Reps for IRON, NPO, Echelon, and TPF

[Master Hakai]

If the members of Karma want the stuff back they've forked over to these alliances down through the years, then the reps should be ridiculously high.

[AirMe]

Viking's alliance leader, same subject.

Now, I am not Xiphosis fan, but no where in that post does he mention disbanding NPO. Or even calling for NPO's disbandment. He is talking about the grip they had on the game. Seriously Halfinger, if you think that's what he means you've been smoking something good.

[Delta1212]

Viking's alliance leader, same subject.

That certainly is Xiphosis, but it has nothing to do with disbandment at all. Unless you consider "NPO's Hegemony has fallen and will never be allowed to reform" to mean "rawr disband NPO"

Third time's the charm?

[Archon]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?a...amp;pid=1489157

Sorry, but no.

A display of massive ignorance on the part of someone who is supposed to be alliance government, quoting a random member and taking it to be the gospel of the alliance. Somewhat terrifying, but we'll allow it.

Viking's alliance leader, same subject.

A completely different opinion altogether, as Xiphosis merely asserts that he would not stand for the NPO constructing another Global Hegemony. Unless you consider the Hegemony a single alliance (), I don't think you can construe this as threatening disbandment. I mean, no one could intelligently attempt to do this...

That's a matter of interpretation. Given his member's opinion on the subject, I'm going to go with the idea that he's agreeing with his member's completely compatible views there, particularly given his alliance's history of disbanding enemy alliances.

...but then again, someone can try to without any sense of logic altogether. You basically just stood there and said "I'm going to interpret this how i want, disregarding all logic and even the words of the post altogether, so that it can fit my crackpot assertions! Hail!"

Then again, you're just satisfying the first line or two of my main post in this topic, so why should anyone be surprised? (As proof, consider the last line of the third post quoted here).

[OverCaffeinated]

...

You lost, Hegemony. IRON, TPF, NPO, and the rest of you. You lost very, very badly. And while I'm sure you'll get a number of individuals to fluster and bluster if you get terms that you think are unfair (and take that as you will - I've seen a lot math done in this thread to attempt to quantify "fair"), ultimately you're either going to accept terms or you're going to continue losing. And since the best tactical purpose toward reparations is to hinder the enemy's ability to regrow, by refusing to accept terms you're just continuing to hinder your ability to regrow by allowing yourself to be blown up some more, so I doubt those Karma alliances waiting on you really mind all that much.

...

You are 100% correct. Reps have nothing to do with punishment for past deeds or lack there of. Reps are all about hindering your enemy’s ability to regrow. And they can be quite effective at it, not just by the amount of the reps, but also by using up their aid slots of a significant period of time.

But there are two good reasons why an alliance would want to offer white peace or a reasonable amount of reps.

The first is that in some instances continued war causes damage not just to the losers but also to the victors and it hinders their ability to grow. From the defenders perspective, there is a lot of satisfaction in knowing that if you’re going down, your taking your attackers with you. Especially when the alliance gets beat down low enough that they have little left to lose but still have money to spend. It’s painful to beat down an alliance with large war chests and lots of Manhattan Projects. It’s in both the winners and losers best interest to seek peace in this case.

The second is that a victorious alliance may see some strategic advantage at letting the loser survive intact. If there is any lesson to be learned from the NPOs mistakes leading to this war, it’s that leaving a string of defeated enemies behind you is eventually going to bite you in the rear. Stretching a hand out and helping up the loser is one of the best ways to prevent animosity from building up. I do have to admit there is a lot of respect from IRON members towards MHA and particularly the Gramlins compared to our feeling with our other opponents despite those two alliances doing the majority of the beat down on us. And that has a lot to do with the respect they have shown us throughout the war and now during peace discussions.

[thedestro]

TPF and NPO:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=16985

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32762

NPO:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32875

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=17871

Considering the horrible, horrible terms before, they really deserve to feel it this time.

