Reps for IRON, NPO, Echelon, and TPF

[SpiderJerusalem]

2. Each alliance should be judged (since thats what "karma" is doing) based on their own merit...... for instance IRON honoured agreements, stating flatly that we didn't agree with many actions that led to war. and for example IRON has not sat down and demanded harsh reps straight out of some alliance..... I have fought pretty much every war for IRON and I think i've gotten 50 tech in my CN career for reps.

First, to comment on the bolded part:

Where did you state such things? If it was only in regards to the current war, then it really isn't all that much. And you've never demanded harsh reps? GPA ring a bell? GOONS? \m/? Yes, you might say that you were not the ones demanding the reps directly, but you partook in the actions and didn't seem to be that bothered with the terms offered.

Also, I made this post in a different thread and I feel that it's valid here as well:

IRON have stood by Pacifica in nearly every major crime they have done against several alliances on our fine planet. If you had spoken up against tyrrany only once, you might have actually stopped it from happening. But no, you stood there silently and watched when nations burned and when (OOC) players were driven away from this game(/OOC). No, your crimes may not have been of the same magnitude as Pacifica, but you did nothing to prevent the tyrrany they stood for.

tl;dr:

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

[Matthew Conrad]

I don't disagree with anything you've said. Everything has some consequence, which is why it's impossible to be determined by anyone other than the victorious party.

However I (and many others) were personally disappointed at the treatment and surrender terms our allies received while looking for peace. Not that it's worth bringing up again, but there's undoubtedly some relevance when an alliance who'd done little-to-no wrong did not receive white peace after honouring a treaty and fighting a protracted war - perhaps it is most indicative of the peace terms NPO, IRON, Echelon & TPF will be greeted with, at the appropriate time.

Edit: Clarity & stuff.

While I can see why you were upset, you must admit the terms they were given were still lenient by any stretch of the imagination (especially since they're being paid for the tech). Even if you don't like them, you and I know kindness, while perhaps not at the magnitude you would've liked, should have been met with respect. Instead, there was far too much arguing over an overall trivial matter and it did look bad upon yourselves. Hell, I'm even a supporter of you guys getting overall light reps along with IRON and TPF but you have believe your actions will bring white peace before your attackers hand out terms. AKA: You guys should act like people deserving of lenient terms before you get them. That's all I hold over Echelon. NPO, however, I consider an entirely different matter.

[bbrownso]

First, to comment on the bolded part:

Where did you state such things? If it was only in regards to the current war, then it really isn't all that much. And you've never demanded harsh reps? GPA ring a bell? GOONS? \m/? Yes, you might say that you were not the ones demanding the reps directly, but you partook in the actions and didn't seem to be that bothered with the terms offered.

Also, I made this post in a different thread and I feel that it's valid here as well:

IRON have stood by Pacifica in nearly every major crime they have done against several alliances on our fine planet. If you had spoken up against tyrrany only once, you might have actually stopped it from happening. But no, you stood there silently and watched when nations burned and when (OOC) players were driven away from this game(/OOC). No, your crimes may not have been of the same magnitude as Pacifica, but you did nothing to prevent the tyrrany they stood for.

tl;dr:

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

Before you go back to the boondocks, , several of alliances under the aegis of Karma were just as complicit in the "crimes" committed against other alliances. They took part and were supporters of Pacifica.

Besides that fact, what is this list of "crimes"? Does anyone have a definite list of "crimes" that we can see? Is it the list of alliances that people have as propaganda in their sigs? I'm just curious as to the extent of the "crimes" Pacifica and the rest of the "hegemony" are charged with by Karma.

As for the bolded part, CN as a whole, including karma, is just as responsible for not doing something against something they found reprehensible. It's not like the alliances that fight as part of Karma suddenly reached a point where they felt appalled by Pacifica's practices. If what NPO was doing has been so reprehensible, why did all of these alliances just wait as people were driven from the game? Were they cowards or just didn't feel confident that they could win at the time? I await an answer.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Brandon Simonson

[Rush Sykes]

Before you go back to the boondocks, , several of alliances under the aegis of Karma were just as complicit in the "crimes" committed against other alliances. They took part and were supporters of Pacifica.

