R&R got bored.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1297208461' post='2626145']
I hear that much respect. SDI's got a nice work out didn't they? <3

Magic this is turning into the GATO thread all over again. People that aren't even in the alliances in question carrying on and getting upset about stuff that doesn't directly affect them. You guys made really good points about telling the peanut gallery to shhh in that thread, it's a shame it's not happening here. Some folks are fighting in a global war, until an alliance exits, I don't think there's anything cheap, to try to speed up the exit. If that means more alliances declare, and give the front line folks a rest, then I don't see what the big deal is, it's war, not "let's be buddies while we destroy a year worth of each other's work."

[b]As far as reps, that's for the winners to decide[/b], Karma saw the first wide spread use of white peace, but it certainly didn't mean that should, or was becoming the norm. White peace was used to quickly retire alliances so the core/folks they didn't like could be focused on more, not as some sort of reward for entering via a certain type of treaty.
[/quote]

And here we have it, hypocrisy full circle.....

You !@#$%*^ did nothing but !@#$%* and moan for yrs about how bad the reps and terms were from the 'old hegemony' days yet now that CSN finally gets a say in someones terms you do nothing but the same thing.....probably worse on a percentage of tech basis as 40k tech levied against a small alliance is far worse then the 89k worth of tech snatched from MK, and look at how you all whined then.

Edited February 9, 2011 by chefjoe

[Sam Winters]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297210744' post='2626206']
And here we have it, hypocricy full circle.....

You !@#$%*^ did nothing but !@#$%* and moan for yrs about how bad the reps and terms were from the 'old hegemony' days yet now that CSN finally gets a say in someones terms you do nothing but the same thing.....probably worse on a percentage of tech basis as 40k tech levied against a small alliance is far worse then the 89k worth of tech snatched from MK, and look at how you all whined then.
[/quote]


Assuming the 40,000 tech figure as tech only, that comes out to 17.4 (rounded) slots per DT nation.

[Supa_Troop3r]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1297210589' post='2626204']
Just offer white peace CSN. Stop thinking you're more than you are by demanding 40k tech. There's a reason all those big nations that joined to help fight have left and your leader is currently getting his ass whipped by DT.

I haven't been a fan of DT in a year now, but I hope they continue to push your buttons if this is the route you're going to head.
[/quote]
You know you're doing it wrong,CSN, when Zoom is telling you to offer white peace to DT.

[pd73bassman]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1297210589' post='2626204']
Just offer white peace CSN. Stop thinking you're more than you are by demanding 40k tech. There's a reason all those big nations that joined to help fight have left and your leader is currently getting his ass whipped by DT.

I haven't been a fan of DT in a year now, but I hope they continue to push your buttons if this is the route you're going to head.
[/quote]


Zoom speaks the truth here, wise up CSN

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297210744' post='2626206']
And here we have it, hypocrisy full circle.....
[/quote]

Save the cries of hypocrisy for those of us who said we were against reps, GOD never did.

[Aurion]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297210744' post='2626206']
And here we have it, hypocrisy full circle.....

You !@#$%*^ did nothing but !@#$%* and moan for yrs about how bad the reps and terms were from the 'old hegemony' days yet now that CSN finally gets a say in someones terms you do nothing but the same thing.....probably worse on a percentage of tech basis as 40k tech levied against a small alliance is far worse then the 89k worth of tech snatched from MK, and look at how you all whined then.
[/quote]

You may want to examine just who you're talking to for a few moments, before you start tossing accusations of hypocrisy around about reps.

Edit: Dammit Xiph.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Aurion

[Neuronia]

LoSS members that are not triumvirates, senators, or ministers shall not post in this thread.



LoSS has been around for 4 years; there's no reason why we shouldn't be around for 4 more. We have seen plenty of silly, aggressive OWF posturing directed at us, and I trust we'll see plenty more. I'd like to say that we're above it, but muckraking is awfully tempting, and there's lot of muck in this war. That a few of our members have succumbed ought not reflect on the core values of the alliance.

Speaking of core values, LoSS is committed to honoring alliances. We are no longer tied to this war by TIO, but we are invested in Dark Templar's speedy and just exit from conflict. How we choose to fulfill this firm commitment is between us and Dark Templar.

