Penguin

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1303246895' post='2693895'] No. Please re-read what Dave said or come chat with one of the fine people of Thriller [/quote] I assumed it was a clear no when I first read it, but then I sifted through the comments and decided a clarification was prudent. Thanks for providing one. Additional clarification from Thriller or Dave is not necessary.

[quote name='Dave93' timestamp='1303185965' post='2693178'] TIO will be protecting the Thriller AA from Tech Raiders until further notice. signed, Dave93 - Imperial High Commander [/quote] I tried to find a clarification to this answered somewhere, but failed. Does TIO plan to defend Thriller if they are attacked in defense (by which I mean defense with [i]or[/i] without a publicly recorded treaty) of AcTi?

I don't really understand where SOS Brigade got so many fans. They always seemed nice enough to me. Maybe someone can explain it to me over PM so as not to derail. Best of luck to all in any case.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1302575446' post='2689021'] Haven't you done enough to them? Are you TRYING to complete their destruction? They probably deserve the mercy kill at this point, anyways... [/quote] You Penguin or you Polar? If staying away from me is good for a friend then I have no problems keeping my distance.

Thanks for everything and take care, Ragnarok! I sincerely hope this helps you get where you want to go. I'd be lying if I said I didn't still hold some hope that we could make it there with you too one day.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302565499' post='2688877'] Hm, I think you are misreading something there, I have no problem with TOOL. Most of them have offered no evidence that they really mean it. Valhalla? Yes, they seem to be sincere. TPF? Maybe, although they lost so much power in Karma (directly and through loss of allies' strength) that it would be impossible to be oppressive any more so it's hard to tell. NpO? No, in Bipolar you showed that a glimpse of power is all it takes to betray a coalition, and this war that you'll send a spy into perceived hostile alliances if offered. NPO? Well, Doomhouse clearly didn't think so, and while I don't agree with attacking them, I do agree with that perception.[/quote] You say I'm the one misreading but then you go back to rattling off alliances again. Perhaps you didn't mean TOOL, but replace the alliance name and the rest of my point stands.

We still call people "Bankers" if they are willing to devote extra cash to our young ones. Of course, they still build up tech and warchests and fight, but it's not uncommon for someone who devotes more slots to aiding their alliance than doing tech deals to have lower tech supplies as a result (I know I do). Although the term used to mean something else entirely (i.e. nations that sat out of wars to serve as cash reserves), I don't think it's all that anachronistic for a recruiting alliance.

[quote name='Mirreille' timestamp='1302559325' post='2688791'] After reading the terms I'm left wondering if TOOL even did 26k tech damage to MK during the war. Getting paid for starting a war is a sure sign of a one-sided conflict & political arena. Nevertheless TOOL accepted these terms, so I am happy for them, and good look rebuilding. Especially Bama. [/quote] I don't think there's much doubt of that. Even the heaviest reps pale in comparison to the costs of extending a war to either side (except perhaps in the late, late stages). Many lose sight of the scales involved and emphasize the price of reparations over the vastness of the war damage. Perhaps it's because one is not often avoidable and the other more easily measured. Of course, the one who starts a war is necessarily more willing to shoulder those costs than the one who is dragged in reluctantly and tying up slots will probably hurt more than the actual numerical value further masking the actual price of these terms.

That is kind of like fighting fire with fire.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302556729' post='2688755'] I doubt they [i]want[/i] to learn. I'm fairly certain that they are specifically aiming to degrade the standards of this community. Just a feeling I get, mostly from their origins and their need to collect pubbie tears wherever they go. I won't celebrate the locust swarm as a new influx of life. [/quote] I can't speak for anyone else, but cynicism and negativity are more likely to drive me away than naivety ever could. It doesn't matter which "side" it comes from. Grit your teeth and smile if you have to.

