Reps for IRON, NPO, Echelon, and TPF

[BamaBuc]

I think the point that many, including myself are trying to make.....and at least for me failing to make.....Is that when people see Billion and more than 10k tech they flip out because those numbers seem high. What you need to take into account now is the size of the alliance and the resources they have at hand. For the people who are going to ask for reps in their surrender terms may ask for an amount that does seem high but step back and look at it objectively.

82k Tech is a major deal for a 150 man alliance where as it really is less of a big deal for a 600 man alliance

14k Tech is different for a 40 man alliance than it is for a 400 man alliance.

So, what I ask of you is before you go all JIHAD on reps, step back and look at them in relation to the alliance they will be coming from. I suspect then, when you look at the facts that some of the rumored reps going around aren't as bad as you think they are.

Also as a side note, I hope TPF gets pretty light terms. They have possibly been the best sports out of all the hegemony alliances, and Mhawk at least semi admits that in the past he has been wrong.

A billion and 10k tech? AirMe, with all due respect, are you aware of the terms IRON was offered?

I appreciate your sentiment regarding TPF, and I agree on the size of an alliance making a difference, but a billion and 10k tech is faaaaaar less than what has been demanded of IRON by certain ex-Hegemony alliances who took part in noCB and have never been wronged by the Hegemony.

-Bama

[bzelger]

A billion and 10k tech? AirMe, with all due respect, are you aware of the terms IRON was offered?

I appreciate your sentiment regarding TPF, and I agree on the size of an alliance making a difference, but a billion and 10k tech is faaaaaar less than what has been demanded of IRON by certain ex-Hegemony alliances who took part in noCB and have never been wronged by the Hegemony.

-Bama

I don't know what terms IRON have been offered. Care to specify?

[DrunkMonkey]

I still remember TPF hounding Atlantis and our allies for any reason to attack us. Good outstanding citizens these TPF members are.

yeah yeah, sins of the father, we get it. I'm going to remember this discussion and many others, so just on the off chance roles are reversed (inconceivable, I know). I can then say "This one time at band camp... I mean in a thread Chickenzilla and friends said some of our memebership who may or may not still be in the alliance, might have done something that would be later questionable and he used it to get massive reps on the same people who were guilty by association in the name of TPF while they were defending allies against Karma (Hope & Change TM)."

So then we can deciede your fate with the same level of clarity & forward thinking you & friends have used here. The good thing is when that times comes, there will be another role reversal you'll get to hold us responsible again, etc. Pretty much what I'm saying is ya'll have the choice to perpetuate the cycle or make a change and go a different direction. From the looks of it, perpetuating the cycle is winning over change.

[BamaBuc]

I don't know what terms IRON have been offered. Care to specify?

6b cash and 110k tech. After the beating they've taken. And it was not even demanded by alliances who have a legitimate claim to reps, but by ex-Hegemony alliances. Ridiculous.

-Bama

[Haflinger]

Should still make NPO come out of peace mode before considering reps. The rest of them should just be moderate-standardly harsh reps equal at least to the amount of NS lost.

The New Pacific Order has 54 nations over 25K nation strength that have been in peace mode since the start of the war.

When you consider how many nations over 25K they had before the war... well this does seem a bit like punishing the majority for the actions of the few, some of which were probably on vacation or in finals when the war began.

What is at most a few dozen infra-huggers should not condemn hundreds of nations to forever war.

What's more, for all those of you preaching about reps... the NPO currently has 11 nations over 5K infra in war mode. If you want to get reps postwar, you'd better hope that they manage to keep some of that infra, or the only reps you'll ever see will be in the form of tech deals.

[Gen Lee]

6b cash and 110k tech. After the beating they've taken. And it was not even demanded by alliances who have a legitimate claim to reps, but by ex-Hegemony alliances. Ridiculous.

-Bama

You need better sources buddy, even IRON would tell you that you are looking foolish right now.

[Port Royale]

You can't get lighter than 0 reps. Well... I guess you could if the victors paid reps to the defeated.

thats what MK did to us in the UBD

[kingzog]

yeah yeah, sins of the father, we get it. I'm going to remember this discussion and many others, so just on the off chance roles are reversed (inconceivable, I know). I can then say "This one time at band camp... I mean in a thread Chickenzilla and friends said some of our memebership who may or may not still be in the alliance, might have done something that would be later questionable and he used it to get massive reps on the same people who were guilty by association in the name of TPF while they were defending allies against Karma (Hope & Change TM)."