Besides that fact, what is this list of "crimes"? Does anyone have a definite list of "crimes" that we can see? Is it the list of alliances that people have as propaganda in their sigs? I'm just curious as to the extent of the "crimes" Pacifica and the rest of the "hegemony" are charged with by Karma.

As for the bolded part, CN as a whole, including karma, is just as responsible for not doing something against something they found reprehensible. It's not like the alliances that fight as part of Karma suddenly reached a point where they felt appalled by Pacifica's practices. If what NPO was doing has been so reprehensible, why did all of these alliances just wait as people were driven from the game? Were they cowards or just didn't feel confident that they could win at the time? I await an answer.

This is a pretty short-sighted view of several different things.

Are there alliances on the karma side that have supported NPO, even staunchly supported them, in their commission of global atrocities? Absolutely. Point conceded. There is, a tangible difference though. Were they truly the same as NPO in their lust for power, they could have easily once again supported Pacifica in this endeavor, leading ultimately to a curbstomp the other way. Why didnt they? I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and hope that they finally said "enough is enough." The aqua alliances that Athens and C n G as a whole have worked closely with certainly seem to fit in that mold. The fact is, though, only time will tell. Sometimes, in life, alcholics, womanizers, and gamblers, for instance, look in the mirror and say to themselves, "I have to change or I am headed to ruin." Give them the chance to personify that change, I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised.

As to CN as a whole being responsible for NPOs atrocities, that is both correct, and incorrect at any given time. Example, when C n G formed, we(they, since I was in FINAL at the time, and not a proud Athenian), they were a force in the cyberverse that was appalled at the way innocent alliances were manipulated and herded to their deaths for reasons which amounted to little more than bloodlust. Should C n G on day 1 have declared war on the Hegemony? Not to toot C n Gs horn here, or make us more important than we are, but that would have been just stupid and gotten us killed, probably over and over again. So, being as C n G has some of the brightest minds on Bob in it, they determined that eventually, the political sphere as a whole would shift to an anti-Hegemony stance. Its an inevitable fact. It would be far better for us to be an instrument of change if we were strengthened, hardened, and united both in numbers and spirit when the time arose. Opportunity knocked, and here we are. Had we "done something about it" from day 1, there would not have been a door for opportunity to knock on.

Side note: I tried to sound as eloquent as Archon and show off that fine WVU hangov...errr...education. Be patient, its my 1st attempt at eloquence.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Rush Sykes

[JBone]

Before you go back to the boondocks, , several of alliances under the aegis of Karma were just as complicit in the "crimes" committed against other alliances. They took part and were supporters of Pacifica.

Besides that fact, what is this list of "crimes"? Does anyone have a definite list of "crimes" that we can see? Is it the list of alliances that people have as propaganda in their sigs? I'm just curious as to the extent of the "crimes" Pacifica and the rest of the "hegemony" are charged with by Karma.

As for the bolded part, CN as a whole, including karma, is just as responsible for not doing something against something they found reprehensible. It's not like the alliances that fight as part of Karma suddenly reached a point where they felt appalled by Pacifica's practices. If what NPO was doing has been so reprehensible, why did all of these alliances just wait as people were driven from the game? Were they cowards or just didn't feel confident that they could win at the time? I await an answer.

Cmon Brandon, the "crimes" are fluid, they change to fit the situation that this loose coalition, that won't take any responsibility for things done by member alliances but takes credit for righting all the worlds wrongs, needs them to fit.

For some, the crime is direct, like NPO, they of course caused all the evil in todays world, past and present.

For some, the crimes are indirect, like IRON, who just stuck by allies, but never stopped them from committing said crimes...unless 15 minutes before the war started, you flipped sides, then all crimes are absolved. 18 months of crimes are apparently cancelled out by 15 minutes of deep thought, regret and of course all that NS added to the Karma cause. Free passes ftw.

