her in the Q&A session whether she would run for government any time in the near future and about her negative image, but her acceptance was in no measure dependent on whether she planned on running for government.

Motion to expel Argent, since Reyne joined them, and she is obviously the route of the problem. I mean nothing was discussed about the current government and what not. No that'd be logical. Gotta fall in line with the mindframe of our Karma buddies!

Seconded! Wait, I mean... >_>

<_<

But the trust with Reyne and the other Tri that went to Argent is ok? What if a bunch of those OG nations ended up going to one of the remaining alliances in Citadel? Would they be trustworthy then? Do you put your trust in an AA name or in the nations that make it up?

Why not? If OG members were not trusted enough to remain in Citadel that would mean you do not trust the individuals. Reyne is one of those individuals. Would you say you do not trust the regular OG members but the leadership was trustable?

Here's the thing. A majority of OG members voted consistently to to follow policies that resulted in distancing themselves from Citadel. A majority. Argent had 54 members when we joined Citadel, vast majority of which the rest of Citadel like. Our policies will continue to be pro-Citadel.

If you're trying to claim that every single member of all treaty partners in every bloc/treaty must like each other, then you just found the reason why every alliance should turn into GPA neutrality.

Semantics. I have noticed the tendency lately that every debate heavily goes into semantics, pointless one at that. To just use to contradict for contradict sake,...also squeeze a small insult and there you go. You have a CN post.

You know, "semantics" is about meaning, and it's quite important to know the meaning of words to have a coherent discussion. The war was not the cause of OG's removal. It was just an expression of the two different paths Citadel and OG went on.

[HeinousOne]

So what you're saying is you don't know !@#$ about the 'factions' within the Citadel because you've been told these things by someone else. So, you're willing to use this potentially incorrect data to formulate your opinions, as well as to threaten people pushing your buttons.. but now you're trying to back out of saying anything because you realize that you could be wrong and don't want to be responsible for yourself and your threats?

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it would just lead up to a major &#33;@#&#036;storm, that of which your post is a pretty good representation of so thank you for that.

I threatened no one about pushing my buttons. If you were a longterm poster here you would know my past in that I love it when people push my buttons but there are some good folks in Citadel that I like and thus there is no point in bringing such things into the discussion. In the end you guys can do what you like with your bloc but when your alliance says it is either us or them then some folks might not find that so honorable.

[Penguin]

Much ado about nothing if you ask me. Old Guard has already been emptied of the vast majority of their recognizable figures. I gathered from Empress Theodora's post that inactivity has also become an issue for them. This leads me to believe, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that a sizable portion of the individual friendships that kept Citadel from dropping OG months ago were finally severed during the recent exodus. The interplay between political and personal relationships is a difficult one for many alliances, not just those in the Citadel. We should all be wary of letting personal ties delay a clean break when political forces are pulling us in opposite directions.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Penguin

[SoxNation]

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it would just lead up to a major &#33;@#&#036;storm, that of which your post is a pretty good representation of so thank you for that.

I threatened no one about pushing my buttons. If you were a longterm poster here you would know my past in that I love it when people push my buttons but there are some good folks in Citadel that I like and thus there is no point in bringing such things into the discussion. In the end you guys can do what you like with your bloc but when your alliance says it is either us or them then some folks might not find that so honorable.

Ah now I know what your bomb was. Interesting.

[Petrovich4]

Good luck Citadel - all the best!

...even to the Queen Pit Viper herself

(no, not you NCC!!)

[King Chill I]

It all boils down to old grudges that die hard, an extreme dislike in some quarters for the way Citadel does business, and of course the knowledge that obviously Citadel members paint a rosier picture of what goes on behind closed doors than what the reality of the situation actually is. On that last point I'll say that they are by no means alone in doing things like that, most major groups want to present that front of strong unity. I don't fault them for it and I don't think anyone else should either. The rest of what I said in my first line varies from individual to individual and there's no accounting for that.

I agree bkphysics, I personally don't see the big deal either. When the war started and OG was on a different side from the rest of Citadel it was pretty plain that they probably weren't long for the bloc. I remember saying to someone at the time that if they were voted out it wouldn't happen until well after they were out of the war, because that's just how Citadel operates. It also wouldn't be just because they honored their treaties in the proper order.

The side argument about other Citadel alliances accepting certain members of OG is rather silly as well in my estimation. If alliances are going to be judged on accepting people with checkered pasts, there are several I'd think of before I'd look at any Citadel alliance. Also, given that a certain alliance once went around cajoling and threatening other alliances not to accept me due to my past when I first returned openly, I personally find this sort of judgmentality quite distasteful.

I took some effort but I have to say this and bkphysics posts stand as a shining beacon of light and common sense in this thread.

[Eden Taylor]

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it would just lead up to a major &#33;@#&#036;storm, that of which your post is a pretty good representation of so thank you for that.

Please be fair, I was really just curious what you were talking about and upset you wouldn't tell me.

