An Announcement from TLR and NPO

[D34th]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1330850652' post='2933089']
Alright I can understand the confusion. TLR and NPO have opted to have some fun with this treaty. Due to this many look at it and the situation as one without real merit of meat of functionality. This is due to a good amount of assumptions and porch political review. Yes we (NPO and TLR) fostered this by again, having a good time. But since people want to get all serious, let do that shall we?

Point 1 - Friends.
Friends =/= treaty, yet every treaty should contain an element of friendship. It was through this 'friendship' TLR and NPO were able to address issues of the past, current and possible future without getting hung up in some stupid vendetta or belief about what something from the past was about. It allows an understanding that a circle of influence is not the same as every alliance in that circle being identical in beliefs etc. Tone, which can only be properly witnessed in verbal communication like Skype and similar is the key factor in many of the aforementioned understandings. So while this is not the be all end all, it certainly has its place. Furthermore such forms of communication do not take away from the politics of this game, they enhance it.

[b]Had the NPO offered up communication post Karma we may not have seen the pre-empt by DH against us[/b] (this is speculation and certainly people will argue both ways). I don't care which side you end up on, the fact is the NPO didn't communicate and in the past when the NPO didn't it was plotting against you. Truth be told any perception not addressed becomes a reality. Yes Skype and these other mediums allowed us a more dynamic approach for our FA. Basic communication leads to basic understandings leads to a potential for increased relations and familiarity thus this worlds version of friends.
[/quote]

Besides all the talk about how skype is important to do FA(I imagine that sometime in future people will say that real meetings will be important to do a good FA.) I'll remember you why NPO was attacked by DH:

[quote name='Archon' timestamp='1295928088' post='2597854']
We cannot allow any chance of a return to power by the New Pacific Order.
[/quote]

Now if you think that war was NPO' fault and want to transform DH in victims of your lack of communication, shame on you.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1330850652' post='2933089']
Point 2 - Benefit
I am speaking of the NPO's benefit as TLR has already shared some of theirs. Mutual benefit is vital in any treaty and this certainly exists in this treaty. The NPO has no problem stating we have the benefit of additional firepower potentially extending beyond our immediate treaty should the need arise. We have connection to a traditional "side" that wanted us dead. Call it a buffer, a link, a bridge whatever suits your needs, but yes we recognize this, accept it and knew it going in.

[b]Simple fact is the NPO is more protected now.[/b] Its FA influence has grown, its extended military reach has grown. When situations arise, we have more options to choose from, more avenues to explore and a much greater control of our alliances future. [b]I was open and honest when I said the NPO's goal (which overall has never changed) is to be number one militarily, economically and politically.[/b] The difference is what we are willing to do to get there. I will not apologize, chastise or demean the efforts, and lets call them selfish efforts, by both TLR and NPO to achieve their goals. Everything in this treaty simply puts to words the mutual benefit we both share with complete knowledge of the others selfish benefit.
[/quote]

Yes, you're more protected now, protected against TLR friends, the same people who rolled you in past, but just while you remain TLR friends and while this friendship is interesting for DH. Regarding being number one, if I were you I would not say that, see the Archon quote above and remember why you were rolled last time and you'll understand that being Nº1 and indirectly allied with PB/DH are mutually exclusive.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1330850652' post='2933089']
Point 3 - Risk
By being friendly(s) and being in constant communication about goals and benefits, each of us is able to acknowledge address and determine our comfort in risk levels. Every treaty, every relationship holds risk. You basically trade one risk for another, yet if done right you are still able to move upward and forward. While certainly there are "risks" of allies of allies creating problems, that doesn't change this treaty is about NPO and TLR. [b]This is why non-chaining clauses exists. It gives the allowance any reasonable person would want to review a situation and act in the best interest of their alliance.[/b]

One aspect was focused on as if the other aspects of the treaty don't exist - this is a shame. With so many people who pride themselves (this is for all of CN and doesn't point a finger at those for or against this treaty) on being FA savy, having TLR and NPO explain this is more than just some lolzy friendship is a shame. The fact neither of us have denied mutual benefit, gains and such should have told you this was more than just a friendship. Looking at TLR and NPO without their treaty to each other its pretty obvious this is just good sense. Again to harp on this is pro anyone that is not NPO and TLR is propaganda poppycock. Because in the end both alliances will do what is best to further and protect their alliances interests.
[/quote]

Disagree even a little about what those power want you to do in the next coalition war and you'll be back to the target list, simple like that, in DH/PB world the motto is: [i]“The Nail That Sticks Out Gets Hammered”[/i] OBS: DH/PB, if you use this phrase I'll want royalties.

