Changing TE, Could SE change too?

[KingEd]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1298020252' post='2637471']
A 10k tech nuke from a nation with no WRC would do a base damage of 1,650 infra (provided the target nation had more than about 4710 infra).
From a nation with the same tech, but with a WRC added, it would do a base damage of 3,150 infra (provided the target nation had [s]over 9000[/s] 9000 or more infra).
[/quote]

That's insane - time to go play TE. Can you calculate the amount in tech damage done?

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1298024263' post='2637483']
So need the resource thing in SE. The rebuilding cost change would be nice too.

The tech change would just be hilarious. 30,000 infra damage in 5 days with nukes alone for high tech nations. ZI any nation in one round of war. Watch as a single nuke destroys 50,000 NS.
[/quote]

Would be amusing to see the pixels get massively destroyed; ultimately, those with the "elite" warchest will be fine.

Edited February 19, 2011 by KingEd

[Chief Savage Man]

Infra peaks are nice. The tech damage as well. You think Umbrella is scary now?

[KingEd]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1298142432' post='2638531']
Infra peaks are nice. The tech damage as well. You think Umbrella is scary now?
[/quote]

Very scary

[+Zeke+]

[quote]1) You can purchase up to 100 levels of infras and land at a time instead of 50. (not really a big deal)
2) Nations start out with $5 million startup funds instead of $1 million. (neat)
3) Wars last for 5 days instead of 7 days. (interesting)
4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. (magnificent or chaotic, depends on how you coordinate)
5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.
6) Global Radiation Level will be based off of the last 15 days rather than 30 days.
7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.
8) The Manhattan Project wonder cost has been increased from $2 million to $5 million.
9) The donation bonus amounts have been doubled.[/quote]

1)Not a big deal, as you said.
2)No need to jump start nation in SE.
3)Works well with war status changes.
4)A huge can of worms best done separately. I'm definitely on board with doing something, but I'm not liking this method.
5)I'd go for a 75-85% replacement cost. A small discount would be nice, but rebuilding is an important factor in inter-alliance relations.
6)Not real important in SE with the cap.
7)Just no.
8)SE Price is fine
9)Be nice to see a scaling donation system that doubles existing bonus at 5K and quadruples at 10K Infra.

[Scorponok]

[quote][b]4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. (magnificent or chaotic, depends on how you coordinate)[/b]
5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.
7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.[/quote]

These three points are interesting, but the bolded part would kill SE.

[eyriq]

The great quality of number 4 is that instead of going through hoops trying to match resources you could simply bunch up 5 players and pick the resources from there. I love the potential for entire alliance wide or allies wide trade circles.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Scorponok' timestamp='1298158921' post='2638727']
These three points are interesting, but the bolded part would kill SE.
[/quote]
Perhaps include the ability to change trades one time and one time only..or as part of a donation

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='asawyer' timestamp='1298136644' post='2638478']
I think most of these modifications are great for TE but would be a bad idea for SE. As much as people clamor for changes in SE, drastic modifications completely screw over people who have carefully planned their nation growth for years.

Changing resources would be a logistical nightmare. You have about 20000 nations right now, many of which have participated in stable trade rings for months or even years. If you take even a small percentage of those nations and let them change resources, there will be an avalanche effect where hundreds of trade rings fall apart. Nations with really goofy combinations like rubber and furs deserve some sort of compensation, but this approach is going to kill of hundreds of perfectly stable affluent population rings.

#5 is probably be the worst possible addition of the list. Right now there is a substantial gap between top tier and mid tier nations in warchests, wonders, and overall experience. Every global war this gap gets larger since top tier nations (the smart ones at least) can use their warchest to rebuild and immediately resume tech deals after the war, and mid-tier nations struggle to build back up. Cutting the infrastructure costs is going to effectively hand top tier nations hundreds of millions of dollars during rebuilding, whereas mid-tier nations save maybe 50 million.

As for the tech bonus, go right ahead. I'm treatied to Umbrella and would love to see nukes that can ZI/ZT a nation in 3 days.
[/quote]

What is so hard about getting 5 people to agree what bonuses they want then coordinate who changes to what. After all alliances organize far more players to do far more complex things like going to war for instance.

[President S O]

[quote]4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. (magnificent or chaotic, depends on how you coordinate)[/quote]

I think this would work great in SE. Currently many nations struggle to fit in circles because they either have one resource that doesn't fit, two resources that are not "desired" or because they get a resource set that is easily available. Trade circles are key to a nations growth and more often than not they either fall apart because one nation is deleted and they can't fill that same slot, tweaking becomes too much work - or they never get off the ground in the first place.

I believe if we allowed resource chaning in SE, however limited it may be, it would be a great thing for member retention and keeping people interested. Logging into a prosperous nation has got to be a winner in keeping people here and interested, compared to a dismal weak nation.

[Jake Liebenow]

I, for one, would love to see #8 implemented. Nukes would actually mean something again.