I threatened no one about pushing my buttons. If you were a longterm poster here you would know my past in that I love it when people push my buttons

Sorry, what I took to be veiled threats must have been a sincere attempt to simply inform us that you were close to the point of losing your cool. As for your reputation, please don't hold my post count over me as if I was completely unaware of the happenings of the world or the people who unfortunately inhabit it.

but there are some good folks in Citadel that I like and thus there is no point in bringing such things into the discussion. In the end you guys can do what you like with your bloc but when your alliance says it is either us or them then some folks might not find that so honorable.

In the end, I guess I would have to say that hypocrisy is so much fun to see in action that I think I just had an orgasm.

[hizzy]

Question, if I may. I will also apologize ahead of time if it has been asked but oh well;

The OP states one of the reasons for this expulsion is OG's ideals not being in sync with the rest of Citadel's, along with a question of OG'd priorities.

Now, I actually can't name a single person who is a member of OG except for Reyne, and apparently a week ago she joined Argent. This is mainly due to her being the front(wo)man and the public face of OG, but I think it's hard to say that most of OG's direction in the last little while wasn't due, in part, to her decisions and preferences.

So now, after she leaves, you guys expel OG?

This makes almost as much sense as declaring war on an alliance for the "crimes" of someone who's not in said alliance.

[Fallen Fool]

That, stranger, does only confirm how little you know about Citadel.

Where did I claim to be an expert on Citadel matters?

All I did was comment on how this action, in relation to the same tired !@#$%^&* propaganda line you've utilized over the past nine months, amuses me. A lot.

What amuses me is your fingerpointing "see, they are NOT SPECIAL!". Because it sounds like you are afraid anyone could believe we are 'special' when it comes to honor and honesty. And I wonder if that is just anger over the own incompetence to create something special or simple envy.

Fingerpointing? Hardly.

Simply a bemused observation about the reality of what the Citadel is based on their public actions, compared to the image its members attempt to project continuously in the most unbearably holier-than-thou way way imaginable.

Also your weak deflection concerning my "envy" and "incompetence" really did make me laugh out loud. So thank you for brightening my day with baseless nonsense.

Fortunately I know a lot more than you, and my knowledge about Citadel internals is based on witnessing discussions while yours is based on hearsay.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Or, you just had unreasonably high expectations. If some alliance in Frostbite started more or less doing the opposite of everyone else in Frostbite, and you had tried to work with them for months on end and it wasn't changing, at some point would you grow tired of their obstinence and kick them? Yes, yes you would.

Where have I commented on the likelihood or "inevitability" of Old Guards expulsion in this thread? Answer? Nowhere! You are simply attempting to falsely superimpose the words and beliefs of others into my simple statement of amusement.

Perhaps Pip dude it's time to take a step back and reread my posts before responding?

They then made the decision to do what is right instead of following paper

So your admitting that members of the Citadel do not hold any value in their treaties, and instead believes in picking and choosing which treaty obligation to fulfill based on what is subjectively "right" at any particular moment?

the knowledge that obviously Citadel members paint a rosier picture of what goes on behind closed doors than what the reality of the situation actually is. On that last point I'll say that they are by no means alone in doing things like that, most major groups want to present that front of strong unity. I don't fault them for it and I don't think anyone else should either.

Of course they do Sponge, and if this was any other bloc or group of alliances I wouldn't care in the slightest.

Sifting through countless posts over the past two years about how morally superior the Citadel is to us, however, has made me unwilling to let them slip through this little bit of moral hypocrisy scot-free.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[B_Edwa]

To those that wish us the best, Thank you.

To those that are uninformed or think that OG is only one person, think again.

To those that may think that we're the same alliance, Think again. We're not the same.... no way, no how.

I wish the rest of Citadel the best, may our paths peacefully pass each other in the future......

TIA of OG,

-B_Edwa

[threefingeredguy]

Question, if I may. I will also apologize ahead of time if it has been asked but oh well;

The OP states one of the reasons for this expulsion is OG's ideals not being in sync with the rest of Citadel's, along with a question of OG'd priorities.

Now, I actually can't name a single person who is a member of OG except for Reyne, and apparently a week ago she joined Argent. This is mainly due to her being the front(wo)man and the public face of OG, but I think it's hard to say that most of OG's direction in the last little while wasn't due, in part, to her decisions and preferences.

So now, after she leaves, you guys expel OG?

This makes almost as much sense as declaring war on an alliance for the "crimes" of someone who's not in said alliance.

This is my personal opinion:

There's no denying that Reyne was in control of the alliance. However, OG very specifically told us that they were a democratic alliance who just voted "yes" on whatever Reyne told them to do. This is a liability in many ways to both OG and the Citadel. At the time of this expulsion/removal, I do not have any level of trust in their decision making abilities. Of course this can change, especially if I see more member interaction on the Citadel boards. The members are being held responsible for repeatedly and blindly supporting the government policies that brought this about.

I'm also of the opinion that Reyne and co. left OG because they knew this was coming. There were rumblings before it happened, like anything in CN. I think she didn't want to go down with the ship and left. I think she also hoped that her leaving would stall or stop the expulsion process, which is silly because it doesn't address the problems Citadel has with the rest of OG.

I hope that helps answer your question. Please keep in mind I'm not out there to hurt anyone's feelings as I am a hippie and hurting people's feelings makes me feel bad. Feel free to hurt my feelings though, I don't mind.

Edited June 25, 2009 by threefingeredguy