Poyplemonkeys Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Surely maximizing output damage and minimizing input damage is the best way to fight a war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297185651' post='2625816'] Yes it's a treaty, but it's an ODP part of NOIR. That isn't the strongest of treaties. DT wanted in on the other side and picked a controlled part of the conflict in which they could maximize output damage and minimize input damage. Some people would call that bandwagoning (not me though). It barely reduced any pressure from LoSS and thus you can conclude that DT didn't do this to help LoSS out. What their actual motives were to do this? I'm not sure. I could be to preserve infra and not come off like a hippy (sitting on the sideline would give them a lot of negative PR). That's just speculation though. [/quote] I'd have to agree with Poyples on this one. What's worse is come to find out Legacy, the alliance that DT actually hit, doesn't even want reps. CSN seems to be using this as an opportunity to extort an alliance for simply following a treaty. I will certainly be looking more into the issue. The one thing I have to find out is how close LoSS was to actually peacing out when DT entered. This seems to be a point of some contention and the reasoning behind CSN wanting to "punish" DT for their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297185435' post='2625812'] What's reasonable then in your opinion? [/quote] Sorry friend, I missed your reply. I'm not sure what's reasonable, it depends mostly on the conduct of DT during this ordeal I'd say. 30 aid packages (3+50)? Top 10 could pay they off in 1 aid cycle and be done with it. If they were difficult to deal with, I'd say 50 aid packages would be the max. Edited February 8, 2011 by kriekfreak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Liebenow Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297185651' post='2625816'] Yes it's a treaty, but it's an ODP part of NOIR. That isn't the strongest of treaties. DT wanted in on the other side and picked a controlled part of the conflict in which they could maximize output damage and minimize input damage. Some people would call that bandwagoning (not me though). It barely reduced any pressure from LoSS and thus you can conclude that DT didn't do this to help LoSS out. What their actual motives were to do this? I'm not sure. I could be to preserve infra and not come off like a hippy (sitting on the sideline would give them a lot of negative PR). That's just speculation though. [/quote] God forbid they actually decide to support friends instead of an alliance they only support in ink. Kinda like CSN/RnR/GOD supporting RoK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberland Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1297138759' post='2625157'] LoSS is looking to get out and has no reason to be at war any longer since the reason LoSS joined the war due to TIO is now at peace? [/quote] They can always surrender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefjoe Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297186553' post='2625828'] Sorry friend, I missed your reply. I'm not sure what's reasonable, it depends mostly on the conduct of DT during this ordeal I'd say. 30 aid packages (3+50)? Top 10 could pay they off in 1 aid cycle and be done with it. If they were difficult to deal with, I'd say 50 aid packages would be the max. [/quote] I'd say that's in the realm of reason. I'm glad some are still sensible about things. CSN and the 40k being presented for tech reps is far from that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supa_Troop3r Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Goose' timestamp='1297159154' post='2625531'] LoSS has made no mention of peace with us since the night when we offered white peace with a few joke terms that consisted of about 3 pictures and 5 haikus. The night before you declared on Legacy. Forgive me for not checking in regularly with LoSS to see if they were ready for peace. I've little concern for LoSS. We offered white peace which they declined as TIO was still involved. They came back again and we offered white peace with a few joke terms consisting of a few pictures and 5 haikus. This was met with a declaration from DT on Legacy, our ally that was fighting with us. The alliance not doing the most damage, and one of the weakest connected on the front. You want to help LoSS? Tell them to pull their heads from their asses, contact someone from the alliances still at war with them and discuss terms. [/quote] So LoSS was not in peace talks when we came in. So, this shed's a little bit of light on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiccan high priest Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1297140687' post='2625232'] You seriously think that we are going to accept paying 40k in reps to CSN for CSN declaring on DT? When DT came in to defend LoSS and declared on Legacy. And Legacy isn't asking for reps. Then you would think that those that came in to support their ally in Legacy would follow suit and not ask for such ridiculous reps. CSN declared on us that was their choice to follow the option in the treaty between Legacy and CSN. [/quote] 40k in reps your making an issue over $40,000 in reps. hell if your that broke I'll loan you 50k and you can pay me back the 10k later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefjoe Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='wiccan high priest' timestamp='1297188534' post='2625851'] 40k in reps your making an issue over $40,000 in reps. hell if your that broke I'll loan you 50k and you can pay me back the 10k later on. [/quote] Its 40,000 tech....not $40,000.