Upper End of the War

[Banned]

Hmm, at 1k we're doing quite nicely. Old players coming back tend to do rather well against unwashed newbies.

 

Geerland, why are you giving away my position?

Such delusion.

Even more humorous given that most of C&G is in peace mode and has been for a while.

The only thing your "side" will be dominating is the peacemode warrior war, ODN is in the lead.

The fact that the numbers game so heavily favors Eq, it's shocking that so many of their enemies are seemingly able to rotate in and out of pm at will.  That really doesn't fair well for Eq in the long run, and these situations tend to get worse the longer that war continues.  I won't speculate whether this is an organization problem or a severe number of nations that aren't prepared to engage long-term, but for the numbers advantage to beat the tech and warchest advantage, Eq would ultimately have to keep their opposition out of PM where nukes are being restocked, nuclear anarchy being reset, and giving CnG/DH the ability to come back and pick off targets.  Eq was originally called the aggressors in this thread (I think before the names were all picked), and it would be wise for them to stick to an aggressive strategy rather than just noting that targets are available when one of their nations is calling for backup against nuclear domination.

[Hime Themis]

The response you will receive is "HAVE YOU READ THE TREATY?!"

Gentle Persons

 

 Since this has been raised and we have made no formal statement let me address this.
 

First we have been asked virtually daily by both sides with good and honest reasons to enter this war. It would be easy to accept the offer of a friend to come along. We did not.

 

Second. It would have been very easy to say we have good friends and alliance we are friendly with on both sides and thus we will be neutral. We did not.
 

Third It would have been easy to have not spoken with our two allies that we have military treaties with TOP and Creole. Instead we told them both before they went to war that if they were attacked unbidden that regardless of the side they supported we would come to their defense. It would have been far easier to have ignored that obligation. We did not.
 

Fourth. It would have been easy to do as many alliances do and find some unique interpretation of one of our treaties to join in this war on either side for a cheap win and big reps. We did not.
 

Fifth we could have before they were at war taken the cool route and dumped our treaties or modified them to avoid our risk as has happened all too frequently. We did not.
 

Sixth. It would be easy to come on a bandwagon on either side moralizing our supposed moral superiority while vilify an alliance particularly one who has not been all that nice to us. We did not.

 

Seventh. We could have taken this opportunity to drag up some old past transgression to pummel am alliance for revenge and burnish our war reputation against a beaten down foe. We did not.
 

Eighth. It would be easy to upgrade or downgrade our treaties on the eve of war to try to get in or out as we feel is to our benefit. As other have tried with us. We did not
 

Nineth Feanor Noldorin "HAVE YOU READ THE TREATY?!" Excellent question mine is why does this seem like a bad thing? Our treaties mean exactly what they say no more and no less. We once had our primary treaty questioned legitimately for cute and nebulous wording. NEVER AGAIN. Our treaties speak plainly and directly as to what we offer and expect. Our Covenant was posted on OWF and all our embassies and our forum to bind US to our values and morality. We will NEVER support aggressive wars. We clearly outlined what that meant in The Covenant. This led us into a sad disagreement with our good friends in The Apparatus when they went to war with Non Grata an alliance that we admittedly at the time we none too fond of for supporting and sheltering two nuclear rogues who had attacked me and fought our alliance. Yet the purpose of values is not to toss them aside when it is convenient or advantageous but rather to provide a compass when one desires revenge or payback. We lost a treaty over that that we greatly regret and were hurt by that but our morality is not supposed to be easy it is important precisely because it is hard. So yes we read and write our treaties so there can be no fudging when it would be to our advantage or pleasure. Why should this not be always the way? It would be easy to give in to one’s base desire. We did not.
 

We are not and never been neutral in the wars we have fought and those that we did not. We stand by our word for friend and foe.  Others may choose a different path and we respect that. We did not.

 

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

Edited February 9, 2013 by Hime Themis

[King Louis the II]

To all above

1- This is not a place to be political or score PR points. So please lets keep the discussion on numbers, tactics and strategy.
2- Cuba: You say that is a dogpile and at the same time say that DH has an advantage. It sound a little bit confusing. But anyway, my point is that there are several micros and medium size alliances out there that have a handful of over 100k nations and that can count. i am not saying that Q will win or anything.
3- I know very well the OBR letter. I also think I know a little bit better the relationship between sparta and OBR than you. OBR doesnt have any obligation. I never said that. I mentioned the treaty just as a example that both alliances are close (specially because OBR is very isolasionist) What I said is that it would worth to try to convince them. as I mentioned before the possibilities are low, but the gain if happened was so big that it worth the try.