For some the crime was bailing on NPO even though you have continued to fight at her side....unless, well you know, 15 minutes before the war, flipping, etc...

For some crimes are extortionary reps, even if you waived them or were only allied to those that took them.........that flipping sides thing applies here as well apparently, although I have seen some allude to only having the flippers help out to win the war, and getting them later....one at a time of course.

It should be interesting to watch, kinda like a game of Hot Potato and Musical Chairs combined....with nukes.

Yep, Karma is gonna be a !@#$%* for quite some time.

[SpiderJerusalem]

Before you go back to the boondocks, , several of alliances under the aegis of Karma were just as complicit in the "crimes" committed against other alliances. They took part and were supporters of Pacifica.

You are correct. However, none of them (except maybe one) have been as bad as IRON. When you take a look upon the terms that were given your own alliance however, they are far more lenient than you could have ever hoped for with Pacifica warring you. Especially since your side were the instigator in this war

Besides that fact, what is this list of "crimes"? Does anyone have a definite list of "crimes" that we can see? Is it the list of alliances that people have as propaganda in their sigs? I'm just curious as to the extent of the "crimes" Pacifica and the rest of the "hegemony" are charged with by Karma.

I am certain a gentleman such as yourselves have the necessary mental capability to locate the wiki page where NPO have listed their greatest triumphs

As for the bolded part, CN as a whole, including karma, is just as responsible for not doing something against something they found reprehensible.

Wait, what? Why are we having this war again? And have you seen the alliances fighting for us? Compare those to the list over alliances NPO and the Kool-Aid gang have been fighting before.

It's not like the alliances that fight as part of Karma suddenly reached a point where they felt appalled by Pacifica's practices. If what NPO was doing has been so reprehensible, why did all of these alliances just wait as people were driven from the game? Were they cowards or just didn't feel confident that they could win at the time? I await an answer.

There have been people waiting for the right opportunity yes. And the right opportunity came when NPO acted the way they did against OV. The whole situation (both our wait and our confidence, and the stupidity in NPOs decision to attack OV) can be described in a single Sun Tzu quote:

"The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory."

[Nizzle]

This is a pretty short-sighted view of several different things.

Are there alliances on the karma side that have supported NPO, even staunchly supported them, in their commission of global atrocities? Absolutely. Point conceded. There is, a tangible difference though. Were they truly the same as NPO in their lust for power, they could have easily once again supported Pacifica in this endeavor, leading ultimately to a curbstomp the other way. Why didnt they? I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and hope that they finally said "enough is enough." The aqua alliances that Athens and C n G as a whole have worked closely with certainly seem to fit in that mold. The fact is, though, only time will tell. Sometimes, in life, alcholics, womanizers, and gamblers, for instance, look in the mirror and say to themselves, "I have to change or I am headed to ruin." Give them the chance to personify that change, I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised.

Hello Rush Sykes, meet TOP.

[bbrownso]

Cmon Brandon, the "crimes" are fluid, they change to fit the situation that this loose coalition, that won't take any responsibility for things done by member alliances but takes credit for righting all the worlds wrongs, needs them to fit.

For some, the crime is direct, like NPO, they of course caused all the evil in todays world, past and present.

For some, the crimes are indirect, like IRON, who just stuck by allies, but never stopped them from committing said crimes...unless 15 minutes before the war started, you flipped sides, then all crimes are absolved. 18 months of crimes are apparently cancelled out by 15 minutes of deep thought, regret and of course all that NS added to the Karma cause. Free passes ftw.

For some the crime was bailing on NPO even though you have continued to fight at her side....unless, well you know, 15 minutes before the war, flipping, etc...

For some crimes are extortionary reps, even if you waived them or were only allied to those that took them.........that flipping sides thing applies here as well apparently, although I have seen some allude to only having the flippers help out to win the war, and getting them later....one at a time of course.