[Corey Faith]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1298164276' post='2638804']
I, for one, would love to see #8 implemented. Nukes would actually mean something again.
[/quote]

You do know the MP is $100mill in SE right?

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Scorponok' timestamp='1298158921' post='2638727']
These three points are interesting, but the bolded part would kill SE.
[/quote]

Yeah the essence of CN is the tedious search for stable trades, that's really what makes CN SE fun and exciting.

[Locke]

[quote name='Corey Faith' timestamp='1298166087' post='2638844']
You do know the MP is $100mill in SE right?
[/quote]
He probably meant increase in cost, not that [i]specific[/i] cost.

[Xiphosis]

[quote]5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.[/quote]

The only good one I can see. The major change I think SE needs to see is the aid system money/tech cap updated to reflect the increased incomes and such, the arbitrary levels will always hold up the game itself as it progresses.

[MrMuz]

Most of the changes are more suitable for TE because of its cramped time span. I really want infra in SE to be purchasable in 100 infra chunks. It's annoying to buy thousands of infra post-war.

I do wish you could change resources in SE. Maybe a moon/mars mine would be a prerequisite. Or something else which made it a late game change, so that people wouldn't be doomed if they rolled up bad resources.

I thought 9) was a bit heavy for TE. A single donation previously puts you several days ahead of the competition. But makes sense with the new changes inflating infra/money.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1298169654' post='2638905']
He probably meant increase in cost, not that [i]specific[/i] cost.
[/quote]
It is curious that people who already have a MP seem to be the ones pushing for it to go up in price.

[Scorponok]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1298161756' post='2638767']
Perhaps include the ability to change trades one time and one time only..or as part of a donation
[/quote]

I just think, that doing so would mean there would be a lot of resource combos that would never get used.

Maybe basing Resources on RL geographical data.

[SyndicatedINC]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1297993864' post='2637137']
5 and 7 could easily break the game, although in a TE context they make sense.[/quote]
[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1297994017' post='2637139']
1, 2, and 4 are all great. 3 is great for TE, but the war length in SE is fine as it is. 5 would break SE and only exacerbate the old player-new player gap. 7 definitely would break SE. 6 and 8 are good for TE. 9 is good call in general.[/quote]
[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1298014632' post='2637447']
I think I like this, though I'd exempt infra levels 0-1001 from the discount. Its already cheap enough to sit at ZI and lots of tech on a fat warchest buying back up to the 1k mark to keep nuking the crap out of everything.

Hell no. This would be just !@#$@#$ insane in SE. In TE you don't have the time to stock pile crazy amounts of tech so not a huge deal, here though... Who wants to do the math and tell us what a 10k tech nuke would do with this?

I've long thought donation bonuses were pitiful for the cost, they only ever got traded in because as a large nation I could buy one for far less in game resources than it would give me.[/quote]
I have to agree with all of these comments. While I love every one of these suggestions for TE, I think that most are terrible for SE, or at least terrible as they currently are being implemented in TE.

[quote]1) You can purchase up to 100 levels of infras and land at a time instead of 50.[/quote]
I have not seen this mentioned yet, but wont this seriously decrease the cost of infra purchases given the way the game calculates it?

[quote]4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. [/quote]
Again as already put forth by others in this thread, we lose people to the resource issues, either in frustration when rerolling or frustration when older and unable to get a good set. SOMETHING needs to be changed, however this method while fine for TE will just lead to the myriad of problems already spelled out in this thread if put into SE.

[quote]5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.[/quote]
Once more this has been thoroughly covered by others as to why it is fantastic for TE, but ruins SE. Nuke turrent nations can operate indefinitely between this and #1. I mean you are at ZI, and you can buy the first 100 infra at 50% the cost of 1 level (minus all the resource, wonder, and improvement bonuses). Hell at that rate a player can rebuy a thousand infra a day, and even in anarchy collect enough taxes to pay for it. The months long wars people whine about now, will go on for years.

If something like this is to be implemented then it needs HEAVY restrictions, such as [b]being unavailable until something like 30 days since you last had an active war slot or were in peace mode[/b]. Otherwise people will be rebuilding during existing wars, and the war lengths will grow exponentially as we see more use of nuke turrents and longer peacemode cycles.

Additionally, that memory of highest level, needs to have a decay rate. So that a massive nation cant spend 3 months hovering at ZI, then boost back to top 100 nations. As stated if they can, the new-old player gap will just continue to widen. Hell having a real long-term consequence of war (ie watching your max size record slowly shrink, along with your ability to boost back to it right away) may encourage shorter wars. If wars were shorter and more easily recoverable, then there would be more. However if they are just easily recovered from then there will not be more as the ones that start will run forever.

[quote]6) Global Radiation Level will be based off of the last 15 days rather than 30 days.[/quote]
I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented in SE if it was attached to one of the alternate GRL ideas that has been talked about forever (such as sphere or AA GRL). Such that the regular GRL is combined with a special RL for the total GRL effect. However before we do that, I think the GRL should be modded so that its bottom end is achievable, I mean how long has it been since it dipped below 1.0? Over a year? For a community in stagnation of a wave of peace, the GRL just doesnt drop like it used to. So in effect it is a pseudo permanent penalty players just grow accustomed to, sort of like the Nuke environment penalty.