So then we can deciede your fate with the same level of clarity & forward thinking you & friends have used here. The good thing is when that times comes, there will be another role reversal you'll get to hold us responsible again, etc. Pretty much what I'm saying is ya'll have the choice to perpetuate the cycle or make a change and go a different direction. From the looks of it, perpetuating the cycle is winning over change.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but....

Please note that most of the alliances involved on your side have had remarkably light reps (if any at all) dictated by their surrender terms.

It is your alliance's current leadership who have decided to stick it out with the NPO until the bitter end. Meanwhile, the NPO cowers in peace mode while your alliance is destroyed. Great friends you've got there.

Furthermore, it is your alliance's current leadership that is at least partly responsible for the initial attack that sparked this war. You will recall that mhawk was very much involved in the phony talks with OV that led up to this.

One doesn't have to go all the way back to "band camp" or point at former members to find responsibility here.

[Feanor Noldorin]

You need better sources buddy, even IRON would tell you that you are looking foolish right now.

How's 9bil and 100k tech sound?

[Gen Lee]

How's 9bil and 100k tech sound?

You sound pretty foolish, I just laid that out, didn't I.

[Rush Sykes]

Just my opinion on the matter...but....

I feel the reps for the 4 remaining, should be rather large all the way around. Those who want to point out that actions that many Karma alliances were once solid hegemony alliances, to them I say this : Actions matter. Is there anyone who thinks this war would not have turned out totally different had Fark, MHA, GRE, TOP, Sparta, and FOK all took the hegemony side? In my eyes, these alliances stood up and said "Enough". They could have easily stayed with the other side and been involved in a curbstomp the other way. They did not. The remaining alliances, all had the same opportunity to look at the whole situation as it unfolded over the past few months and say "You know what, I cant believe we were a part of this." They, instead, remained loyal to the very criminal that has plagued this planet with unabashed bullying, underhandedness, maniuplation, and herding "friends" to the slaughterhouse. They assisted them in assuming more control over the game than even Admin had. The promoted, threatened, and enacted PZI on people, and alliances, thereby attempting to only let those they deemed fit to play this game, play this game. All the while, their closest allies stood by and did nothing. The TOP's. Gremilins, Spartas, FOKs, MHAs and Farks of the world, had no way to win in this war. If they did the right thing, as they did, and assisted in the dismantling of these self-deified imperialists, they would forever be the rallying cry of the other side..."They did what we did, why do they get to survive." If they stay on the other side, they have to again look at themselves in the mirror and decide if they like enabling the criminal practices of the other side. The 2 sides are completely and totally different. One side could only lose, the other side could not win. What a paradox for them. If karma, as a spiritual entity is real, they may someday pay for their part in those crimes. However, they have paid for their crimes in my eyes, by, in the end, doing what is right, and not what is easy. So, to this end, I say, the reps for all those remaining on the other side, should be steep for all involved. Good people in each alliance? Sure. But you lose the identity of being good INDIVIDUALS when you run with a pack that commits atrocity after atrocity.

[BamaBuc]

You need better sources buddy, even IRON would tell you that you are looking foolish right now.

Apologies. I hear that the figure was signficantly lowered from that amount. From what I hear, it's now 3b and 50k. This was due to one of the two alliances demanding those reps largely backing off when people on both sides expressed their outrage in private. But the other did not, last I heard. A certain ex-Hegemony alliance, as a matter of fact. After the beating IRON has taken, I have no idea how you can justify these reps going to an alliance that never got rolled and never had to pay reps to IRON or anyone else.

-Bama

[Gen Lee]

Apologies. I hear that the figure was signficantly lowered from that amount. From what I hear, it's now 3b and 50k. This was due to one of the two alliances demanding those reps largely backing off when people on both sides expressed their outrage in private. But the other did not, last I heard. A certain ex-Hegemony alliance, as a matter of fact. After the beating IRON has taken, I have no idea how you can justify these reps going to an alliance that never got rolled and never had to pay reps to IRON or anyone else.

-Bama

Bama, I must respectfully say you are still pretty far off.

