The Overtime Accords

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304407153' post='2704995']
As your argument as degraded into the same tired "You'll get yours one day!" I'll just acknowledge your response and move on.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9L1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
For your educational benefit, I shall repeat the part of my post directly relevant to the discussion:

"What you fail to understand, is that we aren't surprised. We did know that you would extort us. But it doesn't make the extortion right. And it certainly does not grant you some sort of magical immunity where we can't point out what you've done."

Edit:


[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304407153' post='2704995']
All the alliances had every ability to not attack us. Their hands were not forced in attacking GOONs. They knew doing so would result in reps, but did so anyway. We built no roads underneath their feet. They saw it being built months ago and came over on their own free will. You can make the argument that they had to act and hit [i][b]someone[/b][/i], but that someone didn't have to be GOONs. So expecting to hit GOONs and not pay reps is just idiotic. I'll make it super simple: If you attack GOONs you pay reps. Period. No other factors. Doesn't matter what your motivation or reason is. You're paying. Don't like it? Don't attack us.
[/quote]
You know, I was going to leave Heft to this, but, this road analogy just couldn't be more perfect, really.

You [i]knew[/i] that by attacking NPO, our only course of action was to respond as per our treaties with Pacifica. No, we didn't have a choice in the matter. At least, the vast, overwhelming majority of us didn't. Our hand, were, in fact, forced, by the acts of GOONS. I mean, I suppose in GOONS' world view, you don't have to actually honor the agreements you sign, but, you know, most of us over here who aren't leeching of the power structure have a sense of honesty and integrity about the way we conduct business.

You quite literally built a road under our feet along the path we were forced to take.

Edited May 3, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[KingEsus]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1304395134' post='2704655']
Alliances who were just defending their allies paying reparations for 5 months, CoJ apologizing for a act of war during one war, "limited" curbstomp...

What A Wonderful World. [img]http://www.numberones.com.br/public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Very unfair to the defeated forces, but then life isn't. A case of 'Vae Victus' i suppose.

edit: in quote.

Edited May 3, 2011 by KingEsus

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304407411' post='2704996']
For your educational benefit, I shall repeat the part of my post directly relevant to the discussion:

"What you fail to understand, is that we aren't surprised. We did know that you would extort us. But it doesn't make the extortion right. And it certainly does not grant you some sort of magical immunity where we can't point out what you've done."
[/quote]
If you did it knowing you'd be made to pay reps just so you could try and martyr yourselves and complain about it, I have even [i][b]less[/b][/i] sympathy for you.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris-_-L1.jpg[/img]

[ControlVolume]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304407411' post='2704996']
For your educational benefit, I shall repeat the part of my post directly relevant to the discussion:

"What you fail to understand, is that we aren't surprised. We did know that you would extort us. But it doesn't make the extortion right. And it certainly does not grant you some sort of magical immunity where we can't point out what you've done."
[/quote]
So basically what you're saying is that you attacked us so you could complain about ~extortion~ later. Gotcha, thanks.

[Denial]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1304405193' post='2704970']
Most comments I let go because they are just not worth it. Learned nothing? Have you not seen the world around you? When in the last few years has a written document or agreement held any kind of water. What you want a document that states the NPO has a clean slate? What will it mean? NOTHING. If we go off the declaration from Doomhouse, we wouldn't be at this stage either because you know "everything must burn".

People left and right on this forum talk trash and run their mouths. There are maybe one or two that haven't eaten the sole of their shoes. If the New Pacific Order wants to move forward, it is up to us to do it by action and not rely on some words on a document. The only way we wont be able to rebuild is if we refuse to. I am not afraid of karma, not afraid of the past and not afraid of the future, because I trust in the abilities of my alliance. The rest is all filler for someones soapbox.
[/quote]
This is a quality post, and if it's a sign of what's to come from Pacifica in the future, I'm sure the post-Overtime Accords era will be one of much more success for NPO than the post-Karma era was.