It should be interesting to watch, kinda like a game of Hot Potato and Musical Chairs combined....with nukes.

Yep, Karma is gonna be a !@#$%* for quite some time.

Let's remember that the flipping didn't just happen immediately prior to the war. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The treaty cancellations were just attempting to clear the red tape and not look like complete traitors and untrustworthy alliances.

[SpiderJerusalem]

Cmon Brandon, the "crimes" are fluid, they change to fit the situation that this loose coalition, that won't take any responsibility for things done by member alliances but takes credit for righting all the worlds wrongs, needs them to fit.

The crimes are actually extremely easy to define. And I see that you have taken the liberty to do so yourself, good boy. *gives treat*

For some, the crime is direct, like NPO, they of course caused all the evil in todays world, past and present.

They didn't cause all the evil, but they and their cronies have certainly been the ones behind most of the great crimes. (Disbanding alliances, attacking peaceful alliances, extorting reps, imposing viceroys etc, etc, etc.)

For some, the crimes are indirect, like IRON, who just stuck by allies, but never stopped them from committing said crimes...

Another classical one. Yes, I am glad you see the light

For some the crime was bailing on NPO even though you have continued to fight at her side....unless, well you know, 15 minutes before the war, flipping, etc...

Almost correct. The crime would have been bailing on NPO to escape your well deserved talking to

For some crimes are extortionary reps, even if you waived them or were only allied to those that took them.........that flipping sides thing applies here as well apparently, although I have seen some allude to only having the flippers help out to win the war, and getting them later....one at a time of course.

Of course the ones that have waived extortion like reps should receive some leniency when they shall be given terms themselves. However, an alliance such as your own, have far more on the naughty side than the nice side of the list. So, I guess it will be coal in your stocking this time.

Yep, Karma is gonna be a !@#$%* for quite some time.

That's something you can count on my dear

[SpiderJerusalem]

Let's remember that the flipping didn't just happen immediately prior to the war. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The treaty cancellations were just attempting to clear the red tape and not look like complete traitors and untrustworthy alliances.

Let's remember that the main perpetrators have been brought to justice. Most alliances on the Karma side have either gotten their punishment one or several times before, or were never part of the hegemony.

[JBone]

The crimes are actually extremely easy to define. And I see that you have taken the liberty to do so yourself, good boy. *gives treat*

They didn't cause all the evil, but they and their cronies have certainly been the ones behind most of the great crimes. (Disbanding alliances, attacking peaceful alliances, extorting reps, imposing viceroys etc, etc, etc.)

Another classical one. Yes, I am glad you see the light

Almost correct. The crime would have been bailing on NPO to escape your well deserved talking to

Of course the ones that have waived extortion like reps should receive some leniency when they shall be given terms themselves. However, an alliance such as your own, have far more on the naughty side than the nice side of the list. So, I guess it will be coal in your stocking this time.

That's something you can count on my dear

Just out of curiosity......list TPF top 5 crimes for me.

Let's remember that the main perpetrators have been brought to justice. Most alliances on the Karma side have either gotten their punishment one or several times before, or were never part of the hegemony.

ORLY? TOP, Gre, Sparta, MHA, RoK ?.......add that NS up and tell me again the definition of most.

[Nizzle]

Let's remember that the main perpetrators have been brought to justice. Most alliances on the Karma side have either gotten their punishment one or several times before, or were never part of the hegemony.

Is this what they're feeding you?

[SpiderJerusalem]

Just out of curiosity......list TPF top 5 crimes for me.

In no particular order:

• Woodstock massacre (Where outrageous reps were demanded, and the war was on a rather flimsy CB)
  
• VietFAN 2.0 (Yeah, as if FAN deserved that treatment)
  
• Stalking players in other fora to get CBs on their alliance (NoV war. For shame)
  
• BAPS slaughter (and the extremely bad behaviour towards BAPS and TDSM8 during the entire war)
  
• GATO war (With the aftermath being an NPO viceroy, along with the damnation of all players in PM)
  

ORLY? TOP, Gre, Sparta, MHA, RoK ?.......add that NS up and tell me again the definition of most.