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laslo Kenez Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I don't want to get involved in any of this pointless "my alliance is better than yours" bickering that's going on here, but asking 40k in reps from a 40 member alliance that followed a treaty (a type that Legacy presumably considers valid considering they themselves possess several optionals) is utterly disgraceful, and it's a real embarassing shame that R&R actually followed through with trying to enforce that. I expected better than that from a lot of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297189027' post='2625856'] Its 40,000 tech....not $40,000.00 [/quote] Now you've just ordered 1,000 litres of milk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demag Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Last I heard it was 40,000 tech which is why it's contentious. LoSS position was that we weren't interested in peace until TIO was giving peace. LoSS' position now is to help The Dark Templar, who came in at our request, until they receive a peace they can agree too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefjoe Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297189255' post='2625859'] Now you've just ordered 1,000 litres of milk. [/quote] I just wanted to fix my tire.... :-/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubla Khan Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Come on now guys, TTK,GOD,RIA, all fought with honor and carried themselves to a standard that showed them to be just as graceful in peace. I hope that you extend the same dignity to all the alliances you deal with. Several of the Nations here seem to be allowing the personal history with others to cloud there thoughts. From talking at length with several of you I know you are all better alliances and better people than this. I hope you remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Goose' timestamp='1297159154' post='2625531'] LoSS has made no mention of peace with us since the night when we offered white peace with a few joke terms that consisted of about 3 pictures and 5 haikus. The night before you declared on Legacy. Forgive me for not checking in regularly with LoSS to see if they were ready for peace. No one from LoSS has spoken with us about peace since the above mentioned failure. We should have let your alliance burn to the ground and avoided this entire cluster$%&@ of a war. I've little concern for LoSS. We offered white peace which they declined as TIO was still involved. They came back again and we offered white peace with a few joke terms consisting of a few pictures and 5 haikus. This was met with a declaration from DT on Legacy, our ally that was fighting with us. The alliance not doing the most damage, and one of the weakest connected on the front. You want to help LoSS? Tell them to pull their heads from their asses, contact someone from the alliances still at war with them and discuss terms. Yeah tried to pick on the 'weakest' alliance on the front. I'm sorry for not taking it very well that you did that to my ally fighting at my side. I agree. We should have let Hydra burn to the ground. Please ask your government to get in touch with us regarding terms. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm still open to terms that I believe you would find very ammenable. [/quote] I should have read this post more carefully. I wouldn't have had to do so much digging. From what I have gathered this morning DT is being "punished" for apparently trying to dive into the war on the weakest opponent on an ODP right as LoSS was about to peace out. Where would I get that from? Well: <magicninja> Is CSn holding DT ransom for the 40k tech I heard about? <magicninja> Why? They did no different than anyone else in the fray/ Just following treaties etc <Big_Z[GOD]> One of the terms does include reparations for DT's actions, yes <Big_Z[GOD]> No, going in on an ODP while peace negotiations for LoSS were on the verge of completion isn't exactly common <Big_Z[GOD]> They thought they could go in on an alliance quickly with no consequences <Big_Z[GOD]> And then get out soon after with white peace <magicninja> I hadn't heard that LoSS was anywhere near peace when DT entered <Big_Z[GOD]> They were near peace, actually <Big_Z[GOD]> It was on the verge of completion prior to DT's entry So, this apparently flies in the face of Goose's post here that said all peace talks had failed to that point and haven't been brought up again. I've read the logs from the night Goose is talking about. Nowhere in those talks does it show that LoSS was about to peace out. "Undecided" was the closest they got to accepting peace. Goose's post seems to confirm that. So that's one reason dispelled. LoSS was nowhere near peace so DT was not intending on doing a hit and run. Now let's clear up this !