Changing TE, Could SE change too?

[CEverettKoop]

#4, absolutely. It's been frustrating to tell a new player interested in the game to sit around and twiddle their thumbs for five days and re-roll since their resources are lousy. Being able to be involved from the beginning and adjusting resources later is fantastic. It also opens up war-strategies of flipping resources to try and gain better ones, although it'd be quite a gamble. I still maintain that if Admin wanted to make money hand over fist, allow donations to pick resources, possibly to be renewed on a monthly basis.

[Azaghul]

#5 in TE makes more sense because in TE (at least when I used to play it) you don't have nation to nation aid, substantial numbers of economic improvements and wonders, or huge warchests.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1298002341' post='2637271']
#5 in TE makes more sense because in TE (at least when I used to play it) you don't have nation to nation aid, substantial numbers of economic improvements and wonders, or huge warchests.
[/quote]
Oh, all of these are beautiful for TE. No doubt.

[dy Cazaril]

A lot of these changes are things that make sense in TE, that wouldn't necessarily work well in SE. I can imagine similar [i]concepts[/i] being added in SE, but not the exact things that are being changed in TE.

[Manetheren]

All of these would do a lot to revitalize the game, even if you don't agree with them.

[Sulmar]

Yeah, that #5 would not be good at all for SE.

[Jinnai]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' timestamp='1297994713' post='2637150']
Most of these are ideas designed for TE... almost 100% unlikely to fold into SE the same exact way.
[/quote]
Basically this. The exceptions perhaps being #1 and #9.

TE is suppose to be a more fast-paced game and thus being able to recover more quickly is more important. It's a race to the top with an award because there is a finite timeline. SE is none of those.

One of the biggest one of these changes, the resource switching, can only work there because there is very little disincentive to rerolling if you get poor resources. The shorter reroll time period and general lack of members means bad resource combo can make you unable to get any trades if your resources are lead/rubber. There is also no long-term effect to rerolling since your nation will be deleted in several months. Lord Fingolfin gives a good reason why this is the case. It'll basically become standard that only 1 resource set will work and if you don't match it exactly, too bad; you get screwed until you do and can find a place to slip inside a the one TC out there.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Jinnai

[Arrnea]

#7 would sure be game-changing. Instead of just Hime Themis and few others being able to delete 35% of your infrastructure with the push of a button, anyone with over 10,000 tech could pull it off (assuming they also had a Weapons Research Complex).

The resource switching would be a nice addition, but in SE there should be a (significant, at least for a small nation) cost involved.
I'm not opposed to the idea of wars being shorter, either.

PS: Doesn't this kind of thread belong in Gameplay Discussion?

Edited February 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[Margrave]

The tech-mod and MP notwithstanding, all of this stuff is awesome for se; it might be full of disturbing implications; fine! The better to force people to adapt, grow interest....this is all awesome stuff, SE needs this like a dehydrated man needs fresh water.

[TypoNinja]

[quote]
1) You can purchase up to 100 levels of infras and land at a time instead of 50.
[/quote]

Not spend half an hour making a big infra jump? Yes please!

[quote] 2) Nations start out with $5 million startup funds instead of $1 million. [/quote]

Sure, why not.

[quote] 3) Wars last for 5 days instead of 7 days. [/quote]

Eh not sure, means even as an attacker you'll be in nuclear anarchy longer than your war lasts. A full cycle you have to sit out.

I think its likely to make wars a little bit more destructive. At seven days you could conceivably smack around a smaller opponent for a while even after hes blow way below your range. At only five hes gone and out of range much quicker. on the other hand every time a war refreshes that's one less nuke.

Maybe somebody who plays TE can enlighten us on how the two less days play out

[quote] 4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. [/quote]

Pretty much identical to a suggestion I made expect a far faster refresh, so uhh yea I approve

[quote]
5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.[/quote]

I think I like this, though I'd exempt infra levels 0-1001 from the discount. Its already cheap enough to sit at ZI and lots of tech on a fat warchest buying back up to the 1k mark to keep nuking the crap out of everything.