I agree that TOP have done their fair share of bad deeds in the history of CN, and I have never denied it either.

However, Grämlins? You're kidding me, right? They have been nothing but fair in every war they have fought and won. Sparta? A few missteps, sure, but they are nowhere near you guys. MHA? Come on. They have also been acting much like Grämlins. Not quite, but almost. And RoK? They have been rather independent haven't they?

[SpiderJerusalem]

Is this what they're feeding you?

I've played this game long enough to form my own opinion, and I have never been afraid to express it either

[PrideAssassin]

First, to comment on the bolded part:

Where did you state such things? If it was only in regards to the current war, then it really isn't all that much. And you've never demanded harsh reps? GPA ring a bell? GOONS? \m/? Yes, you might say that you were not the ones demanding the reps directly, but you partook in the actions and didn't seem to be that bothered with the terms offered.

Also, I made this post in a different thread and I feel that it's valid here as well:

IRON have stood by Pacifica in nearly every major crime they have done against several alliances on our fine planet. If you had spoken up against tyrrany only once, you might have actually stopped it from happening. But no, you stood there silently and watched when nations burned and when (OOC) players were driven away from this game(/OOC). No, your crimes may not have been of the same magnitude as Pacifica, but you did nothing to prevent the tyrrany they stood for.

tl;dr:

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

You can repeat this to yourself as much as you wish, you're still not making any sort of valid or coherent point...

I suppose you're too busy lauding the tyranny GOONS, \m/, FAN, Vox and co stood for. NPO's actions were nothing compared to how Sponge and friends used to operate, but I suppose that's easily overlooked when he's pulling your strings, eh puppet?

Those evil Hegemony Alliances you've buddied up to within Karma? Oh, they're not "cowards" or "tyrants" they are nice stand up people who have paid for their "crimes" lmao You don't have a leg to stand on.

You've been used by the Core Karma players as surely as NPO ever used their alies. Now squak some more, parrot. Regurgitate this nonsense all over again. I never tire of reading it.

There is no noble cause. The fact of the matter is, this was a blatant power grab, no matter how you try to justify it. Witness the screams and moans generated by white peace. Karma is a joke.

I respect a great many alliances within Karma (and respect even more those who reject the label, and recognize them for what they are) my ramblings are not directed at them, but to misguided zealot hardliners such as yourself, and toward the entire "Karma" joke in general. Nice little amorphous concept to hide behind and use to hide the blood on your hands. Too bad it won't work.

[Sylar]

There is no noble cause. The fact of the matter is, this was a blatant power grab, no matter how you try to justify it. Witness the screams and moans generated by white peace. Karma is a joke.

this.

EDIT:i fixed the quote.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Sylar

[JBone]

In no particular order:

• Woodstock massacre (Where outrageous reps were demanded, and the war was on a rather flimsy CB)
  
• VietFAN 2.0 (Yeah, as if FAN deserved that treatment)
  
• Stalking players in other fora to get CBs on their alliance (NoV war. For shame)
  
• BAPS slaughter (and the extremely bad behaviour towards BAPS and TDSM8 during the entire war)
  
• GATO war (With the aftermath being an NPO viceroy, along with the damnation of all players in PM)
  

So everything listed, save NoV, is guilt by association because we were in Q. What other alliances were in that block? Don't get me wrong, I like TOP, Gre, MHA, and Sparta, but no denying they were part of all the crimes you listed.

TDSM8....go ask TrashKitten who helped pull their arse out of that mess. Hint: Begins with a Slay, ends with an er99. (while you are asking around....talk to FAN as well)

The NoV thing was pretty popular and universally hailed if I recall correctly, although I agree some of the means were over the top.

I agree that TOP have done their fair share of bad deeds in the history of CN, and I have never denied it either.