[hans zonmyrod]

As for NPO's top nations being hippy, I don't remember the exact numbers or percentages, but I was with Polaris when they got rolled and one of the terms was that the top (40) nations had to pay (75%) of the reps. This would be great for the cowards in NPO who have been in peace mode from day 1. The bracketed numbers may be wrong, but somebody will correct me if they are wrong.

[Gen Lee]

I am not talking about Citadel. If you want to know who I AM talking about, take a gander at who's getting all defensive when I and a TOP member (those guys are so Hegemony-biased, right?) brought up reparations that have been demanded of IRON.

Lee, you are dodging the question. I don't care if you personally took part in this. Did you know about it, or not? Because it is most definitely true, although as Coursca and Feanor pointed out, the initial number was 9b 100k, not 6b 10k. My apologies for that.

-Bama

Can I make it any clearer Bama. You are wrong.

I received a PM from IRON govt minutes after your ridiculous assertion telling me he was looking for you on IRC to educate you, I guess he hasn't found you yet.

EDIT* added

I've never heard of or been a part of any type of offer that you are mentioning above.

Peron or Shan can correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT* added Feanor's comment.

got it?

Edited May 22, 2009 by Gen Lee

[BamaBuc]

Bama, I must respectfully say you are still pretty far off.

If you'd like to chat in rok-Tool chan I can clear that up.

Almost missed this... I'm a member of TPF and as such would be rather out of place in that channel.

-Bama

[BamaBuc]

Can I make it any clearer Bama. You are wrong.

I received a PM from IRON govt minutes after your ridiculous assertion telling me he was looking for you on IRC to educate you, I guess he hasn't found you yet.

I suppose I'll go talk to them then. But I don't see how so many people could be wrong on this. Nevertheless, I will go talk to them.

-Bama

[Gen Lee]

Almost missed this... I'm a member of TPF and as such would be rather out of place in that channel.

-Bama

Didn't realize that.

[SpacingOutMan]

I would like to see them get hammered (by hammered I mean get piss drunk and then have to pay off a massive fine), but I can already foresee moderate reparations for IRON and same for the others.

[Gen Lee]

I suppose I'll go talk to them then. But I don't see how so many people could be wrong on this. Nevertheless, I will go talk to them.

-Bama

Seems you are talking to so many of the wrong ppl. If L_M, Methrage, ENI, WCR, Finsterbaby, peron, Shan, DrDan or Crymson comes in here and corrects me I'll humbly deal with egg in my face.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Gen Lee

[Ejayrazz]

Still think IRON shouldn't get this retribution some of you after, they have good people in their alliance. Some of you continuously proclaim "Those who follow treaties shouldn't be extorted, etc" yet this is exactly what people wish to do. "They supported NPO"..Well, NPO supported GOONS, \m/, FAN, etc (Until they were all betrayed, haha). The point is, IRON shouldn't be persecuted for supporting their allies in public, we ALL do it even when we disagree..if you don't, you're doing it wrong. If there was no NPO, IRON wouldn't be this 'terribly horrid alliance' - they supported their allies like they had to and quite frankly NPO has never done anything to piss IRON off (Though, their are many things privately done which is a different story), but without IRON, NPO STILL would be the way they are.

Some can argue this but many can agree them as a foundation is not as terrible as some of you believe it to be.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Gork]

The solution here is obviously a monthly tax on existence, say 100 million or so. That, or somewhat moderate-heavy reps and a small... enticement, let's call it, for the doves to leave their nest.

[Fort Pitt]

Still think IRON shouldn't get this retribution some of you after, they have good people in their alliance. Some of you continuously proclaim "Those who follow treaties shouldn't be extorted, etc" yet this is exactly what people wish to do. "They supported NPO"..Well, NPO supported GOONS, \m/, FAN, etc (Until they were all betrayed, haha). The point is, IRON shouldn't be persecuted for supporting their allies in public, we ALL do it even when we disagree..if you don't, you're doing it wrong. If there was no NPO, IRON wouldn't be this 'terribly horrid alliance' - they supported their allies like they had to and quite frankly NPO has never done anything to piss IRON off (Though, their are many things privately done which is a different story), but without IRON, NPO STILL would be the way they are.