[Stewie]

Mindless hailing of friends and allies coming together!

TLR-NPO MADP 2013



TLR

[Monster]

tbh that was just archon being dramatic. I've already given the real reasons for doing it. Rhetorical flourish, if you will.

If the whole "attacked for no raisin" stuff was true, it'd have happened before VE-NpO war broke out.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Roquentin

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330852285' post='2933099']
Let's go through it: No GR influence basically. LOST was smaller. Rush is like a god there. NPO plan originating from Athens goes through. Jgoods. Extreme amounts of trash talk.
[/quote]

In all fairness, a lot of your points are extremely arbitrary and cherrypicked. Even further, you're using cherry picked arguments to create a sweeping generalization. Not exactly the best way to go about this.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330852285' post='2933099']
Rush is like a god there.
[/quote]
haha yeah sure whatever you say, maybe you would be kind enough to spend some time within TLR before spouting such patently erroneous stuff. You mistake respect for Rush as blind faith, however I think you will agree there is a considerable difference between respect/deference and following someone blindly.


[quote]NPO plan originating from Athens goes through.[/quote]
Just because the the idea of possessing a treaty was once raised in Athens does not negate the facts that TLR and NPO have cultivated closer relations for quite some time. Did Athens have some sort of copyright in regards to this idea that we are unaware of?

Edited March 4, 2012 by Cataduanes

[Monster]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1330852698' post='2933105']
In all fairness, a lot of your points are extremely arbitrary and cherrypicked. Even further, you're using cherry picked arguments to create a sweeping generalization. Not exactly the best way to go about this.
[/quote]

I don't really see how they're arbritary. Athens is the basis for the NPO relationship for instance. None of GR's treaties were carried over. So it turns into LOST vs Athens into influence and it seems Mandellav and co. have fully absorbed the dominant culture.

[Cataduanes]

Also forgot to say Yay for NPO and ourselves, I personally am very pleased to have finally got this treaty upgraded.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330852872' post='2933108']
and it seems...
[/quote]
Yeah there seems to be a lot of assumptions in your analysis of TLR and this treaty.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Cataduanes

[Crymson]

Good deal. Congrats.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Crymson

[Monster]

Okay, so if Rush and co. vanished as soon as TLR was formed, would there have been a treaty? As I recall shamed was against the ODP.

Anyway, that's kind of getting off my main track of thought.

The reason I don't like the treaty is because it gives MK more power or that's how they see it. That is why they are cheering it on.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Roquentin

[Pingu]

Roq, I think everyone understands who has waded this far through the discussion that you don't like or approve of this treaty. I suspect there is no-one who needs any more convincing on that score. So you can probably dedicate your efforts to another discussion somewhere else now.



I'm surprisingly OK with this treaty.

[Monster]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1330857110' post='2933126']
Roq, I think everyone understands who has waded this far through the discussion that you don't like or approve of this treaty. I suspect there is no-one who needs any more convincing on that score. So you can probably dedicate your efforts to another discussion somewhere else now.



I'm surprisingly OK with this treaty.
[/quote]

The whole having to explain how TLR is Athens 2.0 kind of derailed the main point though. The why is the most important thing. People who looked upon it uncritically simply said "congrats" even though they were joining a chorus of people they hate.

[Jgoods45]

While it's nice to see that the influence of Athens extends beyond the grave, it's simply not the case here. TLR is anything but Athens 2.0. This is evident in our democratic government structure, our well thought out policies and our distinct lack of telling someone "to do something about it" in an official capacity!

What remains the same is our commitment to our allies and unfortunately for you, that includes the MK. This treaty has been a long time coming and we are very pleased to see it signed and announced to the world to signify the strong bonds between our two alliances.

[IYIyTh]

Well there were two other alternatives, one was to say nothing and the other hasn't proven to be very successful ITT.

As I said earlier and has been reiterated, I think this clashes a little bit with practicality and purpose for both parties.
I think you should give Brehon a shot. The worst he could do is disappoint.

Edit: But seriously you guys are Athens 2.0

Edited March 4, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330857985' post='2933135']
Well there were two other alternatives, one was to say nothing and the other hasn't proven to be very successful ITT.

As I said earlier and has been reiterated, I think this clashes a little bit with practicality and purpose for both parties.
I think you should give Brehon a shot. The worst he could do is disappoint.