ADDED: I POSTED THIS AT THE SAME TIME AND WITHOUT KNOWING HIME THEMIS POST.

Edited February 9, 2013 by King Louis the II

[King Louis the II]

Gentle Persons
 
 Since this has been raised and we have made no formal statement let me address this.
 
First we have been asked virtually daily by both sides with good and honest reasons to enter this war. It would be easy to accept the offer of a friend to come along. We did not.
 
Second. It would have been very easy to say we have good friends and alliance we are friendly with on both sides and thus we will be neutral. We did not.
 
Third It would have been easy to have not spoken with our two allies that we have military treaties with TOP and Creole. Instead we told them both before they went to war that if they were attacked unbidden that regardless of the side they supported we would come to their defense. It would have been far easier to have ignored that obligation. We did not.
 
Fourth. It would have been easy to do as many alliances do and find some unique interpretation of one of our treaties to join in this war on either side for a cheap win and big reps. We did not.
 
Fifth we could have before they were at war taken the cool route and dumped our treaties or modified them to avoid our risk as has happened all too frequently. We did not.
 
Sixth. It would be easy to come on a bandwagon on either side moralizing our supposed moral superiority while vilify an alliance particularly one who has not been all that nice to us. We did not.
 
Seventh. We could have taken this opportunity to drag up some old past transgression to pummel am alliance for revenge and burnish our war reputation against a beaten down foe. We did not.
 
Eighth. It would be easy to upgrade or downgrade our treaties on the eve of war to try to get in or out as we feel is to our benefit. As other have tried with us. We did not
 
Nineth Feanor Noldorin "HAVE YOU READ THE TREATY?!" Excellent question mine is why does this seem like a bad thing? Our treaties mean exactly what they say no more and no less. We once had our primary treaty questioned legitimately for cute and nebulous wording. NEVER AGAIN. Our treaties speak plainly and directly as to what we offer and expect. Our Covenant was posted on OWF and all our embassies and our forum to bind US to our values and morality. We will NEVER support aggressive wars. We clearly outlined what that meant in The Covenant. This led us into a sad disagreement with our good friends in The Apparatus when they went to war with Non Grata an alliance that we admittedly at the time we none too fond of for supporting and sheltering two nuclear rogues who had attacked me and fought our alliance. Yet the purpose of values is not to toss them aside when it is convenient or advantageous but rather to provide a compass when one desires revenge or payback. We lost a treaty over that that we greatly regret and were hurt by that but our morality is not supposed to be easy it is important precisely because it is hard. So yes we read and write our treaties so there can be no fudging when it would be to our advantage or pleasure. Why should this not be always the way? It would be easy to give in to ones base desire. We did not.
 
We are not and never been neutral in the wars we have fought and those that we did not. We stand by our word for friend and foe.  Others may choose a different path and we respect that. We did not.
 
Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

Thank you.

basicaly this was exactly what I was refering to. I am not in Sparta anymore. I am only an observer.

The treaty does not make any obligation, only recognized friendship. As I mentioned, if I was in sparta I would try to convince OBR, just because I think it would be the right thing to do. However OBR has all the right to do whatever they want, and no matter the decision the friendship wouldn't be affected.


Added: to be fair the question that Feanor posted it was addressed to me. I dont think he was criticizing the treaty. Edited February 9, 2013 by King Louis the II

[Feanor Noldorin]

Nineth Feanor Noldorin "HAVE YOU READ THE TREATY?!" Excellent question mine is why does this seem like a bad thing?

 

In my statement I did not say that the response they would receive would be bad. I merely gave them the response.
 

[Geerland]

Really you people should listen to Brehon more and not just spout off party lines. I have to admit, you've done a pretty fine job on our upper tier that was out of peace mode and outnumbered 6:1, hence why our top 30 are all in peace mode.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

Really you people should listen to Brehon more and not just spout off party lines. I have to admit, you've done a pretty fine job on our upper tier that was out of peace mode and outnumbered 6:1, hence why our top 30 are all in peace mode.

Well, it's working out great for all of us right now and I suspect it's going to keep working out well.

[King Louis the II]

This is a great thread please lets make it free from propaganda.

Any new stats on >100K nations???

[commander thrawn]

Not being biased here, but the same way you said that you could factor other AAs that helped you from time to time, there are many other alliances that you could factor on the Eq side. In fact, there are multiple alliances from the Q side that havent joined yet. While some of them are not particularly strong (except one), all of them have a handfull of nations above 100. Some alliances that might eventually joing Q: Apparatus, UPN, House Baratheon, Alpha Omega (despite umbrella ties) etc.