However, Grämlins? You're kidding me, right? They have been nothing but fair in every war they have fought and won. Sparta? A few missteps, sure, but they are nowhere near you guys. MHA? Come on. They have also been acting much like Grämlins. Not quite, but almost. And RoK? They have been rather independent haven't they?

If you are going to use association = guilt, you can't pick and choose who it applies to. Some changed earlier than others, Gre for example(personally I think they were only in Q to see Polar get stomped and left when that was accomplished, they sacrificed their morals to get that done)....but the rest, not so much. RoK...who did they fight with/against with in NoCB?

[Bob]

You can repeat this to yourself as much as you wish, you're still not making any sort of valid or coherent point...

I suppose you're too busy lauding the tyranny GOONS, \m/, FAN, Vox and co stood for. NPO's actions were nothing compared to how Sponge and friends used to operate, but I suppose that's easily overlooked when he's pulling your strings, eh puppet?

Did you honestly just imply that Sponge is somehow from his alliance pulling the strings of an alliance member who is no where NEARBY him on the treaty web? Are you really that ignorant?

Those evil Hegemony Alliances you've buddied up to within Karma? Oh, they're not "cowards" or "tyrants" they are nice stand up people who have paid for their "crimes" lmao You don't have a leg to stand on.

So we should ignore your crimes because there's are just as bad? Hmm, nah. Sparta forgave me reps when I was in GR following the War of the Coalition (Hyperion <3), Gremlins was never bad, TOP i dislike but they haven't asked for anything during this war and been honorable to those who they fight. RoK was never in tC, and fought in the War of the Coalition in support of their allies, and didn't do anything wrong, and were reasonable to those they fought.

You've been used by the Core Karma players as surely as NPO ever used their alies. Now squak some more, parrot. Regurgitate this nonsense all over again. I never tire of reading it.

I'd love to see them try. SpiderJ is a rather independent guy, who has been posting the same type of thing for months. He knows what is up, and isn't being bossed around by anyone.

Regurgitate the nonsense? That sounds like what you are doing, attempting to play down what your alliance has done and play up what others have done to reduce your punishment. Nice try.

There is no noble cause. The fact of the matter is, this was a blatant power grab, no matter how you try to justify it. Witness the screams and moans generated by white peace. Karma is a joke.

And look at posters like you, trying so hard to manipulate public opinion. its funny how you only try after you realize "Oh dang, we are doing to lose!!".

Do you know what Karma is? I suggest you look it up. Karma is getting what you deserve.

And a blatant power grab? NPO attacked OV. Their allies retaliated and it grew from there. Did NPO somehow get provoked into attacking OV, is that what you are saying? Or did OV simply say that they were done with NPO's crap and would not give in? That's an attempt to change the status quo, not a power grab, unless you think OV is going to come out on top after this.

I respect a great many alliances within Karma (and respect even more those who reject the label, and recognize them for what they are) my ramblings are not directed at them, but to misguided zealot hardliners such as yourself, and toward the entire "Karma" joke in general. Nice little amorphous concept to hide behind and use to hide the blood on your hands. Too bad it won't work.

Karma means To get what you deserve. IRON will get what they deserve, I have no doubts. personally, I don't claim that Karma is about white peace, but we (nemesis) have given easy terms to the alliances we fought. Show me where SpiderJ and Nemesis have blood on their hands, I would LOVE to see it.

[Bob]

The NoV thing was pretty popular and universally hailed if I recall correctly, although I agree some of the means were over the top.

Yes, because no one was willing to oppose tC. Privately, my alliance (GR) threw a big fit over it and were angry that you used totally OOC methods to attack an alliance and the fact that most of NoV was blacklisted for being "Nazis" when really they had done nothing. A few bad eggs spoiling the lot, and those bad eggs had been kicked out.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I suppose that's easily overlooked when he's pulling your strings, eh puppet?

I have never laughed this much over a comment directed at me before... Run along little one, you have truly no idea

Those evil Hegemony Alliances you've buddied up to within Karma? Oh, they're not "cowards" or "tyrants" they are nice stand up people who have paid for their "crimes" lmao You don't have a leg to stand on.

