Reps for IRON, NPO, Echelon, and TPF

[AirMe]

Depicting one excerpt is bad, because sometimes excerpt A and excerpt B equals excerpt C. It wasn't my main argument.

I wasn't trying to discredit your whole argument. I literally was saying that all alliances have good people in them and that shouldn't be used as a point when arguing against reps.

[Fort Pitt]

<snip>

or maybe im using you

it just seems like most Hegemony are just fighting because they wanna save their PR

[Archon]

Depicting one excerpt is bad, because sometimes excerpt A and excerpt B equals excerpt C. It wasn't my main argument.

@Fort Pitt:

Those claiming IRON used the hegemony, we can let these accusations fly countlessly with everyone. Hell, maybe MK is using Grämlins, or better yet WE are using MK (For the record, never). Or maybe STA IS USING MK and POLARIS FOR SELF-GAIN. Or maybe TDT is using their allies to cover themselves..

Point is, many do not like the NPO for obvious reasons, their diplomacy and ruthlessness got a hold of them because when you 'die in this game', you're not gone forever, you come back stronger. There are always two sides, each one having its own supporters. IRON was unfortunately allied to an alliance which really never did anything except show its hand to them which created a bond. Whether they hold this treaty after the war is another subject as NPO has been screwing up with them lately, or have been. IRON could have obviously done some things better, but we ALL could have, we ALL make mistakes. IRON is NOT the alliance we should focus our primary attention on, whether YOU like them or not is pointless - they followed their treaties and came into play, something MANY of you have stressed for the pass year "we shouldn't punish those following treaties". Light reps are not 3 billion, it is a war. Man up and rebuild.

IRON threw in their lot with the NPO in the Second Great War, thus allowing the NPO to establish a foothold from which to create a global Hegemony which has only recently been torn down. A great many on both sides supported this endeavor at various points. IRON is the "focus" of this topic purely because of a post made by Bill n Ted in a foreign affairs missive from TOP. Overall, the topic has focused on most engaged alliances, though, so I don't think your post is entirely accurate. That said, IRON has fought by the side of the NPO in all major conflicts, and is a part of One Vision, the power block that claimed to share the same "One Vision" for the future of the Cyberverse. I would say that is a fairly strong support of the NPO across these past years.

Please note that this is a rush point, and I'm just putting it forth to show you the other side of the coin you're flipping. It's worth noting that IRON was one of the ones who canceled their treaty with the NPO, but then followed it anyway

[BamaBuc]

Seems you are talking to so many of the wrong ppl. If L_M, Methrage, ENI, WCR, Finsterbaby, peron, Shan, DrDan or Crymson comes in here and corrects me I'll humbly deal with egg in my face.

No, it would seem I'm talking to the right people. The 3b/50k figure that I cited as the revised demand is correct. Mr. Finster assures me that that is exactly what's on the table. As for mine and Feanor's earlier figures, it would seem that they were never actually demanded of IRON, merely discussed among those fighting IRON (Finster assures me that IRON never recieved these demands, but the fact that two TOP members claim they existed makes me think that they just got shot down before being proposed to IRON. My guess is that Citadel/MHA pressured you and Fark to reduce the reps, leading to the final 3b/500k figure.). Lee, if you guys had been rolled and given huge reps, I would somewhat understand. But you haven't.

-Bama

[Ejayrazz]

IRON threw in their lot with the NPO in the Second Great War, thus allowing the NPO to establish a foothold from which to create a global Hegemony which has only recently been torn down. A great many on both sides supported this endeavor at various points. IRON is the "focus" of this topic purely because of a post made by Bill n Ted in a foreign affairs missive from TOP. Overall, the topic has focused on most engaged alliances, though, so I don't think your post is entirely accurate. That said, IRON has fought by the side of the NPO in all major conflicts, and is a part of One Vision, the power block that claimed to share the same "One Vision" for the future of the Cyberverse. I would say that is a fairly strong support of the NPO across these past years.

Please note that this is a rush point, and I'm just putting it forth to show you the other side of the coin you're flipping. It's worth noting that IRON was one of the ones who canceled their treaty with the NPO, but then followed it anyway

Oh without a doubt, no problems with debating with me, actually I envy it. IRON cancellation was a terrible idea - you don't do that. Plain and simple, and though they *did* enter the war, that *individual* treaty was shattered. Their support for NPO was indeed support, but so wasn't your allies when everyone was against you - its not a reason to abandon an ally. I think this was the final straw between their relations, some may say "about time", but THEY had a friendship like STA and MK does. I think they can finally see, but I do NOT feel they should be savagely beaten to a pulp. We know what alliance truly deserves it, and quite frankly - GGA has done FAR worse. And many other NPO supporters.