I think the war is too early to call, however as I said earlier, the biggest advantage of Q side is the capacity of rotate nations and even alliances. On the other hand DH side nations will need to be either in PM or engaged.


Added: By the way, The order of the black rose has a treaty with Sparta. If I was Sparta's MoFA (I was in the past but I not even in the AA anymore) I would be talking to Hime Themis everyday trying to convince them to join. They are not very fond of DH and While the possibility of they joining the war is low , if happens it would be a major blow against DH.

 

 

OBR is unlikely to engage in a war like this, it isn't their way.

[Do Not Fear Jazz]

For instance, if OBR joined on DH side, the upper tier would be lost and would be even more hilarious for Q.

[Namayan]

This is a great thread please lets make it free from propaganda.

Any new stats on >100K nations???

 

Geez man, didnt you read the recent update of the OP on the stats?  Did you even read everything before you posted?

 

When you stated that HB and Alpha and Omega will join the Equilibrium side, it was more of propaganda from you as HB had no M+ treaties with the Equilibrium side but had M+ treaties with the other side.  

 

Double standard from someone like you I suppose?  

[Secret]

For instance, if OBR joined on DH side, the upper tier would be lost and would be even more hilarious for Q.

 

Likewise, if OBR joined on the EQ side, it'd be one of those 'everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong' type of scenarios for the DH side.

 

Anyways, excellent analysis on the war even though I disagree with some of it. Hope you're able to continue updating this.

 

Thanks. 

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Likewise, if OBR joined on the EQ side, it'd be one of those 'everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong' type of scenarios for the DH side.

 

Anyways, excellent analysis on the war even though I disagree with some of it. Hope you're able to continue updating this.

 

Thanks. 

We're already past that phase, though. Everything that could have went wrong would have included NG on NPO-IRON's side.

[magicninja]

We're already past that phase, though. Everything that could have went wrong would have included NG on NPO-IRON's side.

 

Yeah I'd say we're closer to being on track for everything going right....considering the circumstances. A dogpile that let's us pick and choose our target, them having the good nature to let us beat up their upper tier, and then allowing NG to come over to our side. 

 

As for the upper tier fight in general.... I can't speak for anyone else really but GATO is doing great at the is point. Since we have nearly 20 around 100k+ There isn't an alliance on their side that hit our CnG pals that can measure up. As long as their "coalition" allows us to wreck one and move on.....they won't be able to stop us. That said they will continue to let us wreck alliance after alliance because they know perfectly well that HB is prepared to go in for us if we're countered up top. That is something their side can't afford. It's a catch 22. Damned if you and damned if you don't. They either have to let us keep decimating people or counter us and bring in HB. Tough choice. 

[Stetson76]

It's already the most lopsided dogpile in CN history, yet you still feel the need to add more AA's to the mix! Are you not seeing what is happening?

Speaking for the Upper Tier of the war, as this thread is titled, there will not be a single EQ nation over 110k when all is said and done. This is not propaganda or idle threat, this is a certainty. I'm not sure how many different ways it must be spelled out, but that spells disaster to me, as the 120+ range is my playground as it is for many of my allies.

The guy who posted about bring up a nation "just in range of the top nations" made my year by the way. See my war chart vs zangetsu if you need a preview of how that goes. I just fail to see how this current upper tier scenario wasn't envisioned by the EQ war planners (if such a job exists).

http://www.cybernations.net/war_information.asp?ID=714399

P.S. - I am dearly hoping one of the 30k peacemoders comments about how I'm currently in peace mode...

 

To be fair to Bob, you lost 40k NS in the time period you were fighting that guy.  If you were at the bottom of a theoretical DMZ, it would be plenty to drop you low enough that others could jump in.  Your performance against one nation was extremely impressive and you probably gave more damage than you took overall but in the end the goal wouldn't be to avoid damage it would be just to damage you enough to get you below the line.

 

I'm not saying the overall strategy would work but your reasoning for why it wouldn't is flawed.

 

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

To be fair to Bob, you lost 40k NS in the time period you were fighting that guy.  

 

Uh, to be completely even-handed that 40k NS definitely wasn't due to Zangetsu, and I'm positive that Cuba would agree that the price paid to have drawn Matt Miller out of peace mode was worth it.

[CubaQuerida]

To be fair to Bob, you lost 40k NS in the time period you were fighting that guy.  If you were at the bottom of a theoretical DMZ, it would be plenty to drop you low enough that others could jump in.  Your performance against one nation was extremely impressive and you probably gave more damage than you took overall but in the end the goal wouldn't be to avoid damage it would be just to damage you enough to get you below the line.