To all those friends of LoSS and concerned observers who have offered their support in this thread and in private, we give our most hearty thanks. The outpouring of support is encouraging. Keep supporting us with your words, and we'll keep supporting ourselves with nukes. Any factions that seeks eternal war with LoSS will feel the consequences.

o/ Dark Templar!
o/ LoSS!
o/ GRIT!

OOC: P.S. <3 CSN arguing with Hydra ITT.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Neuronia

[Xerxes II]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1297140687' post='2625232']
You seriously think that we are going to accept paying 40k in reps to CSN for CSN declaring on DT?

When DT came in to defend LoSS and declared on Legacy. And Legacy isn't asking for reps. Then you would think that those that came in to support their ally in Legacy would follow suit and not ask for such ridiculous reps. CSN declared on us that was their choice to follow the option in the treaty between Legacy and CSN.
[/quote]

*insert violin solo here*

I think the 40k is more for the fact you declared while LoSS was in peace talks with us. You remember that, right?

Btw, those are only terms on DT, not LoSS.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Xerxes II' timestamp='1297217431' post='2626407']
*insert violin solo here*

I think the 40k is more for the fact you declared while LoSS was in peace talks with us. You remember that, right?

Btw, those are only terms on DT, not LoSS.
[/quote]

DT didn't know there was peace talks going on did they? Hasn't that line of reasoning already been debunked? :3

[Supa_Troop3r]

[quote name='Xerxes II' timestamp='1297217431' post='2626407']
*insert violin solo here*

I think the 40k is more for the fact you declared while LoSS was in peace talks with us. You remember that, right?

Btw, those are only terms on DT, not LoSS.
[/quote]
Goose said earlier in this thread, that peace talks were over. Try again.

[Xerxes II]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1297217860' post='2626417']
DT didn't know there was peace talks going on did they? Hasn't that line of reasoning already been debunked? :3
[/quote]

LoSS & DT can claim whatever they want about how they can't communicate, etc. Still doesn't change the fact it happened.

[Fronz]

This is like watching a game of telephone, its hilarious the things people are coming up with.

I heard CSN is now demanding $35 trillion and 8.4 billion tech from both DT and LoSS for crimes against humanity and animal cruelty. After we force them to sign the terms and reps are payed, LoSS and DT along with NOIR will be disbanded by CSN's Hand, and we will write up a new econ treaty for the black sphere.

You heard it here folks!

[twodivine]

[quote name='Xerxes II' timestamp='1297217431' post='2626407']
*insert violin solo here*

I think the 40k is more for the fact you declared while LoSS was in peace talks with us. You remember that, right?

Btw, those are only terms on DT, not LoSS.
[/quote]
Please try again. We were not informed of any peace talks with CSN at the time of the attack. If we would of known of these "peace talks" then we would of stayed home waiting for another ally needing help.

[MaGneT]

/brushes cobwebs off

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1297193693' post='2625938']
Maybe CSN doesn't like them. It's not an uncommon feeling.
[/quote]
[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297193938' post='2625943']
This might be wrong but I think they loath the fact that DT tried to take advantage of the situation and need to be thought a lesson. Or possibly what my colleague Janax is saying. DT isn't exactly liked much.
[/quote]
So, er - what exactly is our awful personality flaw that makes us such awful people? We'd really like to improve our character so that we can impress exemplary gents like yourselves . . .

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1297194187' post='2625948']
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that their only MD-level ally who was attacked this war was Nueva Vida, who was attacked by Sparta and Darkfall. Why didn't DT hit Sparta and Darkfall, well, presumably it has something to do with them both being in NOIR - you know the same treaty they cited as their CB for entering the war to begin with.

Allow me to reiterate for anyone who doesn't get it - the ODP they used to come into the war is the exact same piece of paper that mandated they stayed out of it. Does this seem at least unconventional enough to warrant being considered as a special case, magicninja?
[/quote]
Well, if this post doesn't offer a basis for a clear diagnosis of actual medical stupidity, I'm not sure what does. Let's break this one down in a way you can understand. I'll also note that I don't speak for my alliance's leadership here and that I have been inactive for quite some time.

