The Overtime Accords

[Lukapaka]

I'm glad to see such a long engagement finally have an expiration date. Not incredibly impressed with the terms, but I suppose this round's masters of war agreed it is the cost for peace.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1304403987' post='2704950']
I thought hipsters were a type of pants. I'm assuming it's short for hippy!

OOC: I suspect I'm letting my un-Americanness come through here.
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipster_%28contemporary_subculture%29

East London is full of Hipsters

[mrwuss]

And with this wonderful news the best thread to ever exist was born.

The entertainment from words spoke here will be a lifelong amusement.

Perhaps even a mini series.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304404423' post='2704959']
If I tell you that I'm going to mug you if you dare walk out onto the street, that doesn't suddenly make it right when I mug you.
[/quote]
It does if you own the street.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL3.jpg[/img]

[Alterego]

LOL, 6 month NAP/ODP in the same document saying they have to have their upper tier destroyed first. I guess NPO and Co learned nothing. I see no mention of NPO and co getting a clean slate in the surrender. It was mentioned over and over in this war that a clean start for NPO was never specifically spelled out in the karma surrender there fore they are open to attacks for past crimes again and again. The DoW said NPO will never be allowed to rebuild. Can they expect another war for the same past crimes some time after the 6 months end.

[JoshuaR]

Why do you people always shake in your boots? I am a real man; I wear slippers when I am CyberNation-ing.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1304404409' post='2704958']
That's all well and good, if someone is just aggressively attacking GOONS. But GOONS started the war, others came in on defense, and attacked GOONS because it made the most sense. Most of don't really care that GOONS has a policy in place, nor, for that matter, are most of us complaining about having to pay them. Most people just don't believe the reparations to be in any way justified in these circumstances, and just saying "but we told you ahead of time there would be reparations!" really doesn't change that, or have any relevance in most people's minds. The presence of an action does not justify that action, nor does the declared intent to carry out an action justify that action. Yes, it is subjective, but all that you are saying, if you are just being objective, is that reps were going to be given and we all knew that. But that's not being debated or discussed, because [i]we already knew that.[/i] Repeating it over and over again adds nothing to the conversation.

On a related note, the pedant in me dies a little bit every time these are referred to as "reparations."
[/quote]
I don't see how people can think GOONS policy would not come into affect in the situation that they attack and damage GOONS.
GOONS has a clear cut policy, you DOW GOONS and do damage you pay reps. Nowhere does it state that if you come in on a treaty to defend an ally and atack GOONS who offensively declared war that you are exempt from GOONS reparations policy.

In fact it has been explicitly stated that GOONS' policy remains in affect for everyone who attacks GOONS, even in defense of an ally.

Justified is a moral term, and all morality is subjective. What I find morally acceptable, you might not. And a 3rd person might disagree with both your and my moral views on things as well. There is no standard for moralism, it is a "feeling", one that has no basis in logic and therefor must be dismissed if you plan on examining a situation logically and objectively.

If you have no plan of examining a situation objectively or logically, than by all means spout your moralist arguments. Just know that just as you have views on what you think is moral behavior, such views are not universally shared, and you cannot have a logical argument to prove who is right. Some believe reparations are fine, others believe they are an injustice, while others still believe in some reparations but think GOONS is getting too much. Arguing any of these points serves no purpose as there are no facts, no logic, to back up any points raised in such arguments.

[Crowdog07]

Glad we finally get to do this.

[Brehon]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1304404708' post='2704965']
LOL, 6 month NAP/ODP in the same document saying they have to have their upper tier destroyed first. I guess NPO and Co learned nothing. I see no mention of NPO and co getting a clean slate in the surrender. It was mentioned over and over in this war that a clean start for NPO was never specifically spelled out in the karma surrender there fore they are open to attacks for past crimes again and again. The DoW said NPO will never be allowed to rebuild. Can they expect another war for the same past crimes some time after the 6 months end.
[/quote]

Most comments I let go because they are just not worth it. Learned nothing? Have you not seen the world around you? When in the last few years has a written document or agreement held any kind of water. What you want a document that states the NPO has a clean slate? What will it mean? NOTHING. If we go off the declaration from Doomhouse, we wouldn't be at this stage either because you know "everything must burn".

People left and right on this forum talk trash and run their mouths. There are maybe one or two that haven't eaten the sole of their shoes. If the New Pacific Order wants to move forward, it is up to us to do it by action and not rely on some words on a document. The only way we wont be able to rebuild is if we refuse to. I am not afraid of karma, not afraid of the past and not afraid of the future, because I trust in the abilities of my alliance. The rest is all filler for someones soapbox.

[Caliph]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304404423' post='2704959']
If I tell you that I'm going to mug you if you dare walk out onto the street, that doesn't suddenly make it right when I mug you. I know, this is a difficult concept for you, the idea that announcing you're going to do something wrong does not suddenly change the fact that it is wrong. I know GOONS has this whole sense of entitlement, where you have a little bubble shield where nobody is allowed to attack you no matter what crimes you commit. But you're flat out wrong on multiple levels here.
[/quote]
Except this is not at all what happened.