[OverCaffeinated]

With regard to your first point, while it is true that it can be a harrowing and costly task to beat down such an opponent, the alliances of the Hegemony, specifically the New Pacific Order, have demonstrated that it can be done (see: VietFAN, Vox Resistance Movement) without great detriment to one's overall growth. As the upper (and even midrange) tiers of the alliance are out of reach of the nations being struck, vast amounts of aid can be funneled to lower level nations that are engaged in warfare.

The game has changed since then. With MP, WRC, HNMS, and billion dollar war chests its extreamly painful to beat down an alliance. FAN and most of VOX were not in that position.

[Archon]

Oh without a doubt, no problems with debating with me, actually I envy it. IRON cancellation was a terrible idea - you don't do that. Plain and simple, and though they *did* enter the war, that *individual* treaty was shattered. Their support for NPO was indeed support, but so wasn't your allies when everyone was against you - its not a reason to abandon an ally. I think this was the final straw between their relations, some may say "about time", but THEY had a friendship like STA and MK does. I think they can finally see, but I do NOT feel they should be savagely beaten to a pulp. We know what alliance truly deserves it, and quite frankly - GGA has done FAR worse. And many other NPO supporters.

I would argue that they, as a principle supporter of the NPO via One Vision, do indeed deserve it. I would also argue that others deserve it who "got away." However, as I was not directly engaged with those alliances, it's really not my place to posture. So I think we might have to either continue on the IRON vein or drop this altogether.

The game has changed since then. With MP, WRC, HNMS, and billion dollar war chests its extreamly painful to beat down an alliance. FAN and most of VOX were not in that position.

I quite agree that the game has changed since then. However, it is still extremely expensive to conduct such an operation for an extended period (nukes are expensive, wonder upkeep gets expensive, and so on), and so ultimately you would reach the same steady state. You also assume each nation would loyally continue on such a crusade, when there exists an easy out for them to take. Consider the NPO desertion rate (which would include nations with extensive war chests, as opposed to the ton of 1k NS nations with little to no warchests who joined the ranks to fill their places).

[bzelger]

GGA has done FAR worse. And many other NPO supporters.

Heh. This is part of the problem. Everyone has an alliance that they especially dislike, and object to them getting off easy, but when an alliance that they don't have a problem with gets harder terms they take umbrage because they don't have a personal dispute and hard terms in general are distasteful.

In general, I think it's best to err on the side of mercy.

[lebubu]

I love the irony of this.

I can't see it, perhaps you could help me?

[Sandwich Controversy]

I can't see it, perhaps you could help me?

MK was responsible for NpO being rolled, clearly.

[President Obama]

Alright, seems I am late to this topic, interesting read though.

IRON - White peace or minor reps in my opinion is all that is necessary. They have been very honorable in this war and have been great opponents.

And that's the only alliance I really care about their peace terms

Oh, and white peace for Echelon and TPF could work out fine as well. Ok, maybe just Echelon then.

[Gen Lee]

No, it would seem I'm talking to the right people. The 3b/50k figure that I cited as the revised demand is correct. Mr. Finster assures me that that is exactly what's on the table. As for mine and Feanor's earlier figures, it would seem that they were never actually demanded of IRON, merely discussed among those fighting IRON (Finster assures me that IRON never recieved these demands, but the fact that two TOP members claim they existed makes me think that they just got shot down before being proposed to IRON. My guess is that Citadel/MHA pressured you and Fark to reduce the reps, leading to the final 3b/500k figure.). Lee, if you guys had been rolled and given huge reps, I would somewhat understand. But you haven't.

-Bama

TOP was not involved with the discussion and brainstorming of IRON's terms so keep thinking those 2 are informed, you are sadly mistaken. Like I said ask L_M, WCR, ENI, Fireguy, Joe, hell ask me in a query so I can stop replying to each of your ill informed post.

The parties at war with IRON have worked together to get a number that everyone can get behind, that's how these things work. If you are patient you might even see the final product and then, maybe then, you can quit your !@#$%*ing.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Gen Lee

[potato]

I love the irony of this.

Out of curiosity, this is ironic why exactly?

[o ya baby]

IRON - Harsh

TPF - Harsh

NPO - Harsh

Echelon - Very light.

