TimeMaster Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Well crap guys, myself and my gov have NO idea what we did back then, mostly because most didn't have nations or were neutral. Nonetheless, you carry the banner of TPF. You identify yourself as the same alliance, under the same name. Just because you have a different government, doesn't change past action. All must account for their actions, in the end. That, by the way, is part of the essence of Karma (just as an interesting aside). EDIT: Spelling Edited May 22, 2009 by TimeMaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I honestly don't remember people being PZI'd during the time I was there. You must've been one of the last. Even nuke rogues were let off the hook. With Slayer's fervent hatred of anything Nazi I'm not really too surprised that was the reason. If you want I still have the screens. Although like I said it isn't our place to be world police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Nonetheless, you carry the banner of TPF. You identify yourself as the same alliance, under the same name. Just because you have a different government, doesn't change past action. All must account for their actions, in the end. That, by the way, is part of the essence of Karma (just as an interesting aside).EDIT: Spelling Wouldn't Karma be about those who do things receiving what they do? Not those who did not do something then get wacked for sins of the father? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) There are many, many nations TPF kept at PZI and they even had a name for one of their public lists, the DIAF (die in a fire, net meme) roster. I know someone who was placed on TPF's DIAF list for having nuked Slayer during a great war. He was lumped in with dozens of other PZI-sentenced nations, many of which had nazi-esque sounding or suggesting names, such as Adolf Anything and Slaytanic Wermacht mebbe, and many had offensive commentaries in their bios. It was pretty insulting, since there was nothing racist about him. I think his name was Denial, which is altogether fitting in this discussion today. Yes, the DIAF list exists to this day as far as I know. However that is not a ZI list. People get on it for a lot of reasons but all can get off of it by making amends. No one on that list was brought to ZI while I was there. Even some who never tried to pay reps for tech raiding TPF or welching on tech deals were really pursued all that hard. Edited May 22, 2009 by magicninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeMaster Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Wouldn't Karma be about those who do things receiving what they do? Not those who did not do something then get wacked for sins of the father? Except, you are still TPF. TPF, in this instance, counts as an individual (in my opinion). A person may change over the course of a lifetime, but they still must atone for their past actions, in the end. Now, if TPF had, for example, completely dissolved itself after UjP, and had manifested later (say, several months at least), with different leadership and a different name. . .they would be able to claim that they have no connection with TPF and it's actions. However, you have chosen to retain your name. . .and all the deeds perpetrated under that name. Edited May 22, 2009 by TimeMaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Except, you are still TPF. TPF, in this instance, counts as an individual (in my opinion). A person may change over the course of a lifetime, but they still must atone for their past actions, in the end. Now, if TPF had, for example, completely dissolved itself after UjP, and had manifested later (say, several months at least), with different leadership. . .they would be able to claim that they have no connection with TPF and it's actions. However, you have chosen to retain your name. . .and all the deeds perpetrated under that name. Yeah but I was saying earlier TPF's "misdeeds" are no more and in some cases less worse than some Karma alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Except, you are still TPF. TPF, in this instance, counts as an individual (in my opinion). A person may change over the course of a lifetime, but they still must atone for their past actions, in the end. Now, if TPF had, for example, completely dissolved itself after UjP, and had manifested later (say, several months at least), with different leadership. . .they would be able to claim that they have no connection with TPF and it's actions. However, you have chosen to retain your name. . .and all the deeds perpetrated under that name. So lets say TPF is a nation name, but with different ruler and different player. Would that ruler be guilty of the crimes some other ruler commited using that nation name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman Cao Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I want land reps. The rest is inconsequential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeMaster Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Yeah but I was saying earlier TPF's "misdeeds" are no more and in some cases less worse than some Karma alliances. Then they, in the end, through other means, will supposedly recieve their comeuppance (sp?). As I stated, not all the alliances in Karma are close friends. . .or even treaty partners. Therefore, the fact that a person is under the same label (which is all it is, an empty descriptive label) does not mean that we condone the past actions of other people under that label. TPF, however, is more than a label. . .which is why this doesnt apply to TPF. In the future, some of these alliances you speak of may very well recieve the benefits of their Karma. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeMaster Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) So lets say TPF is a nation name, but with different ruler and different player. Would that ruler be guilty of the crimes some other ruler commited using that nation name? That cannot necessarily apply, because instances can occur where someone may select a nation name without knowing it's past history. It could have been random chance, or another person with similar tastes in names. Whereas those who assumed command of TPF, and those who continued to remain in it, automatically agree to be held under the light of those actions. . .because it is assumed that you know the past history of your alliance, however sketchily. Now, if it can somehow be proved that a person assumed a particular ruler name with full knowledge of the history behind it. . .then a case could be made that the person might be inclined to attempting similar actions. EDIT: I'll be nodding off now. Any further posts will be adressed in 8+ hours. Edited May 22, 2009 by TimeMaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 That cannot necessarily apply, because instances can occur where someone may select a nation name without knowing it's past history. It could have been random chance, or another person with similar tastes in names. Whereas those who assumed command of TPF, and those who continued to remain in it, automatically agree to be held under the light of those actions. . .because it is assumed that you know the past history of your alliance, however sketchily. Now, if it can somehow be proved that a person assumed a particular ruler name with full knowledge of the history behind it. . .then a case could be made that the person