@#$%^&* about using an ODP and hitting someone weaker than you are. Is not a treaty a treaty? Hell at least LoSS and DT are directly treatied. Whereas it seems CSN and Legacy had to use treaty chaining just to be able to declare, having no direct ties to Hydra and all. So let's not go using double standards here. One standard will do just fine. now about hitting an alliance weaker than you are......well that is just plain !@#$@#$ stupid. Of course you do the best strategic move and hit the alliance you have the best shot against. Then someone bigger will probably declare on you. Which happened in this case when CSN decided to hit DT. That's just the way the game goes and no one should be punished for using a little strategy ffs. In closing CSN has 0 rights to any reps from DT because they did absolutely nothing wrong in the common practices of our world. DT simply went to war for a treaty partner against an alliance they thought they could win against. No alterior motives and no promise of a 2 day war. You guys in SF need to do the right thing and just let DT and LoSS go. Neither have done anything out of the norm for what usually goes on and nothing they have done deserves reps much less 40k tech worth. Thank you have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kortal Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 When will people learn that it isn't the victors in war who get to decide terms but outside parties with no stake in the matter For shame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Demand more reps, reps own [img]http://i.imgur.com/qCC76.gif[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Co God Ben Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1297190454' post='2625879'] Now let's clear up this !@#$%^&* about using an ODP and hitting someone weaker than you are. Is not a treaty a treaty? Hell at least LoSS and DT are directly treatied. Whereas it seems CSN and Legacy had to use treaty chaining just to be able to declare, having no direct ties to Hydra and all. So let's not go using double standards here. One standard will do just fine. [/quote] Everything about this post, except CSN didn't chain to enter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Co God Ben' timestamp='1297190919' post='2625886'] Everything about this post, except CSN didn't chain to enter. [/quote] I still don't know what treaties Legacy and CSN used to hit you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wu Tang Clan Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 If CSN demands reps it's a ***** move. Both alliances clearly entered a losing war for the sake of helping out treaty partners. They didn't use ghost declarations and chain upon chain to fight anyone. I'm no fan of the resident SF puppet CSN, but this would be one of the most disgusting acts I've ever seen out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Co God Ben Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1297191175' post='2625891'] I still don't know what treaties Legacy and CSN used to hit you guys. [/quote] CSN didn't use any. I'm assuming Legacy used oA they have with CSN to enter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Co God Ben' timestamp='1297191339' post='2625896'] CSN didn't use any. I'm assuming Legacy used oA they have with CSN to enter. [/quote] Oh the whole we don't need treaties we're a coalition act? I remember now. Yet, here they are !@#$%*ing about someone actually using one. Don't seem right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wu Tang Clan Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1297191552' post='2625899'] Oh the whole we don't need treaties we're a coalition act? I remember now. Yet, here they are !@#$%*ing about someone actually using one. Don't seem right to me. [/quote] /me shakes head Haven't you learned. It's only ok when they do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janax Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 [quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1297189250' post='2625858'] I don't want to get involved in any of this pointless "my alliance is better than yours" bickering that's going on here, but asking 40k in reps from a 40 member alliance that followed a treaty (a type that Legacy presumably considers valid considering they themselves possess several optionals) is utterly disgraceful, and it's a real embarassing shame that R&R actually followed through with trying to enforce that. I expected better than that from a lot of you. [/quote] If I were in GATO, I wouldn't want to get involved in those sorts of "bickering" either. It's a losing argument for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALT3RNAT1V3 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 go get em' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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