If you'd like to chat in rok-Tool chan I can clear that up.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Gen Lee

[Coursca]

You need better sources buddy, even IRON would tell you that you are looking foolish right now.

It was only 100k tech and $9bn, Bama, not 110k tech. That was the initial offer.

[shahenshah]

I think some alliances on our side are just as guilty in certain actions. On the bad side, it means they escape punishment being dealt out to their former comrades. On the plus side, we might not have been able to win this war without their help. I think the latter over-rides the former.

Thank you for admitting we're just as guilty as some on your side. And thank you for being open about the fact you would not be able to win the war without them. I found it shocking that TOP, Kronos et al were being trolled and not given the respect they deserve from your side.

It is sad tho, certain other alliances have 'clean sheets' and because we honored treaties knowing full well what were the odds. We did not agree with how this war was started nor I feel that disagreement was handled well. Nonetheless, we're here via treaty obligations, I am sure you would not advocate to an alliance to not follow up the treaty obligations.

AirMe Posted Today, 08:25 PM

I think the point that many, including myself are trying to make.....and at least for me failing to make.....Is that when people see Billion and more than 10k tech they flip out because those numbers seem high. What you need to take into account now is the size of the alliance and the resources they have at hand. For the people who are going to ask for reps in their surrender terms may ask for an amount that does seem high but step back and look at it objectively.

82k Tech is a major deal for a 150 man alliance where as it really is less of a big deal for a 600 man alliance

14k Tech is different for a 40 man alliance than it is for a 400 man alliance.

Also as a side note, I hope TPF gets pretty light terms. They have possibly been the best sports out of all the hegemony alliances, and Mhawk at least semi admits that in the past he has been wrong.

Ok, you want relativity...your own post...

And we did both with about 150 members....not 600.

EDIT:

<MagicalTrevor> MK paying 800mil with 150members, was 5.3mil each

<MagicalTrevor> IRON paying 3bil with 600 members, is 5mil each

So a marginal difference of .3...thats relativity for you.

Anyway In light of your own stance of past few months..the terms are extremely harsh...unless you suddenly had a twist of fate and think MK terms were not as bad as people think and you guys were just bluffing about it. I know you're a man of character so those twists of fate are really not applicable here. And how is RoK setting MK as standard if they literally fought right beside IRON.

1. IRON - IRON has made poor choices with regard to friends, and has done nothing (to my knowledge) when said friends used their power to bully, extort and disband alliances.

I think Haflinger has answered that.

It will be foolish for us to expect white peace...but going to the other extreme of the spectrum and that being defended by MK least of all and that also to an alliance that took no terms in MK/NpO wars...the change is most visible.

Edited May 22, 2009 by shahenshah

[Feanor Noldorin]

You sound pretty foolish, I just laid that out, didn't I.

So those figures are completely fabricated and were never, at any point, part of your demands?

[greatmagnus]

Amazed no one has done it yet.

100 MILLION DOLLARS

Edited May 22, 2009 by greatmagnus

[Archon]

Well, this thread turned out exactly as expected. Hegemony loyalists and members are going to run the same propaganda talking points (ZOMG, KARMA=HEGEMONY IF WE GET BIG REPS, big reps are mean spirited, if you give us big reps you will also do x y and z, and of course my personal favorite "we've done nothing to deserve that level of reparations"). Those members of Karma who are not Hegemony loyalists (the distribution should be fairly obvious to see) are going to advocate large reparations for one of three reasons: Hindering the regrowth of the enemy, assisting in the regrowth of their own alliance, or vengeance. Of course, any mixture of those reasons is also a possible motivation.

So we can sit here and let the Hegemony attempt to guilt trip Karma into giving them lighter terms with any number of hypocritical and ignorant arguments (such as claiming reparations are in violation of what Karma stands for, despite there never having been any formalized statement of precisely what Karma stands for), or you can let the alliances involved set the numbers and you either take them or die. But please, please please, don't go on about fair. Because what you should remember about MK's reparations that everyone loves to cite is this: The justification was "you should be lucky you're getting terms at all." And while I've seen a number of Hegemony alliances valiantly offer to fight to the bitter end, I don't recall seeing any Karma alliance threaten disbandment.