 

I'm not saying the overall strategy would work but your reasoning for why it wouldn't is flawed.

 

To be exact, I lost a total of 39k NS while fighting the absolute strongest nation the EQ side had to offer at me, 10k of which was recovered during the course of the war.  There are no other nations within 8000 tech of Bubbler Nation and he was the most competitive fighter I've faced, probably ever.  

 

The strategy of updeclaring with the intent of nuking and doing moderate damage to bring a nation into range of other nations is one I fully understand.  It's quite successful at certain NS ranges.  Here's the problem: the tactic of getting a smaller nation to do a kamikaze declare, drop a token nuke and hopefully win an air battle here and there and hope to ding the NS of super tier nations is a whole different beast; and what I've been trying to explain for 8 pages now, is that nation will be decimated in the process, especially if the NS was from high infra.

 

I don't feel compelled to argue this with words that just come off sounding arrogant, take a look around, and see for yourself.  The war will probably not be won from the super tier alone, but if <100k is considered the EQ shark tank, you might as well consider over 100k the EQ graveyard.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

Color me shocked that EQ nations can't make a dent on our strongest fighters.

[Vespassianus]

Yeah I'd say we're closer to being on track for everything going right....considering the circumstances. A dogpile that let's us pick and choose our target, them having the good nature to let us beat up their upper tier, and then allowing NG to come over to our side. 

 

As for the upper tier fight in general.... I can't speak for anyone else really but GATO is doing great at the is point. Since we have nearly 20 around 100k+ There isn't an alliance on their side that hit our CnG pals that can measure up. As long as their "coalition" allows us to wreck one and move on.....they won't be able to stop us. That said they will continue to let us wreck alliance after alliance because they know perfectly well that HB is prepared to go in for us if we're countered up top. That is something their side can't afford. It's a catch 22. Damned if you and damned if you don't. They either have to let us keep decimating people or counter us and bring in HB. Tough choice. 

 

To be fair C&G doesn't really fight at high tier, most of the heavy lifting is done by NG. With NG's help you could crush SF/XX/AB high tier, what's not so active and skilled, but you rather choose avoiding damage. I don't get it, because when you have a chance to win you throw it away and piss off NG by not fighting. If they get tired of it and after some rounds they call it a day and leave you, well you won't be happy

 

Let's see by alliances:

1. INT: they have 5 100k-ish nations, all in peace mode. At least in the start of the fight they had their big boys to fight, but now it's not so tough.

2. ODN: 13 over 100k, all in peace mode, another 13 between 80-100k, 2 in war mode. ODN had a few guys out when they started the war, but nothing since then.

3. TLR: 7 guys over 100k, 3 in war mode. but their top 2 is in war mode  and don't even have wars. 10 nations between 80-100k, 7 in war mode and seem to be fighting.

4. GATO: 17 guys over 100k, and only 5 in peace mode. but 12 war mode guy declared totally 11 wars so far. It's not a thing to be really proud of... Another 15 nations between 80-100k, 6 in peace mode, but most of thems seem to be fighting.

 

So let's say that C&G shouldn't brag about this war, none expected them to fight the endless mid-low tier of SF/XX/AB but there are plenty of high tier targets out there and they could win there, but they aren't really trying. And NG is good, but lonely it won't easy to win to whole war for you...

 

Edit: also maybe C&G man up at today's update, but i doubt it.
 

Edited February 10, 2013 by Vespassianus

[Longshadow]

I don't feel compelled to argue this with words that just come off sounding arrogant, take a look around, and see for yourself.  The war will probably not be won from the super tier alone, but if <100k is considered the EQ shark tank, you might as well consider over 100k the EQ graveyard.

 

This I think is the main thing, some people have touched on this idea already but I think its fair to say where eQ has its strength and where DH has its strength.

[scytale]

Thanks for the answers to my prior question about what I now know is being called the "DMZ"

 

As mentioned by many, let's keep this thread clean as possible from politics.  It's my only oasis on the OWF.  :)

[steodonn]

Your 1K nations will be triple piled.

 

Your 10K nations will be triple ganged.

 

Your 20K nations will also be triple piled.

 

Your 30K nations will also be triple ganged.

 

Triple ganged might not be enough they way some of the enemies nations are down here 

[King Louis the II]

 
Geez man, didnt you read the recent update of the OP on the stats?  Did you even read everything before you posted?
 