[quote] 6) Global Radiation Level will be based off of the last 15 days rather than 30 days.[/quote]

We might actually see the GRL below 5! Glory be!

[quote] 7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.[/quote]

Hell no. This would be just !@#$@#$ insane in SE. In TE you don't have the time to stock pile crazy amounts of tech so not a huge deal, here though... Who wants to do the math and tell us what a 10k tech nuke would do with this?

[quote] 8) The Manhattan Project wonder cost has been increased from $2 million to $5 million.[/quote]

Obviously TE pricing, ours stays 100mil, thanks.

[quote]
9) The donation bonus amounts have been doubled.
[/quote]

I've long thought donation bonuses were pitiful for the cost, they only ever got traded in because as a large nation I could buy one for far less in game resources than it would give me.

[Banksy]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1298014632' post='2637447']
I think I like this, [b]though I'd exempt infra levels 0-1001 from the discount[/b]. Its already cheap enough to sit at ZI and lots of tech on a fat warchest buying back up to the 1k mark to keep nuking the crap out of everything.
[/quote]
Just on this point, I suppose altering the points where the infra jumps are would have the effect of cheaper infra (and therefore easier rebuilding for nations who already had a lot of infra) without creating a barrier for newer nations.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='lordliam' timestamp='1297990419' post='2637088']
All of these changes are absolute godsends. They do exactly what CN players have long been asking the game to do - easier growth for small nations and faster rebuilding for large nations. Wars will now become faster, more furious and more fun. The only change I don't quite agree with is the new 5-day war limit. Wars IRL don't simply "expire". Although some are simply forgotten about because the two parties haven't attacked each other in a long time. So the new length for wars should be "until peace is declared or if there are no attacks on each other for 3 updates" or something like that. The rest of the changes would be very beneficial to SE though.
[/quote]
An undefined war length would make the PZI lockdown a lot easier to coordinate for alliances that way inclined.
Pick 3 nations that are at the absolute upper limit of being able to declare, aid bomb the hell out of them so they grow by a considerable amount and combined with normal growth and the end result will be that the guy they are locking down has no hope of escape and will end his days in anarchy & bill lock or eternal war if he sells everything off to get his bills down to the absolute minimum.

This is potentially how some players would abuse it.

[jerdge]

4 ("Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free...") would long term remove most of the pain related with Trade Rings: with a bit of patience people would have combos that work with the ones of other nations that don't already have their ring; short term it would probably cause some problems: people might lose their ring because other people try to finally get "better" resources.
I'm amazed that a possible consequence hasn't been mentioned yet: trade rings could be based on the choice of nations, which then work to get the resources they need. In the long run it might increase the number of intra-alliance rings.
Overall it would make trading a lot easier which is obviously good.

5 ("Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased...") would probably mean more wars. I'm uncertain about the long term effects.

7 ("The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.") would mean that high tech level + nukes + WRC = quick ZI but, which is much more important, that [i]tech[/i] gets substantially destroyed in nuclear wars.
As the only viable way to build your tech (through deals) is horribly slow this should work to significantly reduce the global amount of tech. High end nations will have to find a way to stay out of nuclear wars or they'll stop being high-end, and with time the high-tech alliances might become more and more scarce, eventually getting virtually "unassailable" (= it's too costly to attack them).
I'm still uncertain about the result but this has the potential to have an unprecedented impact over SE (not so much in TE where there's no Foreign Aid and the top tech levels are much smaller).


What I think anyway is that SE has been declining for too long. A bit of change is probably due as we are approaching the point at which we'll have little to lose.

[Arrnea]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1298014632' post='2637447']Hell no. This would be just !@#$@#$ insane in SE. In TE you don't have the time to stock pile crazy amounts of tech so not a huge deal, here though... Who wants to do the math and tell us what a 10k tech nuke would do with this?[/quote]
A 10k tech nuke from a nation with no WRC would do a base damage of 1,650 infra (provided the target nation had more than about 4710 infra).
From a nation with the same tech, but with a WRC added, it would do a base damage of 3,150 infra (provided the target nation had [s]over 9000[/s] 9000 or more infra).