GOONS tells everyone that if they attack GOONS they will have to compensate GOONS for their actions.
GOONS and NPO are scrapping when a bunch of NPO's friends jump in and start attacking GOONS. GOONS policy comes into affect as a direct result of being attacked by NPO's friends.

GOONS told everyone "you do X, we do Y".
NPO's friends did X.
GOONS does Y.

Very simple, very logical, and it completely shoots your argument out of the water because if NPO's allies didn't attack GOONS they wouldn't have to pay reps to GOONS.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1304405375' post='2704971']
Except this is not at all what happened.

GOONS tells everyone that if they attack GOONS they will have to compensate GOONS for their actions.
GOONS and NPO are scrapping when a bunch of NPO's friends jump in and start attacking GOONS. GOONS policy comes into affect as a direct result of being attacked by NPO's friends.

GOONS told everyone "you do X, we do Y".
NPO's friends did X.
GOONS does Y.

Very simple, very logical, and it completely shoots your argument out of the water because if NPO's allies didn't attack GOONS they wouldn't have to pay reps to GOONS.
[/quote]
Pray tell why GOONS is somehow immune to criticism for their actions just because they announce ahead of time the crimes they intend to commit? By what strange breed of 'logic' is this a factual statement? Work with me here.


FOR THE RECORD: Nobody is surprised at the crimes GOONS committed because, holy !@#$, they announced they would commit these crimes. I am talking about [i]justification[/i] and I have every right to speak out against unjustified extortion.

Edited May 3, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[In Spades]

I would argue that the reps GOONs are imposing are harsh and derp dee derp dee derp... But the butthurt factor here on both sides either defending or supporting it makes it too damn funny.

Tempted to join NPO just for the extended war factor.

Here's to another 199 page thread

Edited May 3, 2011 by In Spades

[Heft]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1304405112' post='2704968']
I don't see how people can think GOONS policy would not come into affect in the situation that they attack and damage GOONS.
GOONS has a clear cut policy, you DOW GOONS and do damage you pay reps. Nowhere does it state that if you come in on a treaty to defend an ally and atack GOONS who offensively declared war that you are exempt from GOONS reparations policy.

In fact it has been explicitly stated that GOONS' policy remains in affect for everyone who attacks GOONS, even in defense of an ally.

Justified is a moral term, and all morality is subjective. What I find morally acceptable, you might not. And a 3rd person might disagree with both your and my moral views on things as well. There is no standard for moralism, it is a "feeling", one that has no basis in logic and therefor must be dismissed if you plan on examining a situation logically and objectively.

If you have no plan of examining a situation objectively or logically, than by all means spout your moralist arguments. Just know that just as you have views on what you think is moral behavior, such views are not universally shared, and you cannot have a logical argument to prove who is right. Some believe reparations are fine, others believe they are an injustice, while others still believe in some reparations but think GOONS is getting too much. Arguing any of these points serves no purpose as there are no facts, no logic, to back up any points raised in such arguments.
[/quote]
By stating that these payments are unjustified, people are implicitly (or explicitly, in a few cases) disagreeing with GOONS' policy. That the policy to take certain actions exists does not justify those actions in most people's eyes, and for most people the presence of a stated policy has little relevance when evaluating whether or not a course of action was justified.

Objectively, all that can be said is that the policy exists and the policy was followed. There is nothing to discuss there. If you can't move past that most superficial level of discussion then there is no point in joining the conversation.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304405501' post='2704972']
Pray tell why GOONS is somehow immune to criticism for their actions just because they announce ahead of time the crimes they intend to commit? By what strange breed of 'logic' is this a factual statement? Work with me here.
[/quote]

Actual logic (modus ponuns [sp] in the example you quoted).You're speaking to premise validity. Two different things.


Also, glad to see this finally announced.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304404642' post='2704964']
It does if you own the street.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL3.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
And it comes full circle to "might makes right"

Well, you'd better pray real hard to Admin that you never find yourself on the receiving end. It probably won't be our fractured side of the web, but whoever does finally oust you lot, is going to make you suffer ten times everything you've done while in power, and things like these terms are going to be their justification. It's the lesson of Karma that you lot continually demonstrate you never learned.

[HeroofTime55]

edit: nvm

Edited May 3, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[Ameroca]

I find it hard to believe this argument is merely an ethical discussion of the policy of using reparations as a weapon, defensive or otherwise, and [i]not[/i] complaining about the terms signed based on the context of being in the same thread as those terms. I also find these alliances' desire for a lasting peace suspect when they undermine the agreement with such actions.

Perhaps you will find a more suitable audience for such a discussion in another, more philosphical thread?