[mhawk]

TPF - medium to high unless they are judged to be too smashed to pay much

hahaha, the most likely outcome

[deathcat]

[quote name='Revelation' date='May 21 2009, 11:04 PM' post='1547471'

Trying to take out PC. So we have every right to hate TPF.

Rev... Please... get past the hate.. WE (TPF) don't have a prob with you guys.. but since you harp on this over and over and over and over... etc.. I would like to say TPF reps to PC will be me posting pics of my fantastic BBQ foods Of course most would say this is torture.. not reps..

Seriously.. WE don't hate you guys.. I'm sure you wish we did.. but that GA Koolaid is waaaaay too green to drink for us

oo/

[Gruthenia]

The game has changed since then. With MP, WRC, HNMS, and billion dollar war chests its extreamly painful to beat down an alliance. FAN and most of VOX were not in that position.

Billion dollar warchests are such a rarity that you really shouldn't mention it, and while MPs and WRCs are annoying, in the end they're only used to make life harder for lower ranking members - those nations that have them still get beaten down out of the important top ranks quickly. The infra of our small nations can be rebuilt easily, but those formerly large nations who are gradually wearing out their warchests will not be rebuilt so easily. It's painful, yes, but the defeated alliance refusing terms is cutting off its nose to spite its face ultimately. TPF, as an alliance with a good military reputation and good military wonder counts losing 50 members and having an ANS of 11k with neither statistic likely to go anywhere but down seems to support my argument.

[JayOvfEnnay]

and IRON took none of it.

Did I ever say that you did? I mentioned IRON because if you befriend the bully, help him beat some little kid up, but then claim moral high ground because you didn't take his lunch money it confuses me. =_=' Afterall this time you knew of the bad things NPO was doing and you often helped them. Thus, you shouldn't be exempt from moderate-harsh surrender terms.

[deathcat]

Not really no. There were indeed some offensive joke pictures involved and the nazi mudkips are true (old gift from a friend in NoR, had to do with a joke we had about nazi mudkips in their military or some such shenanigans).

I think there are others who you PZI'd but I cannot say for certain. The term was so common then I honestly stopped keeping track of it long before it happened to me.

Mhawk, I had to delete my nation and hide my identity. I'm sure you can understand why there would be some badblood on my end. My posts are more in concern to those claiming it never happened. I know you know what happened and I know that you do not support this anymore. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm not trying to make you seem evil. I will, however, call people out and provide evidence if I see them lying or saying something that isn't true through lack of knowledge. I openly admit that I am a bitter player and that I have more trouble than I should letting the past go, it is something I'm working on.

As I said with Valhalla, I hope that you guys truly have changed or are willing to not allow friends to get away with the things they used to do, whichever fits you best. After this war I will give you that benefit of the doubt, especially given the honor and courage you have shown. That does not mean I think you should get off scott-free but you shouldn't get hit too terribly hard (I actually wanted Valhalla to get hurt more than you guys, as I've said you helped TDSM8 on several occasions). Once this is over, I'll do my best to move past my feelings of you based on the past, is that fair?

I've only read to this point but to be fair.. I'm glad to hear your responses. Knowing more of what happened gives me a bit of a new perspective. I'm not going to apologize for the past, cause I wasn't here and have nothing to apologize for. Since we (Elysium members) came here, we have been slowly making changes in TPF. We didn't jump in and change everything to become Elysium as everyone would have kicked us out .. I'll say that I'm sorry for anyone that Has to destroy a nation to restart a new just in order to be here on Bob. If it's in war, fine.. but if it's for grudges.. thats petty. I prefer swift justice and move on.. I think we were moving well in that direction months ahead of the war. I hope your new home is to your liking and I hope you do move past the anger.. It will make you much Happier and your Blood Pressure to drop a few points

There are reasons to be wary of certain nation leaders to be tracked in game.. a history of repeated mistakes/action/aggressions can be a good reason to warrant IG/IC tracking.. Anything going OOC at this point.. well.. isn't healthy for anyone. TPF may have been many things to many people.. but we have evolved to be one of the better homes for nations. We are as much a family as ever and I hope that those (WvT) can move past this bitterness for our past as we have evolved and grown and matured. We all make mistakes.. I know I have but I have learned from them.