I also agree with you when you say that a term in the surrender agreement stating that NPO had a 'clean slate' would have been utterly useless. Surrender terms are not some sort of Men In Black-esque neuralyser; they are not capable of wiping people's memories or forcing a change of opinions. Besides, I think for most people in Doomhouse, this was less to do with whatever NPO did in the past, and more of a move based on the so-called tactics of the Hopeless Coalition in the early stages of the war.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304404642' post='2704964']
It does if you own the street.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL3.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I find these little animated snippets after every post both funny and sad. Sad you think people care enough about what you're saying to want to see a picture showing your face expression, but funny to see how long you will keep at it.

[ControlVolume]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1304407783' post='2705001']
I find these little animated snippets after every post both funny and sad. Sad you think people care enough about what you're saying to want to see a picture showing your face expression, but funny to see how long you will keep at it.
[/quote]
You unironically have a Sephiroth avatar. Check and mate.

[SADeki]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304407091' post='2704994']
OK, but you don't own the planet. You think you do, strutting about with your smug sense of superiority, but you don't. In the end we are all accountable for our actions. One day, you will get yours. And unlike us, your house will (for the second time) fold with incredible velocity, once your numbers find they are no longer able to collect "pubbie tears," whilst drowning in their own.

What you fail to understand, is that we aren't surprised. We did know that you would extort us. But it doesn't make the extortion right. And it certainly does not grant you some sort of magical immunity where we can't point out what you've done.
[/quote]

It is amazing how upset you and Schattenmann are becoming for having to deal with the idea that you guys are going to take a hit for jumping on the anti-goons bandwagon.

Honestly, I think there are people who have a right to grumble about terms, and those would be the NPO members who actually fought seriously in the war, and have to stay in for a bit longer because of the cowardice of their allies, and any MDP allies of NPO. I'm not saying they should have gotten off with white peace, but those two groups did get hit harder than they should have realistically.

On the other hand, I think the nations/alliances who tried to curbstomp us and then retreated to peacemode when their failure was evident should be paying more reps.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1304407783' post='2705001']
I find these little animated snippets after every post both funny and sad. Sad you think people care enough about what you're saying to want to see a picture showing your face expression, but funny to see how long you will keep at it.
[/quote]
I've noticed so far that only the WPE contenders (you, HeroofTime, D34th, and LittleRena) have called me on the images. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. It's just an observation.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriswutL1.jpg[/img]

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304407645' post='2704998']
If you did it knowing you'd be made to pay reps just so you could try and martyr yourselves and complain about it, I have even [i][b]less[/b][/i] sympathy for you.
[/quote]
[quote name='ControlVolume' timestamp='1304407675' post='2704999']
So basically what you're saying is that you attacked us so you could complain about ~extortion~ later. Gotcha, thanks.
[/quote]
[img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/eng99.gif[/img]

We entered to honor our treaties, in [i]spite[/i] of the crimes we knew you would commit against us.

For the amount of whining your side does that you never get a big war, you sure do a lot of crying when one finally comes.

"Wahhhhh, why did you attack us [img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/emotqq.gif[/img]"

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304408190' post='2705004']
I've noticed so far that only the WPE contenders (you, HeroofTime, D34th, and LittleRena) have called me on the images. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. It's just an observation.
[/quote]

That's not true. I called you on them a while back. Perhaps it is a sign of things to come when the next WPE vote comes around.

[Farseli]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304408231' post='2705005']
[img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/eng99.gif[/img]

We entered to honor our treaties, in [i]spite[/i] of the crimes we knew you would commit against us.

For the amount of whining your side does that you never get a big war, you sure do a lot of crying when one finally comes.

"Wahhhhh, why did you attack us [img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/emotqq.gif[/img]"
[/quote]

Our policy is that if you choose to shoot yourself in the foot (attack us) it is gonna hurt (pay us reps). Not our problem if you guys made a promise to your best friend that if he gets in a bar fight that your response is gonna be shoot yourself in the foot.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Farseli' timestamp='1304408447' post='2705007']
Our policy is that if you choose to shoot yourself in the foot (attack us) it is gonna hurt (pay us reps). Not our problem if you guys made a promise to your best friend that if he gets in a bar fight that your response is gonna be shoot yourself in the foot.
[/quote]

I think the point they are making is they did not choose to attack you, they were obliged to attack you after you attacked their ally.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304408523' post='2705008']
I think the point they are making is they did not choose to attack you, they were obliged to attack you after you attacked their ally.
[/quote]
Perhaps they should have followed Legion's example when NpO got attacked.