1) DT respects NOIR, a treaty that we (mainly Myworld, hats off to him) have put a lot of work into.
2) We honor the non-aggression part of that treaty by not attacking NOIR signatories even though they attacked one of our oldest MDP partners and historically close allies, even though we would love to defend NV. However, we won't stab one treaty in the back for another (though I daresay that Sparta would not have hesitated to come after us if the shoe was on the other foot), regardless of whether or not one has a higher standing.
3) We honor the optional defense part of that treaty by defending a NOIR signatory at their behest (I think - I wasn't on very much for that part).

Is this not a consistent outlook towards an important economic treaty? And does it really matter if the blocs origins are economic? There is a defense clause, is there not? And is it not protecting our interests to defend an important economic partner and friend on the black sphere?

[quote name='The Catalyst' timestamp='1297198086' post='2626005']
well allies = legacy so you should learn to post in a clear and objective way LIKE ME
DXCFPloiufslthsj
[/quote]
Yes. We should all learn how to post clearly from The Catalyst. Thank you for your indispensable contributions to Planet Bob and humanity as a whole.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1297200723' post='2626041']
I don't think it's so much a matter of recovering (I've used up about 2% of my warchest so far) as it is of disliking the precedent of alliances being able to hit us on flimsy grounds (an economic bloc ODP) when we were in the process of discussing peace of that front, and then a week later suing for peace themselves, expecting to get off scot-free.

Personally I'm more of a fan of being the bigger man and accepting the cheap shot without an attempt at hitting back (and it would seem you are as well), but surely you can understand how the Commonwealth's government sees that as detrimental to our greater strategic interests?
[/quote]
[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1297201988' post='2626056']
<snip>
It's not so much about appearing weak as it about appearing tolerant of unnecessary aggression against us.
[/quote]
I already discussed the NOIR business and you can read that above. I don't doubt your intelligence, Lord Brendan, I just think you're looking at this the wrong way. And I appreciate your "bigger man" approach, but you need to recognize that there was no cheap shot. It has been said many times earlier in this thread that peace was nowhere close to being agreed upon. I don't know for sure, as I am not in government nor was I in any talks, but I very much doubt that DT's leadership would enter a war with the information that it would be ending shortly after we engaged, especially with an alliance that we take no issue with (Legacy). This is merely a matter of honoring a defense pact. Since when is that a cheap shot?

Also, as far as your government and their "greater strategic interests" go . . . well that's a load of nonsense and you know it. In history, how have alliances who demanded obscene levels of reparations fared? DT came in honoring a treaty, with no ideology or partiality towards the core conflict. Considering that fact and the fact that your government demanded more tech per capita from DT than, if my memory serves me correctly, NPO was charged after Karma and MK was charged after noCB - how do you think that will pan out politically down the road? Do you think that would be in your "greater strategic interests"?
And let's consider the more immediate threat of our 446 remaining nukes, because I can assure you that if I was in charge of this alliance, we would keep launching them until we are treated the same way other alliances who entered because of defense pacts are treated, and I would not be shocked if my superiors are thinking similarly. Even if every nation we will nuke had an SDI which performed at the 60% thwarting rate, you would still be hit by nearly 270 nukes, not even counting those that will be bought after today.

[quote name='Catamount' timestamp='1297202405' post='2626070']
ok im tired of your crap. i dont care if you dont understand y CSN is asking for reps or not bc honestly it is non of your business. it is LoSS and DT's buinsess
from my understanding CSN feels that it is honorable for an alliance to go into a war when forced to by a MD or higher treaty as that is the agreement they set into upon with the alliance and etc they feel that ODP and lower reaties are baseless pieces of paper and that the fact that it was DT's choice to enter the war is something that TO CSN is offensable and that is where they feel that they should be offering DT terms. and they are winning as well so it is their right as victors to regulate the terms of surrender for the alliances.

now if you have a problem with it. you can put your infra where your mouth is and do something about it bc your not doing anything else right now but blowing smoke and no one would like to breath it in

edit: loss no hard feeling against you. i have had a very pleasurable experience warring with ya'll so no love lost there.
DT i havent fought any of you. but i have no prior dealings with you therefore i have no prior conceptions of you.
[/quote]
I have no prior conceptions of you either - I would imagine that is in your favor. But don't paint DT with the same brush as you paint me. I'm not our most friendly member.
That being said, since when is an ODP a baseless piece of paper? I'll buy that CSN actually believes that when one of their ODP, PIAT or NAP treaty partners attacks them and they don't cry a river about it.