You lost, Hegemony. IRON, TPF, NPO, and the rest of you. You lost very, very badly. And while I'm sure you'll get a number of individuals to fluster and bluster if you get terms that you think are unfair (and take that as you will - I've seen a lot math done in this thread to attempt to quantify "fair"), ultimately you're either going to accept terms or you're going to continue losing. And since the best tactical purpose toward reparations is to hinder the enemy's ability to regrow, by refusing to accept terms you're just continuing to hinder your ability to regrow by allowing yourself to be blown up some more, so I doubt those Karma alliances waiting on you really mind all that much.

If you didn't want to be in this position, there were a million times you could have done something to stop any of the many abhorrent deeds committed by the Hegemony as a collective group. That's what's great about a collective security agreement. But you never did.

[Gen Lee]

It was only 100k tech and $9bn, Bama, not 110k tech. That was the initial offer.

So those figures are completely fabricated and were never, at any point, part of your demands?

I've never heard of or been a part of any type of offer that you are mentioning above.

Peron or Shan can correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT* added Feanor's comment.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Gen Lee

[Rush Sykes]

Well, this thread turned out exactly as expected. Hegemony loyalists and members are going to run the same propaganda talking points (ZOMG, KARMA=HEGEMONY IF WE GET BIG REPS, big reps are mean spirited, if you give us big reps you will also do x y and z, and of course my personal favorite "we've done nothing to deserve that level of reparations"). Those members of Karma who are not Hegemony loyalists (the distribution should be fairly obvious to see) are going to advocate large reparations for one of three reasons: Hindering the regrowth of the enemy, assisting in the regrowth of their own alliance, or vengeance. Of course, any mixture of those reasons is also a possible motivation.

So we can sit here and let the Hegemony attempt to guilt trip Karma into giving them lighter terms with any number of hypocritical and ignorant arguments (such as claiming reparations are in violation of what Karma stands for, despite there never having been any formalized statement of precisely what Karma stands for), or you can let the alliances involved set the numbers and you either take them or die. But please, please please, don't go on about fair. Because what you should remember about MK's reparations that everyone loves to cite is this: The justification was "you should be lucky you're getting terms at all." And while I've seen a number of Hegemony alliances valiantly offer to fight to the bitter end, I don't recall seeing any Karma alliance threaten disbandment.

You lost, Hegemony. IRON, TPF, NPO, and the rest of you. You lost very, very badly. And while I'm sure you'll get a number of individuals to fluster and bluster if you get terms that you think are unfair (and take that as you will - I've seen a lot math done in this thread to attempt to quantify "fair"), ultimately you're either going to accept terms or you're going to continue losing. And since the best tactical purpose toward reparations is to hinder the enemy's ability to regrow, by refusing to accept terms you're just continuing to hinder your ability to regrow by allowing yourself to be blown up some more, so I doubt those Karma alliances waiting on you really mind all that much.

If you didn't want to be in this position, there were a million times you could have done something to stop any of the many abhorrent deeds committed by the Hegemony as a collective group. That's what's great about a collective security agreement. But you never did.

I dont like Archon. He says the same thing I say, but it is 1 million times more eloquent and easier to read. I demand that either you stop making sense, or pay me reps for my college tuition, which was obviously wasted. Anyways, READ what this man says, he is most wise.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Rush Sykes

[Archon]

I dont like AirMe. He says the same thing I say, but it is 1 million times more eloquent and easier to read. I demand that either you stop making sense, or pay me reps for my college tuition, which was obviously wasted. Anyways, READ what this man says, he is most wise.

Thanks, except I'm Archon, not AirMe.

[shahenshah]

It was only 100k tech and $9bn, Bama, not 110k tech. That was the initial offer.

I heard there were some outrageous and ridiculous terms that were (still are? not sure) demanded apart from just the one people are talking about.

Also, another point in general, one can demand 1 trillion initially, and then lower it to 20bn and say 'whoa, we've reduced so much, now accept the terms!'

Edited May 22, 2009 by shahenshah

[greatmagnus]

If by AirMe you mean Archon

[Rush Sykes]

Thanks, except I'm Archon, not AirMe.

GAH...fixed...I was just reading AirMe in another thread and got confused. I blame that solely on Londos stench. He really needs to shower.

[Rush Sykes]

If by AirMe you mean Archon

Me buries head in the sand!