Seriously, are you for real?

You've been used by the Core Karma players as surely as NPO ever used their alies. Now squak some more, parrot. Regurgitate this nonsense all over again. I never tire of reading it.

See, this is you admitting you have been used by NPO. I however have never had a hard time forming my own opinion.

There is no noble cause. The fact of the matter is, this was a blatant power grab, no matter how you try to justify it. Witness the screams and moans generated by white peace. Karma is a joke.

Witness that the mainly innocent alliances have gotten white peace, because of their acts of the past. You however, shall feel what Karma truly is. I guess you have to look it up to understand that you're grasping at straws here

I respect a great many alliances within Karma (and respect even more those who reject the label, and recognize them for what they are) my ramblings are not directed at them, but to misguided zealot hardliners such as yourself, and toward the entire "Karma" joke in general. Nice little amorphous concept to hide behind and use to hide the blood on your hands. Too bad it won't work.

Listen up little boy and listen good.

The blood on my hands will never be washed away nor hidden. It will forever be there to remind me that some sacrifices must be done for the good of the planet. But before you rabble on with your accusations, take a look at the reps demanded by Nemesis in this war to the alliances we have been at war with.

Yes, I truly believe that IRON, NPO and TPF deserve rather harsh terms. They deserve it because of their roles in the past. They deserve it because of the blood of the innocents that have fertilized their crops. And they deserve it so that it will never have to happen again. I will not stand here and say that I deserve as much as a penny of those reps. But I hope that they will pay them to the ones that have been wronged in the past.

[SpiderJerusalem]

So everything listed, save NoV, is guilt by association because we were in Q. What other alliances were in that block? Don't get me wrong, I like TOP, Gre, MHA, and Sparta, but no denying they were part of all the crimes you listed.

Nah, not really. Take a look at the GPA war for example. Gre and Sparta were against it and opted to stay out of it.

TDSM8....go ask TrashKitten who helped pull their arse out of that mess. Hint: Begins with a Slay, ends with an er99. (while you are asking around....talk to FAN as well)

The fact of the matter is that Slayer helped them only when he saw what a PR nightmare this could turn into

The NoV thing was pretty popular and universally hailed if I recall correctly, although I agree some of the means were over the top.

The NoV thing was hailed out of ignorance

If you are going to use association = guilt, you can't pick and choose who it applies to.

I most definitely can when I take a look at the ones behind mentioned conflicts. As I said, Gre and Sparta stayed out of the GPA war, TPF licked their mouths and jumped straight in

but the rest, not so much. RoK...who did they fight with/against with in NoCB?

RoK fought against Polar. I am actually on the fence about that war. Yes, the CB was flimsy, but if you take a look at it in a karmic way, they got what they deserved. Only really horrible thing is that so many innocents were pulled in with them

[PrideAssassin]

Did you honestly just imply that Sponge is somehow from his alliance pulling the strings of an alliance member who is no where NEARBY him on the treaty web? Are you really that ignorant?

So we should ignore your crimes because there's are just as bad? Hmm, nah. Sparta forgave me reps when I was in GR following the War of the Coalition (Hyperion <3), Gremlins was never bad, TOP i dislike but they haven't asked for anything during this war and been honorable to those who they fight. RoK was never in tC, and fought in the War of the Coalition in support of their allies, and didn't do anything wrong, and were reasonable to those they fought.

I'd love to see them try. SpiderJ is a rather independent guy, who has been posting the same type of thing for months. He knows what is up, and isn't being bossed around by anyone.

Regurgitate the nonsense? That sounds like what you are doing, attempting to play down what your alliance has done and play up what others have done to reduce your punishment. Nice try.

And look at posters like you, trying so hard to manipulate public opinion. its funny how you only try after you realize "Oh dang, we are doing to lose!!".

Do you know what Karma is? I suggest you look it up. Karma is getting what you deserve.

