Imperial Decree

[zzzptm]

You haven't read a word of this thread.. have you?

OOC: Lol though

Aw, jeez. I saw all the posts and just assumed they be trollin'...

So I see in the TORN thread that NPO declared a cease-fire? Or abandoned them or something...

aide whispers in Zzzptm's ear

Yeah, so, tell ya what... I'll get on IRC and get this all straightened out.

[jerdge]

Would you rather that the small identities continue to be the only ones that lose? I thought it a rather noble thing to see alliances that dont have to lose anything begin to step up for those that everything to lose.

Yes, I would like that the small (and big as well) alliances were set free from the continuous threat of aggression, and hadn't to fear from any intimidation.

In fact, all my CN career has basically been devoted to this goal only.

Anyway all of this has nothing to do with my previous comment, and "little" to do with this Imperial Decree.

I am sympathetic with OV that is a small alliance obviously finding itself in bad waters, attacked by the biggest alliance in CN, but my knowledge of the matter doesn't consent me to go beyond a generic wish of good luck in getting peace soon.

My (also limited, but a bit wider) knowledge of Pacifica and Moo tells me that - while they're certainly not immune from mistakes - they are not "probably" guilty of all these sins they're being accused of [/understatement].

I wish them also good luck in getting peace soon. I'd also be happy to fully support their side but I honestly know almost nothing of the whole matter and I would be insulting theirs and everybody's intelligence if I just showed blind support (in fact, mindless hails would probably be even detrimental to their cause, at this point.)

Also, nobody that knew me would believe that I can sincerely blindly approve anybody, and the others would just skip my words (something many recommend anyway...)

If the NPO wishes to enjoy the MHA assistance in whatever good cause they just need to call us, as usual and as I wish they did even every given day, if needed.

While I can't here speak officially for the MHA I am sure that everybody knows that we're always happy to be of help for our friends' good initiatives.

[Zeta Defender]

The burden of proof lies with, according to precedent in this world, the accused, the accuser (your lot, more often than not) being exempt from having to provide anything to the hungry masses.

Logs can be altered, which you have not claimed yet, and have been provided with enough context to clarify Moo's intent. What is left to prove? Clearly, there is something, so enlighten us, since you seem to have an in with this crowd.

The alternative is that you are bluffing and intending to cast a shadow over the Karmalites, in an effort, as you are wont to do, to discredit them. If you are going that route, the wiser course is to, again, provide the logs yourself.

As I am not an IO and has already said that, I am only here to see why so many want to see us hang. With the bandwagon and vultures started picking at us before any on this Karma side have fired a shell.

The burden of proof is realtive, since we attacked OV and provided context for the attacks. The accuser gave proof, then Karma, as I understand it using OV as a stepping stone for their own agenda and acting as their vocal cords accused the NPO and Moo and the CB reason. Without showing any proof until asked repetitively. If Karma was acting in respect to OV, then they are acting on the side of the accused and according to what you just said, The burden of proof lies with, according to precedent in this world, the accused, the accuser." The ball is in your court, not ours to provide the logs.

[JLP]

As I am not an IO and has already said that, I am only here to see why so many want to see us hang. With the bandwagon and vultures started picking at us before any on this Karma side have fired a shell.

The burden of proof is realtive, since we attacked OV and provided context for the attacks. The accuser gave proof, then Karma, as I understand it using OV as a stepping stone for their own agenda and acting as their vocal cords accused the NPO and Moo and the CB reason. Without showing any proof until asked repetitively. If Karma was acting in respect to OV, then they are acting on the side of the accused and according to what you just said, The burden of proof lies with, according to precedent in this world, the accused, the accuser." The ball is in your court, not ours to provide the logs.

My head is about to explode from trying to understand this post.

[R&R-Viking]

My head is about to explode from trying to understand this post.

tl;dr only alliances that are not NPO have to provide proof of things

[Stormsend]

As I am not an IO and has already said that, I am only here to see why so many want to see us hang. With the bandwagon and vultures started picking at us before any on this Karma side have fired a shell.

The burden of proof is realtive, since we attacked OV and provided context for the attacks. The accuser gave proof, then Karma, as I understand it using OV as a stepping stone for their own agenda and acting as their vocal cords accused the NPO and Moo and the CB reason. Without showing any proof until asked repetitively. If Karma was acting in respect to OV, then they are acting on the side of the accused and according to what you just said, The burden of proof lies with, according to precedent in this world, the accused, the accuser." The ball is in your court, not ours to provide the logs.

The accused denied nothing, as there is nothing to deny. They received and did not distribute an image of Pacifican territory, and during negotiations, were attacked for it.

That accusation is done with. In retaliation for his actions, your fine emperor has said that cannot be retracted. Karma became the accuser, Pacifica the accused. The issue is separate, the charges new.