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1297210589' post='2626204']
Just offer white peace CSN. Stop thinking you're more than you are by demanding 40k tech. There's a reason all those big nations that joined to help fight have left and your leader is currently getting his ass whipped by DT.

I haven't been a fan of DT in a year now, but I hope they continue to push your buttons if this is the route you're going to head.
[/quote]
For the record, I wish things never went wrong between us . . .

[quote name='Xerxes II' timestamp='1297217998' post='2626422']
LoSS & DT can claim whatever they want about how they can't communicate, etc. Still doesn't change the fact it happened.
[/quote]
Hmmm. It's good to see that the radiation hasn't effected your common sense . . .
I believe the claims are that peace talks were over. That would change your "fact", would it not?

Edited February 9, 2011 by MaGneT

[Penkala]

We can go back and forth for ages, but the fact of the matter is that CSN sees entering a war that peace has basically been attained in, through an *economic treaty ODP*, is unacceptable. Communication failure or not, that is what happened. Asking to be handed white peace a week later (after you've gotten a few blows in) is probably not going to go too well.

[quote]This is merely a matter of honoring a defense pact.[/quote]

Not really. It's opting to activate an optional color bloc treaty to take a shot at one side of a war, when NOIR members are involved on both fronts. That's way different from honoring an MDoAP with an ally.

Edit: I feel bad for you, DT. I know you were probably just trying to help your side out as best you could, using whatever treaty you needed to deploy where you'd be of most use. I know it probably wasn't your intent to interrupt peace terms. But using a color-based ODP to justify a war (defending the side that started all this by spying) probably wasn't a great move.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Penkala

[Simms]

So....this has what to do with R&R's DoW again?

nothing?

oh okay.....

[twodivine]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297219917' post='2626459']
We can go back and forth for ages, but the fact of the matter is that CSN sees entering a war that peace has basically been attained in, through an *economic treaty ODP*, is unacceptable. Communication failure or not, that is what happened. Asking to be handed white peace a week later (after you've gotten a few blows in) is probably not going to go too well.



Not really. It's opting to activate an optional color bloc treaty to take a shot at one side of a war, when NOIR members are involved on both fronts. That's way different from honoring an MDoAP with an ally.
[/quote]

Thing is Penkala that peace was never an option as we are finding out. LoSS allies weren't getting out so any deals on the table would be worthless. There was no ceasefire and no agreement to stop the war from either side. With that either side is expected to defend their alliance with whatever help they have via a treaty. Now ask CSN about some of those Ghost nations they had to use from other AA's to attack for CSN?

Edited February 9, 2011 by Myworld

[Penkala]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1297220497' post='2626470']
Thing is Penkala that peace was never an option as we are finding out. LoSS allies weren't getting out so any deals on the table would be worthless. There was no ceasefire and no agreement to stop the war from either side. With that either side is expected to defend their alliance with whatever help they have via a treaty. Now ask CSN about some of those Ghost nations they had to use from other AA's to attack for CSN?
[/quote]

Not quite sure what 'ghost nations' has to do with anything. We can either discuss the issue or not. We could go into the 'make jokes about the other side' routine like you're doing, if you want. My response would probably be something about how much you're crying about not being given white peace.

Peace was, of course, an option. And LoSS and CSN were making headway on that peace.

[crushtania]

Happy hunting, brothers!

o/ R&R!

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297219917' post='2626459']
Not really. It's opting to activate an optional color bloc treaty to take a shot at one side of a war, when NOIR members are involved on both fronts. That's way different from honoring an MDoAP with an ally.
[/quote]
First, did Goose not say earlier in the thread that peace was in no way reached? I've yet to see anything that proves to me that we crashed into the war during talks to get a cheap shot in. You can't even establish motive - what could DT possibly have against Legacy that we would want to do that? Or is it just our obscene bloodlust?

We chose to defend an ally that requested it. The level of the treaty does not matter. It was requested that we enter using a defense clause of NOIR. Are you suggesting that all treaties below MDP-level are no longer valid?
And there is a reason that NOIR is optional. Some signatories are closer to us than others. For example, do you think any of the signatories who attacked NV gave a rat's ass that another signatory was a close ally of theirs? No. And personally, I would not opt to defend them. However, if LoSS, an alliance that we have always had a healthy relationship with, requests our help, is that really a heinous crime?