Hmm, that doesn't seem to be called for either. Everyone starts out new and only through experience can they learn where they fit in. We all shoulder the burden of training future generations, and I'd hate to think anyone would want to discourage that for a little peace of mind. Young Goons, though I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, ignore this sentiment and keep searching for your own place in our little world.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302550243' post='2688673'] This isn't about people and their predecessors, this is about the [i]people[/i] now taking shots at 'our side' (Haflinger, Alterego, HoT, etc) who tied themselves into what they complain about now. I mean, there's really nothing to complain about in forcing a natural seller alliance to sell some tech. If those individuals want to come out and say they've changed, and they regret their past actions, then, eh, maybe they can be treated differently moving forward, but they still have no place to complain about others doing the same things they did in the past. And to be honest, the world is not in a state where it is easy to change at the moment. To change it, you need the support of a large power base, and most of the alliances that are worth including in that power base do not share a moral agenda. You might disagree since we were just at war, but generally VE does its part for that, with fair terms when we do go to war and making sure we have a good reason before doing so. We deposed the old hegemony in Karma, but it turns out that there aren't enough alliances who subscribe to a strong moral code to keep that spirit together. I fear we're getting off topic, though . TOOL was only ever a fringe member of the old hegemony grouping, and what we're talking about isn't that relevant to them. [/quote] Given the same evidence, I still don't reach the same conclusion you do. It seems you ought to be thrilled that so many of the alliances you defeated now take the mantle up themselves, even considering a sizable percentage of them are perhaps just saying it as propaganda and have not taken it to heart. That skepticism runs deeper than it needs, to the extent that you don't bother to name individuals but discount entire alliances over a checkered past and one or two outspoken members (recall that you called TOOL a hypocritical alliance, not Alterego a hypocritical poster). These reckless insults also strike at decent people with whom you might otherwise be able to forge lasting friendships and pass on some of your ideals like you once did to me. I don't mean to be hard you, Bob, but it upsets me to see you waste that potential when you could correct it by exercising just a little bit more care and showing just a hint more of the optimism you once had. The truth isn't that a power base can't exist to drive the world closer to your ideals, but that so many happily trade in their idealism for pragmatism. Perhaps not such a bad thing in general, but if everyone tries too hard to be pragmatic at once they might grow disillusioned like you and really start to believe that the world is static. [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1302552036' post='2688688'] Even if 3m/50 was the going rate (which it isn't), these are supposed to be reparations. The fact that they're actually [i]profitable[/i] for TOOL speaks volumes for "the new hegemony". Then again, 3m/150 deals would still have been, what, $500,000 profit from each deal? Give me a break. [/quote] They're only profitable if you limit yourself to scratching the surface of economics. TOOL has more than enough monetary supplies to rebuild themselves faster than they will with any rate of tech deals. In this day and age when most established alliances have an effectively limitless supply of cash, slot efficiency becomes the deciding factor. The payment will mitigate some of the costs, but the only way you could possibly conclude it will be [i]profitable[/i] for TOOL is if you take an extremely pessimistic view of their knowledge of economics. The optimist that I am, I do not.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302548924' post='2688667'] Do something about it It's a fact that the Orders, TPF, Valhalla etc were the core of the old hegemony. Yes, it's a long time ago. So what? Most of your side's propaganda merchants were allied to them back then, so it can't be a matter of principle. That has nothing to do with whether PB is a hegemony. Kindly don't derail another thread with that. [/quote] This upsets me to hear from you. The foundation of our friendship is that alliances can redeem themselves. That while you can't escape your past, your character is defined by how you act and not by how your predecessors acted. If you no longer think you can impact the world for the better, then what are you fighting for now?

I don't see where MK is trying to paint it as a favor to TOOL. It is what it is. Not the best end to a war and not the worst. Not a favor to TOOL and not an insurmountable obstacle.

[quote name='Sithis' timestamp='1302512825' post='2688463'] I'm sure when judgment day is nigh, and the Almighty looks upon MK after their demise and decides their fate, he will recall [b]this day[/b] as but one of many when the corrupt members of the Kingdom lusted after technology, forgoing their morals. And thus the prophet, HeroofTime55, has spoken. [/quote] Ignoring the silly stuff you added about morals, judgment, and fate the point is still fundamentally sound. If you reap the rewards of taking tech from the alliances you defeat you assume some risks as well. I would be shocked if anyone high up in MK disagreed with me. They're smart enough to understand what will likely happen to the tech they've taken if they ever lose a war badly enough, so they must think they have a pretty good hand of cards going forward. They probably do, too.