Karma is acting in the interest of OV by providing a double standard given by your emperor. Your turn to acknowledge or disprove.

[James Wilson]

tl;dr only alliances that are not NPO have to provide proof of things

That sounds about right.

[zzzptm]

Hi there.

Found it.

OK, caught up.

[Bob Janova]

It is amusing to see a Pacifican demanding full logs after so many long months of Pacifican statements stating that no evidence needs be presented to the court of public opinion. But Zeta, the relevant logs are available to you, either in this thread or on the Tattler.

It is almost unbelievable how some of you are going for the 'Oh, don't turn into what you hate' line already. Have you accepted defeat so soon? Even in GW3 and the Unjust War where the outcome was clear, the losing side was not looking to surrender with favourable terms on day 1! I believe that you will receive peace if (when? that's what you seem to be saying) you lose, but there is a large list of alliances who will want restitution for past wrongs, and those negotiations will be humbling for you.

Karma claims that these charges are false and that the NPO is to blame

No. Karma claims (correctly) that the NPO and its allies who also pressured OV are guilty of blatant hypocrisy, and that the 'charges' are for something which they themselves do frequently. Moo even stated that he receives information from spies regularly: look at the logs posted a page or two ago. Karma further claims (also correctly) that you attacked without posting a DoW, that you attacked during peace negotiations and that you later tried to undo the war without informing your partners-in-crime at TORN.

[R&R-Viking]

It is amusing to see a Pacifican demanding full logs after so many long months of Pacifican statements stating that no evidence needs be presented to the court of public opinion. But Zeta, the relevant logs are available to you, either in this thread or on the Tattler.

It is almost unbelievable how some of you are going for the 'Oh, don't turn into what you hate' line already. Have you accepted defeat so soon? Even in GW3 and the Unjust War where the outcome was clear, the losing side was not looking to surrender with favourable terms on day 1! I believe that you will receive peace if (when? that's what you seem to be saying) you lose, but there is a large list of alliances who will want restitution for past wrongs, and those negotiations will be humbling for you.

No. Karma claims (correctly) that the NPO and its allies who also pressured OV are guilty of blatant hypocrisy, and that the 'charges' are for something which they themselves do frequently. Moo even stated that he receives information from spies regularly: look at the logs posted a page or two ago. Karma further claims (also correctly) that you attacked without posting a DoW, that you attacked during peace negotiations and that you later tried to undo the war without informing your partners-in-crime at TORN.

This couldn't be beaten into enough heads even if you used the largest, most expensive hammer ever built.

[Teriethien]

Karma is claiming a greater fault than what Moo claimed in his CB in which he did provide logs showing his thought process. Karma claims that these charges are false and that the NPO is to blame. So since Karma is claiming larger charge of crimes, proof falls to them to prove their side with logs and facts verses trying to tally though what they consider to be their party line.

The word twisting in your posts are making my head explode too. Then again, I guess everything you and NPO has to say can be summed up as:

tl;dr only alliances that are not NPO have to provide proof of things

[Sal Paradise]

I never expected the NPO to screw up this much. 2 years of phoning it in and this is what you get I suppose.

Never send a cow to do a man's job.

[Elric]

No, OV had absolutely no reason to do anything in this matter but to become stiff necked and resolute when under normal circumstances they would have given up whoever they needed to give up and VE would have been poking them in the ribs until they did.

Having a bunch of rifles poking out of the weeds in back of you pointed at the bad guys in front of you tends make you far braver than you might be otherwise....

ChairmanHal- Don't presume that you know anything about how OV would treat our alliance members. If we felt that someone had done something that was worthy of punishment, we would have handled the affair swiftly and with a level of punishment that was apprpriate. We will leave throwing your own under the bus to you. Based on your statement, I can only infer that must be how Valhalla would have handled NPO and company making demands of you. Nice insight. I will file that away for future reference. Don't presume knowledge about VE either. That is not the way they operate either. In fact, all they did is stand up for their friends. They could have said, wow- NPO and others want OV blood. Go ahead and take it. Stand up gents and ladies in my book. Again, from your attitude, I can only infer how Valhalla must operate internally. Sure hope that I am wrong.

No, you did not contradict that. However the negotiations were still taking place at the time of the DoW. If you dispute the fact that an official mediator was discussing the negotiations with OV, then there is still the fact that no word was given (clearly) to the other parties involved that the negotiations had been terminated. This can only be construed as a deliberate act intended to aide in the launching of a surprise attack, which again lends credit to the belief that the "connection failure" is a convenient excuse.

It goes beyond a broken connection...Battle plans had to be pre-determined and orders were issued prior to update to stage the attack. The decision had already been made well in advance as to what was to happen, as coordination was made with TORN about who was to attack whom. The "peace" talks were a sham. And I am quite sure that those involved thought it quite clever. Probably was sending queries laughing the whole time...Well, not everybody is as tickled.