As for future conflicts go.. I say aggressors should have to pay reps if the attacks are unwarranted (I know this is a HUGE grey area) but anyone coming in on treaties should get white peace or terms that don't include payments (Decoms and such are actually a good way to say on upkeep costs )

Ok.. *DC steps off the soapbox*

Best of luck to all after this war is completed.

oo/

DC .. out

[Feanor Noldorin]

TOP was not involved with the discussion and brainstorming of IRON's terms so keep thinking those 2 are informed, you are sadly mistaken.

We (TOP) have never claimed to be apart of the on going discussions. This of course doesn't mean that we are completely clueless as to what is going on. Infact, random people who have no ties to this situation have some pretty fairly accurate information. So I don't see that it is any big astonishment that someone such as myself (a year's worth of service in TOP's Council) or Coursca (was once a long time member of IRON's Council) would have access to this information. Nevertheless, if I am wrong then I will apologize for it. Until then I stand by the information that I have heard from the very people you have said to go and ask.

The parties at war with IRON have worked together to get a number that everyone can get behind, that's how these things work. If you are patient you might even see the final product and then, maybe then, you can quit your !@#$%*ing.

I don't think anyone is $@#$%ing but your statement is good to hear. Hopefully people are now past the stage of coming to meetings unprepared and flip flopping on what they want.

[Khalai Protoss]

A very large amount of tech and cash. However, not so much that it is just ridiculous, and they'll never be able to pay it back. (Which would make Karma's actions just as unfair as past actions by the Hegemony)

[KingSuck]

IRON- White Peace

NPO- White Peace

Echelon- White Peace

TPF- White Peace

My reasoning is simple.

1- I like all those alliances.

2- They have sustained a ridiculous amount of damage. It's all very well saying 'MK had to pay 82k tech in reps' etc, but when did MK ever lose the 15 million or so NS that NPO/IRON have lost? (just using MK as it's the most common example ). I don't think people realise just how damaging this war has been for those aforementioned alliances. Seriously, just look at the alliance stats.

3- Reps/harsh terms at this point will only cause bitterness, if not amongst the aforementioned alliances; then definitely against their allies and friends.

4- Coming from an alliance who was given relatively light terms, it is very hard to hold any dislike for the alliances who dished them out.

On that point, 'Karma' has a chance to finally get rid of harsh peace terms. I for one would find it impossible to ever give harsh peace terms after the way my foes have treated my alliance, and I wager other alliances would feel the same way. If you inflict the terms that I've seen rumours of, I can guarantee it will come back to bite you in the butt. Every war (untill this war so far) the reps seem to get bigger, and everyone gets rolled eventually.

[Gen Lee]

We (TOP) have never claimed to be apart of the on going discussions. This of course doesn't mean that we are completely clueless as to what is going on. Infact, random people who have no ties to this situation have some pretty fairly accurate information. So I don't see that it is any big astonishment that someone such as myself (a year's worth of service in TOP's Council) or Coursca (was once a long time member of IRON's Council) would have access to this information. Nevertheless, if I am wrong then I will apologize for it. Until then I stand by the information that I have heard from the very people you have said to go and ask.

I don't think anyone is $@#$%ing but your statement is good to hear. Hopefully people are now past the stage of coming to meetings unprepared and flip flopping on what they want.

I never said you were involved, that was another ill informed assumption by Bama.

I'll be waiting for that apology.

[deathcat]

I'll remind you of Poison Clan and Atarax. All who left were to be attacked and their leaders were to be sentenced to PZI when they left (across rerolls, yes), and then the remaining TPF government went to hell in a handbasket trying to make sense of that. Now they have mhawk and that cool deathcat dude trying their damnedest to hold things together.

Man, I love the Vox Populi alliance history archives.

Wait?? I'm Cool??!?!?!

I'm not in Gov and really not that active anymore (GOT A JOB woot!) But thanks.. Since mhawk et al's arrival... we have been working tirelessly to ensure our members that want to participate, can.. At this point too.. we aren't having issues with PC (other than the silly war thing) and Man.. I don't miss all that land.. too much lawnmowing

oo/

[D34th]

I can't see it, perhaps you could help me?

MK was responsible for NpO being rolled, clearly.

Out of curiosity, this is ironic why exactly?

. Just because you have a different government, doesn't change past action. All must account for their actions, in the end. That, by the way, is part of the essence of Karma (just as an interesting aside)

If all must account for their actions, in the end and if nothing change past actions why Karma accepted ex-Q members in their coalition?

And Sandwich Controversy just because I quoted an MK member I'm not necessary talking about MK, you guys seen to forget that this is a OCC forum.