[ControlVolume]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304408231' post='2705005']
[img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/eng99.gif[/img]

We entered to honor our treaties, in [i]spite[/i] of the crimes we knew you would commit against us.

For the amount of whining your side does that you never get a big war, you sure do a lot of crying when one finally comes.

"Wahhhhh, why did you attack us [img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/emotqq.gif[/img]"
[/quote]
I'm sorry that you have a basic misunderstanding of logic, but simple cause and effect generally isn't labeled p → qq

Edited May 3, 2011 by ControlVolume

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304408190' post='2705004']
I've noticed so far that only the WPE contenders (you, HeroofTime, D34th, and LittleRena) have called me on the images. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. It's just an observation.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriswutL1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
If you're willing to tell someone they're doing something wrong or point out flaws in what they're doing, I would surprised if someone didn't end up somebodies WPE list just by staying active and pointing out the brutal truth even if you've conveniently been ignoring it. Although I wouldn't of bothered saying anything had I realized it had already been pointed out so many times.

[Farseli]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304408523' post='2705008']
I think the point they are making is they did not choose to attack you, they were obliged to attack you after you attacked their ally.
[/quote]
Right, I understand that. That's the whole part of promising their best friend that they would shoot themselves in the foot when a bar fight breaks out.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1304408656' post='2705010']
Perhaps they should have followed Legion's example when NpO got attacked.
[/quote]
PROTIP:

When an alliance gets attacked, what the treaty partner does, is they go to the attacked party, and they discuss how to defend against the attack.

The attacked party has a right to waive obligations in all events.

That's why Legion didn't enter for Polaris, and why our coalition struck out at GOONS instead of blindly walking into the meat grinder against all four of the aggressors in our war. Polaris didn't activate their obligations, and Pacifica only activated their treaty obligations against GOONS.

This might be too complicated for you to understand, though, so I won't hold it against you.

Edited May 3, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1304408656' post='2705010']
Perhaps they should have followed Legion's example when NpO got attacked.
[/quote]

Well, you may be content to let your friends burn to protect your infrastructure or avoid the possibility of paying reps. Thankfully there are people out there who value their allies a little more than you do.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Tygaland

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Farseli' timestamp='1304408878' post='2705015']
Right, I understand that. That's the whole part of promising their best friend that they would shoot themselves in the foot when a bar fight breaks out.
[/quote]

I'm not seeing the validity of that analogy.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Farseli' timestamp='1304408878' post='2705015']
Right, I understand that. That's the whole part of promising their best friend that they would shoot themselves in the foot when a bar fight breaks out.
[/quote]
2 posts in and you're already a serious contender for WPE. I'm going to have to prepare for next year if I'm to have any hope of holding out against the likes of you!

(PS: Try being a little less obvious in terms of the bias.)

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304408905' post='2705017']
Well, you may be content to let your friends burn to protect your infrastructure or avoid the possibility of paying reps. Thankfully there are people out there who value their allied a little more than you do.
[/quote]
We value our "allied" as you call them a great deal, thank you. I was merely remaking on Legion's interesting "strategic" decision.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1304409056' post='2705020']
We value our "allied" as you call them a great deal, thank you. I was merely remaking on Legion's interesting "strategic" decision.
[/quote]

Ah, yes, focus on a typo. Good work. No one was talking about Legion's decision, interesting or otherwise.

[Farseli]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304408954' post='2705018']
I'm not seeing the validity of that analogy.
[/quote]
That's okay. I'm sleepy and currently dealing with finals. The arguing going on in this thread is actually helping me relax quite a bit!

[ControlVolume]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304409053' post='2705019']
2 posts in and you're already a serious contender for WPE. I'm going to have to prepare for next year if I'm to have any hope of holding out against the likes of you!

(PS: Try being a little less obvious in terms of the bias.)
[/quote]
"Here is my stunning rebuttal against all of your posts forever:
You are a bad poster and also dumb."