[Beefspari]

So need the resource thing in SE. The rebuilding cost change would be nice too.

The tech change would just be hilarious. 30,000 infra damage in 5 days with nukes alone for high tech nations. ZI any nation in one round of war. Watch as a single nuke destroys 50,000 NS.

[Kowalski]

Infra peaks with rebuilding cost reduction would be a great addition.

[Mathias]

I doubt the trade one will transfer over. I assume that's so you can play TE without having to waste limited time rerolling because you were given crap resources.

[Tarkin]

My humble opinion of these changes:

[quote]1) You can purchase up to 100 levels of infras and land at a time instead of 50. (not really a big deal)[/quote]

Good idea, would like to see this in SE.

[quote]2) Nations start out with $5 million startup funds instead of $1 million. (neat)[/quote]

Good idea, would get noobs(and rerolls) off to a quicker start.

[quote]3) Wars last for 5 days instead of 7 days. (interesting)[/quote]

Will wait to see how this works out in practice before deciding if it's a good idea.

[quote]4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. (magnificent or chaotic, depends on how you coordinate)[/quote]

Good idea for TE. For SE, maybe 1 free change with additional changes requiring a donation. (This assumes the resource changes are random for SE.)

[quote]5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.[/quote]

Good for TE, will let you recover faster. For SE, maybe limit it to 50 or 75% of max(or 100, whichever is higher).

[quote]6) Global Radiation Level will be based off of the last 15 days rather than 30 days.[/quote]

Good for TE.

[quote]7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.[/quote]

Would like to see how this works out in practice. For SE, NO.

[quote]8) The Manhattan Project wonder cost has been increased from $2 million to $5 million.[/quote]

Good for TE. 100 mil is a good price for SE.

[quote]9) The donation bonus amounts have been doubled.[/quote]

Nice. I'd certainly be more tempted to make donations.

[ChairmanHal]

[i]1) You can purchase up to 100 levels of infras and land at a time instead of 50. (not really a big deal)[/i]

Allows for faster development in TE, which is nice.

[i]2) Nations start out with $5 million startup funds instead of $1 million. (neat)[/i]

Ditto.

[i]3) Wars last for 5 days instead of 7 days. (interesting)[/i]

It's supposed to be a faster paced version of SE, so this would make sense.

[i]4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. (magnificent or chaotic, depends on how you coordinate)[/i]

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone say, "my resources suck!" only for me to show them that they are wrong, I could buy the game from Kevin.

I do like bit about being able to change your resources immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll, saves the anal retentive amongst the re-rolls days (perhaps weeks) of trying to get the "perfect" set of resources. At the same time, any change would tend to further skew who has what resources in game and would make things harder for people who need particular resources for more bonuses.

[i]5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.[/i]

EXCELLENT addition. I would love to see this in SE.

[i]6) Global Radiation Level will be based off of the last 15 days rather than 30 days.[/i]

Probably more a TE thing...again, faster pace.

[i]7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.[/i]

Hmm...that's one of those "let's see how it affects the game" experiments I think...

[i]8) The Manhattan Project wonder cost has been increased from $2 million to $5 million.[/i]

TE thing...though increasing the cost of MP in SE wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, says the guy who already has one.

[i]9) The donation bonus amounts have been doubled.[/i]

I support this in SE as well.

[janax]

ALl great for TE, some might be good for SE

The exeption being the 5 day war. I don't like that at all.

[HHAYD]

7: The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.

Tech heavy players will eat other players who have lower tech:infra ratio for breakfast in every single war. It will favor tech heavy alliances over other alliances. Great for TE, but keep it out of SE unless if something is done to allow players to hold more than 15k infra without bill-locking themselves and/or purchase more tech without bleeding their warchest dry.