Some can argue this but many can agree them as a foundation is not as terribly some of you believe it to be.

id actually argue that IRON's only reason for supporting NPO along with most of Hegemony is to retain a rep so when the war is over and they lose, people will still ally with them

[JoshuaR]

I don't understand the calls for blood against IRON when GGA, OG, MCXA, etc. got off with nothing. What has IRON done that is any worse?

And I still don't understand how you can single out particular alliances for the crime of not being a good samaritan (OOC see Seinfeld final episode, go to jail for just watching robbery and not helping), yet completely turn a blind eye toward those just as guilty. TORN, with NPO, started this entire war. They got off with nothing because at the time, all of you thought the war would be more even and were happy to get anyone out of the way as quickly as possible.

MHA has an eternal (basically) treaty with the NPO. They drafted this thing well after knowing NPO's character and past exploits. Shouldn't they be just as culpable for allying themselves to the evil scourge of planet bob? How are they so wonderful when the most they've done to stop NPO was not enter this particular war against them?

Sparta has stood by until now.

TOP didn't even cancel the treaty until, what, yesterday?

I could go on and on. And I am a big fan of many of the alliances I mentioned above!

Punish IRON, TPF, and NPO individually according to whatever crimes they have committed, not for who they've been associated with, unless you punish everyone who's been associating with those same people, and you haven't. I think it's a wonderful idea to make these alliances pay back the reps they've received. Perhaps double, triple? Still pretty fair, no?

[AirMe]

Still think IRON shouldn't get this retribution some of you after, they have good people in their alliance......

Every alliance has good people in it. This should not be an argument against reparations.

[Wes Walz Pants]

As a former government member who has made a point in the past not to support rep payments from war, I find the bitter hatred and hypocrisy from Karma in this thread shocking. It's a shame there aren't more individuals such as the esteemed Ejayrazz making their voices heard, and really kudos to those few fine individuals out there.

[Kilkenny]

Still think IRON shouldn't get this retribution some of you after, they have good people in their alliance. Some of you continuously proclaim "Those who follow treaties shouldn't be extorted, etc" yet this is exactly what people wish to do. "They supported NPO"..Well, NPO supported GOONS, \m/, FAN, etc (Until they were all betrayed, haha). The point is, IRON shouldn't be persecuted for supporting their allies in public, we ALL do it even when we disagree..if you don't, you're doing it wrong. If there was no NPO, IRON wouldn't be this 'terribly horrid alliance' - they supported their allies like they had to and quite frankly NPO has never done anything to piss IRON off (Though, their are many things privately done which is a different story), but without IRON, NPO STILL would be the way they are.

Some can argue this but many can agree them as a foundation is not as terrible as some of you believe it to be.

Are you trying to make me like you?!!?!

/hopes he doesn't get in trouble for that with the ebil forces.

[Archon]

You are 100% correct. Reps have nothing to do with punishment for past deeds or lack there of. Reps are all about hindering your enemy’s ability to regrow. And they can be quite effective at it, not just by the amount of the reps, but also by using up their aid slots of a significant period of time.

But there are two good reasons why an alliance would want to offer white peace or a reasonable amount of reps.

The first is that in some instances continued war causes damage not just to the losers but also to the victors and it hinders their ability to grow. From the defenders perspective, there is a lot of satisfaction in knowing that if you’re going down, your taking your attackers with you. Especially when the alliance gets beat down low enough that they have little left to lose but still have money to spend. It’s painful to beat down an alliance with large war chests and lots of Manhattan Projects. It’s in both the winners and losers best interest to seek peace in this case.