Edit: But seriously you guys are Athens 2.0
[/quote]

How exactly?

And is that a good thing or a bad thing? :v

[Stefano Palmieri]

[center][img]http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z405/xMaverick87x/tlrnpo.jpg[/img][/center]

I, for one, am extremely pleased by this treaty. But if for some reason we have to defend the Ponies because of this treaty, Farrin better be ZI'd.

Also congrats Roq on making this all about you and raving on when you clearly have no idea about our internal workings (I mean hell, the person who suggested the ODP in the first place wasn't even from Athens). So I suggest you get your facts right or you will just continue to making yourself look more idiotic.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Stefano Palmieri

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1330858222' post='2933136']
How exactly?

And is that a good thing or a bad thing? :v
[/quote]

Really, all you're missing is Jack Diorno rsux and Londo, and the llama has been cheering this on for quite some time from Mt. Olympus.

It's not good or bad, I just view you as the same because your culture in private and public is the same.

[Farrin Xies]

Rush is indeed a god. I have facts to back this up, as a matter of fact:

1. He's old enough that he predates any god that I know of.
2. He walks with exuberant confidence.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1330846682' post='2933058']
two things:

- lol roq
- lol schatt
- this treaty is awesomely themed
[/quote]

Thats three

[memoryproblems]

Nice treaty.

You two [i]deserve[/i] each other.

[Land of True Israel]

Interesting mixture. I wish both parties the best of luck o/

[Colonel Heinrich]

Congratulations to The New Pacific Order!

[Voytek]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1330858906' post='2933141']
Thats three
[/quote]
[img]http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4173/hackingn.jpg[/img]
ok sherlock

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1330860982' post='2933148']
[img]http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4173/hackingn.jpg[/img]
ok sherlock
[/quote]

Two things,

- Your not very good at counting.
- You seem to take offense to being told your not very good at counting.
- What does his sig have anything to do with it?

[Brenann]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330852443' post='2933101']
Besides all the talk about how skype is important to do FA(I imagine that sometime in future people will say that real meetings will be important to do a good FA.) I'll remember you why NPO was attacked by DH:

Now if you think that war was NPO' fault and want to transform DH in victims of your lack of communication, shame on you.[/quote]

Brehon already addressed this part. A quiet NPO is a plotting NPO. At least that is what the general consensus is of the world leading up to the DH pre-empt.

Once we started talking to people and actually dealing with issues people fell into one of three camps. Those that started to warm up to the new leadership, those that were happy settling old grudges and letting everyone live and let live and then there are those who got even more rabid about use being alive and talking. BUT at least we all knew where we stood and where we could make in-roads in the world politics after being blacklisted for so long. The result? Fark and FAN took a bite and got more than they bargained for.

[quote]Yes, you're more protected now, protected against TLR friends, the same people who rolled you in past, but just while you remain TLR friends and while this friendship is interesting for DH. Regarding being number one, if I were you I would not say that, see the Archon quote above and remember why you were rolled last time and you'll understand that being Nº1 and indirectly allied with PB/DH are mutually exclusive.[/quote]

And before we made these in roads into discussing and new relationships we were a target for everyone. Right now there is not an outside force that poses a threat to the NPO directly that can come at us with out some VERY solid reasoning. Those who wanted us dead in the past now have to deal with the NPO and the conflict of the TLR treaty. This adds a political layer that we did not have nor seek out after karma.

I also want to address the fact that if we didnt talk or work with those who have rolled us in the past we would never get back into the world at all. We have literally pissed off almost every alliance in existence, we have been rolled by almost everyone. The list of who we have not fought or pissed off in the past is a very very short list that wont let us attain our goals of being the top alliance in the game. There are some alliances who refuse to change or address the issues and they seem to be getting rolled at least every year like clock work.

[quote]Disagree even a little about what those power want you to do in the next coalition war and you'll be back to the target list, simple like that, in DH/PB world the motto is: [i]“The Nail That Sticks Out Gets Hammered”[/i] OBS: DH/PB, if you use this phrase I'll want royalties.
[/quote]

If you think that the NPO leadership will follow blindly and not watch for indications that we will be burned because we dont follow along like lap dogs then you are sorely mistaken. Everything after karma has made us some very paranoid !@#$%^&*. Besides I would love to see the person who wants to try and pull the wool over our Emperor and his Officer's eyes.

[Hiro Nakara]

Congratulations NPO, nice treaty.