[Duncan King]

[quote]1) You can purchase up to 100 levels of infras and land at a time instead of 50. [/quote]

This will let nations rebuild quicker without worrying about maxing out their actions limit on infra buying.

[quote]2) Nations start out with $5 million startup funds instead of $1 million. [/quote]

Brilliant! The more money the better as the first days are the best chance to hook new players and giving those new players the chance to buy more stuff goes a long way towards hooking them.

[quote]3) Wars last for 5 days instead of 7 days. [/quote]

I'm kind of meh on this. If this happened we'd have 10 day aid, 5 day wars, and 5 day peace mode cycles. I see no reason why aid needs to be twice as long as the other two.

[quote]4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. [/quote]

This is a great idea. I already changed my resources in TE from coal/gems to fish/uranium. I can see great strategic possibilities with this. Instead of having to find people on the same color with the right resource combination, you now only have to find 5 other people willing to adjust their resources with you to ensure the best results. I hope this one is carried over.

[quote]5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.[/quote]

Oh, I wish this could be retroactive. I was 9999 before Karma and still haven't recovered back up to that.

[quote]
6) Global Radiation Level will be based off of the last 15 days rather than 30 days.[/quote]

Interesting. This could be nice because many wars, even large scale ones, are over in two weeks. Getting rid of the GRL sooner will help get people rebuilding.

[quote]7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.[/quote]

This will be an ouch, but if #5 was added, this wouldn't be that big of a deal.

[quote]8) The Manhattan Project wonder cost has been increased from $2 million to $5 million.[/quote]

I actually think the MP price should be halved to 50 million because 100 million is really hard for a 3000 infra nation to get ahold of.

[quote]9) The donation bonus amounts have been doubled.[/quote]

Brilliant! This should be put into SE as well. The bonuses for the lower end donation points are so low that they're not really worth considering. Doubling them makes them seem more attractive.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Duncan King

[Froggor]

I am not a fan of 3,4 or 6. And think that 5 and 7 could be game breakers in SE. 1,2,8 and 9 could be useful though.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='HHAYD' timestamp='1298095874' post='2638143']
7: The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.

Tech heavy players will eat other players who have lower tech:infra ratio for breakfast in every single war. It will favor tech heavy alliances over other alliances. Great for TE, but keep it out of SE unless if something is done to allow players to hold more than 15k infra without bill-locking themselves and/or purchase more tech without bleeding their warchest dry.
[/quote]

From personal experience, unless you are planning on shooting to be a top nation, you really don't need much tech in TE, so indeed it would tend to cause people to give more emphasis on buying tech, which is a good thing. It could also increase tech raiding...like a lot.

As for SE, as I indicated above, it would be an experiment, with potential good or bad outcomes. Observing the results of what it does to TE combat over the course of a few rounds could be instructive.

Side note: All the changes are exactly the sort of experimentation I'd like to see a lot more of in TE.

[asawyer]

I think most of these modifications are great for TE but would be a bad idea for SE. As much as people clamor for changes in SE, drastic modifications completely screw over people who have carefully planned their nation growth for years.

Changing resources would be a logistical nightmare. You have about 20000 nations right now, many of which have participated in stable trade rings for months or even years. If you take even a small percentage of those nations and let them change resources, there will be an avalanche effect where hundreds of trade rings fall apart. Nations with really goofy combinations like rubber and furs deserve some sort of compensation, but this approach is going to kill of hundreds of perfectly stable affluent population rings.

#5 is probably be the worst possible addition of the list. Right now there is a substantial gap between top tier and mid tier nations in warchests, wonders, and overall experience. Every global war this gap gets larger since top tier nations (the smart ones at least) can use their warchest to rebuild and immediately resume tech deals after the war, and mid-tier nations struggle to build back up. Cutting the infrastructure costs is going to effectively hand top tier nations hundreds of millions of dollars during rebuilding, whereas mid-tier nations save maybe 50 million.

As for the tech bonus, go right ahead. I'm treatied to Umbrella and would love to see nukes that can ZI/ZT a nation in 3 days.