The second is that a victorious alliance may see some strategic advantage at letting the loser survive intact. If there is any lesson to be learned from the NPOs mistakes leading to this war, it’s that leaving a string of defeated enemies behind you is eventually going to bite you in the rear. Stretching a hand out and helping up the loser is one of the best ways to prevent animosity from building up. I do have to admit there is a lot of respect from IRON members towards MHA and particularly the Gramlins compared to our feeling with our other opponents despite those two alliances doing the majority of the beat down on us. And that has a lot to do with the respect they have shown us throughout the war and now during peace discussions.

These are two very well stated points. One is easily addressed, the second less so.

With regard to your first point, while it is true that it can be a harrowing and costly task to beat down such an opponent, the alliances of the Hegemony, specifically the New Pacific Order, have demonstrated that it can be done (see: VietFAN, Vox Resistance Movement) without great detriment to one's overall growth. As the upper (and even midrange) tiers of the alliance are out of reach of the nations being struck, vast amounts of aid can be funneled to lower level nations that are engaged in warfare.

The second point is a more interesting one, and worth more thought than I have given it now in the interest of a timely reply. One could argue that such a tactic has already been executed on the majority of alliances on the losing side, which is an unprecedented show of mercy in terms of a global war. Just peruse the Wiki to see that this is indeed the case. It has also set out high expectations, and a PR talking point for the remaining alliances to use in an attempt to cajole more merciful terms out of their opponents. I think you could argue this either way, with respect to the remaining alliances. On the one hand, you can recognize that they could be valuable allies in the future and thus seek to mitigate their desire for revenge by showing them kindness now. On the other hand, you can argue that past history shows it would be wise to keep them as far down as you can, and keep them from ever striking back through a combination of gamesmanship and in-game tactics. I would personally think that the former is a show of weakness and fear, and would only encourage those you let off lightly to strike back. But that is my own belief, and nothing more. I can very clearly see the other side of the coin, and admit I could be swayed to that side of thinking.

[Delta1212]

Hypocrisy!

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Delta1212

[Froggor]

Echelon - White Peace

IRON - Very light similer to what GGA or MCXA got

TPF - medium to high unless they are judged to be too smashed to pay much

NPO - Very high, They have plenty of people hiding in Peace mode and are the chief criminals here. They should be forced to pay tons.

[Ejayrazz]

Every alliance has good people in it. This should not be an argument against reparations.

Depicting one excerpt is bad, because sometimes excerpt A and excerpt B equals excerpt C. It wasn't my main argument.

@Fort Pitt:

Those claiming IRON used the hegemony, we can let these accusations fly countlessly with everyone. Hell, maybe MK is using Grämlins, or better yet WE are using MK (For the record, never). Or maybe STA IS USING MK and POLARIS FOR SELF-GAIN. Or maybe TDT is using their allies to cover themselves..

Point is, many do not like the NPO for obvious reasons, their diplomacy and ruthlessness got a hold of them because when you 'die in this game', you're not gone forever, you come back stronger. There are always two sides, each one having its own supporters. IRON was unfortunately allied to an alliance which really never did anything except show its hand to them which created a bond. Whether they hold this treaty after the war is another subject as NPO has been screwing up with them lately, or have been. IRON could have obviously done some things better, but we ALL could have, we ALL make mistakes. IRON is NOT the alliance we should focus our primary attention on, whether YOU like them or not is pointless - they followed their treaties and came into play, something MANY of you have stressed for the pass year "we shouldn't punish those following treaties". Light reps are not 3 billion, it is a war. Man up and rebuild.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Archon]

As a former government member who has made a point in the past not to support rep payments from war, I find the bitter hatred and hypocrisy from Karma in this thread shocking. It's a shame there aren't more individuals such as the esteemed Ejayrazz making their voices heard, and really kudos to those few fine individuals out there.

I do not believe your vitriolic response is entirely fair or accurate. Granted, there has been an abuse of personal anecdote to legitimize arguments, but that has been exploited on both sides. I don't think I have seen a whole lot of bitter hatred or hypocrisy from those arguing Karma's point of few. I find your statement sensationalist and maintain that it seeks only to disturb what has otherwise been civilized debate on a passionate topic.