[Mason]

I appreciate everyone who enjoys showcasing their vocabulary skills, but the meat of it is that the argument isn't so much about reps as it is the amount of reps. Extortion is the word that comes to mind. I have no stake in this, so this is just an observation. We talk about finding a balance in this world and examining ways to maintain our population. How is this helping exactly? At this point, it's not really about who was wrong when the war started. It's just as easy for the victors to become the losers in the long term based on extorting reps of this magnitude, and argue all you want...there is no justification. But, since we're analyzing the context of the word "justification", the reality is that this is something that can only have a negative impact on the survival of our planet as a whole. In this case, the question isn't whether or not one alliance or coalition is justified to impose reps, but if it's worth it for all of us.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304406027' post='2704978']
And it comes full circle to "might makes right"[/quote]
If you own the street I'm trespassing on, and you warned me you'd crack me one for trespassing, I deserve it. It's not might makes right, it's called "don't start none, there won't be none." Nobody forced all those alliances to attack GOONs and only GOONs. If they didn't want to pay reps they could've attacked MK, Umbrella, or FAN. But they didn't. I don't see why this logic isn't clicking. It's not even difficult to understand. Everyone knew what they were getting into in advance. It's not us pulling something over on everyone. It's you and those other alliances seeing if we meant what we said, and getting all up-in-arms when it turns out we weren't just blowing hot air. The only person you can blame is yourselves for jumping in shark-infested waters and being surprised when you got eaten by sharks.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L5.jpg[/img]

[Heft]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304406550' post='2704986']
If you own the street I'm trespassing on, and you warned me you'd crack me one for trespassing, I deserve it. It's not might makes right, it's called "don't start none, there won't be none." Nobody forced all those alliances to attack GOONs and only GOONs. If they didn't want to pay reps they could've attacked MK, Umbrella, or FAN. But they didn't. I don't see why this logic isn't clicking. It's not even difficult to understand. Everyone knew what they were getting into in advance. It's not us pulling something over on everyone. It's you and those other alliances seeing if we meant what we said, and getting all up-in-arms when it turns out we weren't just blowing hot air. The only person you can blame is yourselves for jumping in shark-infested waters and being surprised when you got eaten by sharks.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L5.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I'm going to help run this analogy into the ground, okay?

Next time, don't build a street under people's feet and then tell them they're trespassing.

[Hereno]

I'm glad to see everything finally ending, if only because it means the next cycle of rebuilding, brooding, and blowing it all up again can commence.

[mrwuss]

Reps are being paid to us because we said so, if you don't like it then do something about it so you can pay us reps too.

[alyster]

Thank you the coalition, I just wish the end could have been better for you guys...

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304406550' post='2704986']
If you own the street I'm trespassing on, and you warned me you'd crack me one for trespassing, I deserve it. It's not might makes right, it's called "don't start none, there won't be none." Nobody forced all those alliances to attack GOONs and only GOONs. If they didn't want to pay reps they could've attacked MK, Umbrella, or FAN. But they didn't. I don't see why this logic isn't clicking. It's not even difficult to understand. Everyone knew what they were getting into in advance. It's not us pulling something over on everyone. It's you and those other alliances seeing if we meant what we said, and getting all up-in-arms when it turns out we weren't just blowing hot air. The only person you can blame is yourselves for jumping in shark-infested waters and being surprised when you got eaten by sharks.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L5.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
OK, but you don't own the planet. You think you do, strutting about with your smug sense of superiority, but you don't. In the end we are all accountable for our actions. One day, you will get yours. And unlike us, your house will (for the second time) fold with incredible velocity, once your numbers find they are no longer able to collect "pubbie tears," whilst drowning in their own.

What you fail to understand, is that we aren't surprised. We did know that you would extort us. But it doesn't make the extortion right. And it certainly does not grant you some sort of magical immunity where we can't point out what you've done.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1304406790' post='2704989']
I'm going to help run this analogy into the ground, okay?

Next time, don't build a street under people's feet and then tell them they're trespassing.
[/quote]
All the alliances had every ability to not attack us. Their hands were not forced in attacking GOONs. They knew doing so would result in reps, but did so anyway. We built no roads underneath their feet. They saw it being built months ago and came over on their own free will. You can make the argument that they had to act and hit [i][b]someone[/b][/i], but that someone didn't have to be GOONs. So expecting to hit GOONs and not pay reps is just idiotic. I'll make it super simple: If you attack GOONs you pay reps. Period. No other factors. Doesn't matter what your motivation or reason is. You're paying. Don't like it? Don't attack us.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L9.jpg[/img]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304407091' post='2704994']
OK, but you don't own the planet. You think you do, strutting about with your smug sense of superiority, but you don't. In the end we are all accountable for our actions. One day, you will get yours. And unlike us, your house will (for the second time) fold with incredible velocity, once your numbers find they are no longer able to collect "pubbie tears," whilst drowning in their own.

What you fail to understand, is that we aren't surprised. We did know that you would extort us. But it doesn't make the extortion right. And it certainly does not grant you some sort of magical immunity where we can't point out what you've done.
[/quote]
As your argument as degraded into the same tired "You'll get yours one day!" I'll just acknowledge your response and move on.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9L1.jpg[/img]

Edited May 3, 2011 by Beefspari