might be inclined to attempting similar actions. I can safely say I didnt know tpf had issues with mk, I thought we were on the same side back in the day. I was a member of tpf for like 2 weeks before taking over completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oinkoink12 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Have you been reading our codex?Anyway a sentiment I can agree with IRON should get fairly lenient terms, they had to face us which should be enough of a punishment for any alliance, and they made a good fight of it, they haven't hid there upper ranks in PM (other than those few without a war chest). It's been a good war I have been reading your codex. And after a few discussions about the meaning of a few points your codex is meaningless in coordinated efforts. Allthought Gramlins dont want reps themselves, they dont care what others ask. Cause the codex only applies to Gramlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Specific Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Yes, the DIAF list exists to this day as far as I know. However that is not a ZI list. People get on it for a lot of reasons but all can get off of it by making amends. No one on that list was brought to ZI while I was there. Even some who never tried to pay reps for tech raiding TPF or welching on tech deals were really pursued all that hard. Slayer/TPF must have mellowed post UJP war. From what I know from friends who he threatened to pursue across rerolls following GW3, there was no diplomacy involved in the DIAF list. It was die in a fire, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkules Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I can safely say I didnt know tpf had issues with mk, I thought we were on the same side back in the day. I was a member of tpf for like 2 weeks before taking over completely. A lot of UjP members hold grudges against TPF for bailing on us and more or less leading to the annihilation of the Unjust Path during the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Slayer/TPF must have mellowed post UJP war. From what I know from friends who he threatened to pursue across rerolls following GW3, there was no diplomacy involved in the DIAF list. It was die in a fire, period. TPF didn't exist in GWIII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerius Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 MK's reps in the War of the Coalition, adjusted upwards proportionally for the size of those alliances. I would support this. Nothing more, but not much less, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Specific Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) TPF didn't exist in GWIII TPF is referred to as totalfarkistan or TF! in our history books. Same leader, same policies. Edited May 22, 2009 by General Specific Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oinkoink12 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Crimes when you havent even been founded yet? its like 4 dimensional Karma Edited May 22, 2009 by oinkoink12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Slayer/TPF must have mellowed post UJP war. From what I know from friends who he threatened to pursue across rerolls following GW3, there was no diplomacy involved in the DIAF list. It was die in a fire, period. Losing a war can do that to you. I seriously don't remember one PZI target in all my time at TPF. Before that I really can't say. There was a guy who TPF attacked for being a real $@! and the only reason he was attacked to deletion is because he didn't want to say he did wrong by attacking one of TPF's members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poyplemonkeys Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Yes, the DIAF list exists to this day as far as I know. However that is not a ZI list. People get on it for a lot of reasons but all can get off of it by making amends. No one on that list was brought to ZI while I was there. Even some who never tried to pay reps for tech raiding TPF or welching on tech deals were really pursued all that hard. Quit with the technicalities. The people on this list were to be constantly attacked until they were crossed off of it. The only reason many people didn't get brought to ZI from being on that list is because they deleted their nation before they made it there. There were a few that were removed from the list after making amends, but it was, and is unless it's changed, to all intents and purposes a ZI list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 TPF is referred to as totalfarkistan or TF! in our history books. Same leader, same policies. So I'm held accountable for TF!'s actions now too? They even broke off from us incase you missed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Quit with the technicalities. The people on this list were to be constantly attacked until they were crossed off of it. The only reason many people didn't get brought to ZI from being on that list is because they deleted their nation before they made it there. There were a few that were removed from the list after making amends, but it was, and is unless it's changed, to all intents and purposes a ZI list. When we merged, TPF was on the verge of disbandment. There might have been such a list, but since I joined we have not carried it out, nor do we know where "it" is located. For all intents there is no list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Quit with the technicalities. The people on this list were to be constantly attacked until they were crossed off of it. The only reason many people didn't get brought to ZI from being on that list is because they deleted their nation before they made it there. There were a few that were removed from the list after making amends, but it was, and is unless it's changed, to all intents and purposes a ZI list. If the nation doesn't want to make amends then yes he will eventually be brought to ZI but that isn't the intent. The intent is to get the target to make amends. IMO that does not a ZI list make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 When we merged, TPF was on the verge of disbandment. There might have been such a list, but since I joined we have not carried it out, nor do we know where "it" is located. For all intents there is no list. True. I don't even remember seeing the list after you guys came. It was never active enough to even draw any attention in the first place anyway. Again that is while I was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Specific Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Losing a war can do that to you. I seriously don't remember one PZI target in all my time at TPF. Before that I really can't say. There was a guy who TPF attacked for being a real $@! and the only reason he was attacked to deletion is because he didn't want to say he did wrong by attacking one of TPF's members. I'll remind you of Poison Clan and Atarax. All who left were to be attacked and their leaders were to be sentenced to PZI when they left (across rerolls, yes), and then the remaining TPF government went to hell in a handbasket trying to make sense of that. Now they have mhawk and that cool deathcat dude trying their damnedest to hold things together. Man, I love the Vox Populi alliance history archives. Edited May 22, 2009 by General Specific Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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