When you stated that HB and Alpha and Omega will join the Equilibrium side, it was more of propaganda from you as HB had no M+ treaties with the Equilibrium side but had M+ treaties with the other side.  
 
Double standard from someone like you I suppose?  

You are a fool.*

I didnt say that they will join Q.

The comment was in the context of the numbers. What I mentioned is there are still a lot of micros with handfull of over 100k nations that could bandwagon the Q side. Completely hypothetical. Will this really happen? Probably not. If it happens will it turn the tide on over 100k ? Difficult to say. As I mentioned the only alliances that really could turn the tide would be OBR and Creole (former Fark/Polar protectorate). Will they join the war? Probably not.

Regarding HB, yes I cited it wrongly. Regarding Alpha Omega I think they wouldnt join Q per se, but I doubt that they wouldnt respond if Sparta asked them to joing against TLR for example. Will this happen? Difficult to say.

I am not being biased here. In fact, I think the war is going pretty well for DH side as they have a great number of >100k in PM.

The >100k PM nations from ODN, GATO, TLR will certainly make a huge damage when they enter the war.

You are a defensive clown.*


Edit: * I withdraw the lines where I called you a fool and a clown. No need for that specially here. I apologize. Edited February 10, 2013 by King Louis the II

[magicninja]

To be fair C&G doesn't really fight at high tier, most of the heavy lifting is done by NG. With NG's help you could crush SF/XX/AB high tier, what's not so active and skilled, but you rather choose avoiding damage. I don't get it, because when you have a chance to win you throw it away and piss off NG by not fighting. If they get tired of it and after some rounds they call it a day and leave you, well you won't be happy

 

Let's see by alliances:

1. INT: they have 5 100k-ish nations, all in peace mode. At least in the start of the fight they had their big boys to fight, but now it's not so tough.

2. ODN: 13 over 100k, all in peace mode, another 13 between 80-100k, 2 in war mode. ODN had a few guys out when they started the war, but nothing since then.

3. TLR: 7 guys over 100k, 3 in war mode. but their top 2 is in war mode  and don't even have wars. 10 nations between 80-100k, 7 in war mode and seem to be fighting.

4. GATO: 17 guys over 100k, and only 5 in peace mode. but 12 war mode guy declared totally 11 wars so far. It's not a thing to be really proud of... Another 15 nations between 80-100k, 6 in peace mode, but most of thems seem to be fighting.

 

So let's say that C&G shouldn't brag about this war, none expected them to fight the endless mid-low tier of SF/XX/AB but there are plenty of high tier targets out there and they could win there, but they aren't really trying. And NG is good, but lonely it won't easy to win to whole war for you...

 

Edit: also maybe C&G man up at today's update, but i doubt it.
 

 

I said I could only speak for GATO which by your representation says we're doing alright as well. We were asked to hit someone...we hit them. That they don't have the targets to go around isn't my fault. Don't worry we'll continue wrecking alliances.

[Geerland]

 
To be fair C&G doesn't really fight at high tier, most of the heavy lifting is done by NG. With NG's help you could crush SF/XX/AB high tier, what's not so active and skilled, but you rather choose avoiding damage. I don't get it, because when you have a chance to win you throw it away and piss off NG by not fighting. If they get tired of it and after some rounds they call it a day and leave you, well you won't be happy
 
Let's see by alliances:
1. INT: they have 5 100k-ish nations, all in peace mode. At least in the start of the fight they had their big boys to fight, but now it's not so tough.
2. ODN: 13 over 100k, all in peace mode, another 13 between 80-100k, 2 in war mode. ODN had a few guys out when they started the war, but nothing since then.
3. TLR: 7 guys over 100k, 3 in war mode. but their top 2 is in war mode  and don't even have wars. 10 nations between 80-100k, 7 in war mode and seem to be fighting.
4. GATO: 17 guys over 100k, and only 5 in peace mode. but 12 war mode guy declared totally 11 wars so far. It's not a thing to be really proud of... Another 15 nations between 80-100k, 6 in peace mode, but most of thems seem to be fighting.
 
So let's say that C&G shouldn't brag about this war, none expected them to fight the endless mid-low tier of SF/XX/AB but there are plenty of high tier targets out there and they could win there, but they aren't really trying. And NG is good, but lonely it won't easy to win to whole war for you...
 
Edit: also maybe C&G man up at today's update, but i doubt it.
 

Vesp, we had 11 100k+ out of peace mode, they are all now in the 70-90k range. You can't say that we didn't fight, and the same with Int; it's just that our upper tiers were hugely outnumbered until TLR/GATO came in.