[Michael McBride]

Class... my anti-NPO

[dejarue]

No, OV had absolutely no reason to do anything in this matter but to become stiff necked and resolute when under normal circumstances they would have given up whoever they needed to give up and VE would have been poking them in the ribs until they did.

Having a bunch of rifles poking out of the weeds in back of you pointed at the bad guys in front of you tends make you far braver than you might be otherwise....

bahahahahahahaha I can't believe you actually said this.

OV would have caved to blackmail if they didn't have friends that allowed them to not by bullied around by a larger alliance.

Good logic ChairmanHal. You hit the nail right on the head. Yes, the fact that OV had enough backup to be in an even bargaining position meant they didn't have to cave to unreasonable demands.

Are you like, a plant to make NPO and Co. look bad?

[Mathias]

bahahahahahahaha I can't believe you actually said this.

OV would have caved to blackmail if they didn't have friends that allowed them to not by bullied around by a larger alliance.

Good logic ChairmanHal. You hit the nail right on the head. Yes, the fact that OV had enough backup to be in an even bargaining position meant they didn't have to cave to unreasonable demands.

Are you like, a plant to make NPO and Co. look bad?

OV just isn't lucky enough to have allies that won't back them up. :lol:

[R&R-Viking]

So is this really boiling down to "and I would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids"?

That's sad if true.

[Doitzel]

Are you like, a plant to make NPO and Co. look bad?

Crap, they're on to us.

[Ejayrazz]

What are the rebuts for the following arguments:

1. Those accepting screenies of OV's forums is considered spying.

2. Attacking during peace negotiations

3. Terrible diplomacy, allowing others to talk for others

4. Was there substantial proof of those accepting BS applicants?

5. Was there substantial proof of a 'secret treaty'?

;D

[HeinousOne]

What are the rebuts for the following arguments:

1. Those accepting screenies of OV's forums is considered spying.

2. Attacking during peace negotiations

3. Terrible diplomacy, allowing others to talk for others

4. Was there substantial proof of those accepting BS applicants?

5. Was there substantial proof of a 'secret treaty'?

;D

Do they really even need to bother at this point? What's done is done, and what is to be done about it is already decided by most parties.

[Ejayrazz]

Do they really even need to bother at this point? What's done is done, and what is to be done about it is already decided by most parties.

Yes. It needs addressing.

Just so I can hear the rebuts...again. and again. Until they understand they are wrong.

PLus, I don't want to read 72 pages which half of the people don't make no sense whatsoever, no offense (Both sides, etc)

Edited April 22, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Duncan King]

Karma further claims (also correctly) that you attacked without posting a DoW, that you attacked during peace negotiations and that you later tried to undo the war without informing your partners-in-crime at TORN.

This alone is a very serious crime. It's not like you can just unring a bell. TORN were the NPO's attack partners, they should have been consulted before any attempts at ceasefiring took place.

Of course, there are both sides to every story and Karma isn't 100% right, but can't we at least try not to look like complete idiots?

[Gruthenia]

As I am not an IO and has already said that, I am only here to see why so many want to see us hang. With the bandwagon and vultures started picking at us before any on this Karma side have fired a shell.

The burden of proof is realtive, since we attacked OV and provided context for the attacks. The accuser gave proof, then Karma, as I understand it using OV as a stepping stone for their own agenda and acting as their vocal cords accused the NPO and Moo and the CB reason. Without showing any proof until asked repetitively. If Karma was acting in respect to OV, then they are acting on the side of the accused and according to what you just said, The burden of proof lies with, according to precedent in this world, the accused, the accuser." The ball is in your court, not ours to provide the logs.

All those times NPO and their allies rolled somebody, and somebody complained, but your comrades shouted him down, mocking him for being an e-lawyer, telling him to "do something about it."

Somebody does something about it, and this is what we get? Now, squeal like a piggy!

Oh, wait, you already are.

[Tom Litler]

1. Those accepting screenies of OV's forums is considered spying.

[00:00] <Moo-Cows> you know as well as I that every alliance accepts information

2. Attacking during peace negotiations

We negotiated in good faith. Our good faith was thrown aside.

3. Terrible diplomacy, allowing others to talk for others

We negotiated in good faith. Our good faith was thrown aside.

4. Was there substantial proof of those accepting BS applicants?

5. Was there substantial proof of a 'secret treaty'?

Everyone knows that the New Pacific Order need not provide any justification for their actions nor proof of their assertions; yet everyone else must do so for them.

Do not ask me how that works. Emperor TrotskysRevenge can thank me later for answering with pretty much the same reply that he would provide.

[Gabe Logan]

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like it anymore than you men.