Also, let's just talk hypothetically now. Tech reps that are higher per capita than those of NPO after Karma are being demanded of us. Let's just [i]suppose, theoretically, for argument's sake[/i], that the crap everyone is spewing about DT's evil plans to ruin peace talks is true. Is that [i]even half[/i] as offensive to CSN as NPO's treatment of those who demanded those same reps of them?

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297219917' post='2626459']
We can go back and forth for ages, but the fact of the matter is that CSN sees entering a war that peace has basically been attained in, through an *economic treaty ODP*, is unacceptable. Communication failure or not, that is what happened. Asking to be handed white peace a week later (after you've gotten a few blows in) is probably not going to go too well.



Not really. It's opting to activate an optional color bloc treaty to take a shot at one side of a war, when NOIR members are involved on both fronts. That's way different from honoring an MDoAP with an ally.

Edit: I feel bad for you, DT. I know you were probably just trying to help your side out as best you could, using whatever treaty you needed to deploy where you'd be of most use. I know it probably wasn't your intent to interrupt peace terms. But using a color-based ODP to justify a war (defending the side that started all this by spying) probably wasn't a great move.
[/quote]
Yes, because that color-based ODP has never been used justify a war by other alliances as well. Never, I say!

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1297213315' post='2626274']
Save the cries of hypocrisy for those of us who said we were against reps, GOD never did.
[/quote]

You are right, GOD never said they didnt like levying huge and unwarrented reps on people.

Good to see you at least are staying consistent in a crazy crazy world

Edited February 9, 2011 by chefjoe

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297220966' post='2626489']
First, did Goose not say earlier in the thread that peace was in no way reached? I've yet to see anything that proves to me that we crashed into the war during talks to get a cheap shot in. You can't even establish motive - what could DT possibly have against Legacy that we would want to do that? Or is it just our obscene bloodlust?

We chose to defend an ally that requested it. The level of the treaty does not matter. It was requested that we enter using a defense clause of NOIR. Are you suggesting that all treaties below MDP-level are no longer valid?
And there is a reason that NOIR is optional. Some signatories are closer to us than others. For example, do you think any of the signatories who attacked NV gave a rat's ass that another signatory was a close ally of theirs? No. And personally, I would not opt to defend them. However, if LoSS, an alliance that we have always had a healthy relationship with, requests our help, is that really a heinous crime?

Also, let's just talk hypothetically now. Tech reps that are higher per capita than those of NPO after Karma are being demanded of us. Let's just [i]suppose, theoretically, for argument's sake[/i], that the crap everyone is spewing about DT's evil plans to ruin peace talks is true. Is that [i]even half[/i] as offensive to CSN as NPO's treatment of those who demanded those same reps of them?
[/quote]

NPO like many other alliances that have been in your shoes before know that the first offer is a starting point to be worked down from.
As to NOIR, I am glad someone actually takes it as a serious treaty, I always thought it was rather worthless, then again, when you pick and chose when to honor NOIR it does make it look rather useless again.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297219917' post='2626459']
We can go back and forth for ages, but the fact of the matter is that CSN sees entering a war that peace has basically been attained in, through an *economic treaty ODP*, is unacceptable. Communication failure or not, that is what happened. Asking to be handed white peace a week later (after you've gotten a few blows in) is probably not going to go too well.



Not really. It's opting to activate an optional color bloc treaty to take a shot at one side of a war, when NOIR members are involved on both fronts. That's way different from honoring an MDoAP with an ally.

Edit: I feel bad for you, DT. I know you were probably just trying to help your side out as best you could, using whatever treaty you needed to deploy where you'd be of most use. I know it probably wasn't your intent to interrupt peace terms. But using a color-based ODP to justify a war (defending the side that started all this by spying) probably wasn't a great move.
[/quote]
Its an ODP.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1297221576' post='2626508']
NPO like many other alliances that have been in your shoes before know that the first offer is a starting point to be worked down from.
As to NOIR, I am glad someone actually takes it as a serious treaty, I always thought it was rather worthless, then again, when you pick and chose when to honor NOIR it does make it look rather useless again.
[/quote]
Picking and choosing based on the situation is the whole point of ODP's, is it not?