And a blatant power grab? NPO attacked OV. Their allies retaliated and it grew from there. Did NPO somehow get provoked into attacking OV, is that what you are saying? Or did OV simply say that they were done with NPO's crap and would not give in? That's an attempt to change the status quo, not a power grab, unless you think OV is going to come out on top after this.

Karma means To get what you deserve. IRON will get what they deserve, I have no doubts. personally, I don't claim that Karma is about white peace, but we (nemesis) have given easy terms to the alliances we fought. Show me where SpiderJ and Nemesis have blood on their hands, I would LOVE to see it.

lol And here's the blinders.

Awwww Sparta forgave you reps? IRON never took reps. If they DID recieve reps, it was tech that was PAID for in full. Try harder.

I know what Karma is, and you are not it. To even suggest that you are the Agents and Drivers of a Divine concept is the very height of arrogance and ignorance.

NPO had valid cause to attack OV, what they did after they attacked was a bit unsavory, however, hanging TORN out to dry. I never said they were saints, only that there were far worse offenders, and many of them make up your precious bloc.

See, this is you admitting you have been used by NPO. I however have never had a hard time forming my own opinion.

Nope, just turning your baseless claims against you.

Witness that the mainly innocent alliances have gotten white peace, because of their acts of the past.

o/ Valhalla!

You however, shall feel what Karma truly is. I guess you have to look it up to understand that you're grasping at straws here.

[JBone]

Yes, because no one was willing to oppose tC. Privately, my alliance (GR) threw a big fit over it and were angry that you used totally OOC methods to attack an alliance and the fact that most of NoV was blacklisted for being "Nazis" when really they had done nothing. A few bad eggs spoiling the lot, and those bad eggs had been kicked out.

What a bunch of crap.

Privately OBM and quite a few others in TPF threw a big fit too and were angry for the same reasons.

Should we be absolved as well?

We did what we did with NoV, wrong or right we live with that.

I'm sure now that it's over many of those hailing what was done and throwing stones at NoV from a safe distance will claim the "I was ascared of the ebil tC" defense.

For the time I was in tC Sanctum and #world I saw much private disagreement with things that tC eventually went through with...all the dissenters should be absolved I suppose.

This is not a personal attack but please don't give me the "I was against it in private" manure.

[Matthew Conrad]

lol And here's the blinders.

Awwww Sparta forgave you reps? IRON never took reps. If they DID recieve reps, it was tech that was PAID for in full. Try harder.

I know what Karma is, and you are not it. To even suggest that you are the Agents and Drivers of a Divine concept is the very height of arrogance and ignorance.

NPO had valid cause to attack OV, what they did after they attacked was a bit unsavory, however, hanging TORN out to dry. I never said they were saints, only that there were far worse offenders, and many of them make up your precious bloc.

Nope, just turning your baseless claims against you.

o/ Valhalla!

You however, shall feel what Karma truly is. I guess you have to look it up to understand that you're grasping at straws here.

I'm going to be honest here, you do a disservice to the many reasonable IRON members who have posted in this thread thus far. Your very acceptance of NPO's CB against OV is far more evident of that than anything else I can post.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I know what Karma is, and you are not it. To even suggest that you are the Agents and Drivers of a Divine concept is the very height of arrogance and ignorance.

Multiple definitions are bad

NPO had valid cause to attack OV, what they did after they attacked was a bit unsavory, however, hanging TORN out to dry. I never said they were saints, only that there were far worse offenders, and many of them make up your precious bloc.

Care to come with some examples?

Nope, just turning your baseless claims against you.

Baseless claims? Hello Mr. Man, welcome to reality, take a look around.

o/ Valhalla!

So, you think it's a bad thing that your close MDoAP partners get light terms? And did you just say that Valhalla have acted bad in the past? A past that you share? A past that have just a tiny bit less dirty spots than yours? Interesting

You however, shall feel what Karma truly is. I guess you have to look it up to understand that you're grasping at straws here.

Oh, I know this one...

NO U!