[quote]7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.[/quote]
Again as so many others have pointed out, for TE this is great, however in tech dealing SE, this is far too broken. If implemented, it would have to alter tech NS value back to the old 20 value, or even 25 (although the bonus is ten times greater, the other tech values are not improved by ten times, thus a 50 NS value would not be to scale).

Edited February 20, 2011 by SyndicatedINC

[Hereno]

I would like to see 4. Older nations and noobs who don't know about trade sets shouldn't have to consider rerolling months/years later because it's impossible for them to get decent trades. I spent weeks rerolling to get the decent resources I have now. It sucked and I would never wish that on someone else. The argument "but what if I want a 0BR resource with 3 coals?! nobody will have coal they'll all have 3BRs!!" is dumb.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Hereno

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' timestamp='1298174900' post='2639060']
It is curious that people who already have a MP seem to be the ones pushing for it to go up in price.
[/quote]

I don't, and never had have, an MP

Nah, I just miss the '06 days where nukes actually meant something.

[Folkvar Forkbeard]

Out of all the changes to TE, the only two I'd like to see come to CN would be the Infra purchasing limit, and especially the option to change resources.

[ace072199]

I didn't read everyone post in this topic so I will probably repeat what others have said.

[quote]) You can purchase up to 100 levels of infras and land at a time instead of 50. (not really a big deal)
2) Nations start out with $5 million startup funds instead of $1 million. (neat)
3) Wars last for 5 days instead of 7 days. (interesting)
4) Nations can change their native resources once every 7 days for free. You can change them immediately after creating your nation instead of having to reroll. Trades get automatically updated to reflect a nation's resource change, so if you're trading for Sugar and Cattle and your trade partner changes to Rubber and Oil now you get Rubber and Oil. (magnificent or chaotic, depends on how you coordinate)
5) Added peak infrastructure and peak land purchased. If your land or infrastructure fall below your peak levels (minus 100 so that you can't cheat) then the purchase cost to replace it is reduced by 50%.
6) Global Radiation Level will be based off of the last 15 days rather than 30 days.
7) The techmod has been increased from 0.01% to 0.1%.
8) The Manhattan Project wonder cost has been increased from $2 million to $5 million.
9) The donation bonus amounts have been doubled.[/quote]

#1 - This should definately be part of standard edition, it would save a lot of time doing the monotonous task of doing a 1000 infra jump

#2 - I think this should be left in TE - This is perfect for TE but not good for SE

#3 - Again, this is great for TE but not for SE

#4 - Hmmm... I think this is great for TE since it is not a long term game, for standard, I am not sure. I know I would love it if I could find a permanent trade circle with close friends but overall for the game I am unsure if it would be a good thing. I think it would certain resources and trade sets irrelevant among other issues which I wont get into now.

#5 - This is great for TE but not good for SE as it would make it a lot easier to rebuild after war, which I don't think would be good for the game.

#6 - I don't feel this would be good for SE

#7 - I don't feel this would be good for SE Either

#8 - Not a fan of this for TE

#9 - Definately good for TE & Would be good for SE. It Think it would bring in a lot more money for the game.

[Joe Stupid]

The Resource thing could be AMAZING.

[ace072199]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1297997240' post='2637184']
If 5000 people decided to switch to wheat and lumber, an awful lot would be looking to switch away from it when they couldn't find any trades.

That said, in this case I believe the selection is random, though the suggestion box topic on the issue proposed some versions with limited choice, balanced with cost.
[/quote]


I think if we were able to change our resources, a majority of people would find trade partners who they are close to and who are active. Then create whatever set they want. They would start out at a set that would benefit them financially, while mainly just collecting taxes, Then they would probably coordinate their infra jumps all together and switch their resources to a infra cost reduction set, then switch back 7 days later to the trade set that gives them more money. Then in times of war, they would all coordinate and change to a military set.

The hardcore players would probably coordinate and change their resources every 20 days to maximize their collection on the 20th day and reduce their bills while paying bills for the first 20 days.

Other than it making certain resources and trade sets irrelevant I am not sure if their is a downside. It adds a whole new strategy to the game.

[xenon]

Most of this wouldn't be good for SE, but I think it will make TE pretty awesome. I think that #5 is interesting though. Perhaps, if it gets implemented -20% when 500 or more levels below would be more reasonable (this is also based in reality, as your workers would have more experience and technology than the first time you bought the infra.). I think that the SE purchase limit is currently fine, since buying a couple thousand levels can now be done in a few minutes with the new feature that allows you to just keep clicking purchase, while it used to take 15-30 minutes. I would also support an increase of the starting funds to around 150,000, as much more will be able to be done when you start, which should help keep the interest of new members. #9 is also probably a good idea, though perhaps 50% more instead of doubling it.