A Sad GOONS Announcement

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1293612600' post='2557186']
Woody knows all about being a good ally. He's never cancelled on one mid-war, and left them out to dry when there might've been actually been a war TORN would've lost.
[/quote]
We have allies who don't try and sell us out, and we ride against anyone alongside them, even when defeat has been nearly assured. We don't really fear losing wars, it doesn't hurt bad at all. Whatever this next conflict brings, we know who we can count on and ride with them to the end. We know it, they know it. Your talking point only ever comes from alliances we wouldn't want to associate with anyways, so keep on with it.

I look forward to what the coming months will bring for you.

[Aurion]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1293681536' post='2557873']
We have allies who don't try and sell us out, and we ride against anyone alongside them, even when defeat has been nearly assured. We don't really fear losing wars, it doesn't hurt bad at all. Whatever this next conflict brings, we know who we can count on and ride with them to the end. We know it, they know it. Your talking point only ever comes from[b] alliances we wouldn't want to associate with anyways[/b], so keep on with it.[/quote]

I'm genuinely curious- when did you have this realization?

[quote]
I look forward to what the coming months will bring for you.
[/quote]

Oooh, ominous.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1293684165' post='2557892']
I'm genuinely curious- when did you have this realization?
[/quote]
Some time ago. Although the list of alliances I would consider associating with varies some from time to time, that thread seems to be consistent.

[quote]Oooh, ominous.[/quote]
Be careful what you wish for...

[janax]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1293684978' post='2557901']
Be careful what you wish for...
[/quote]
I would like a new pony.

<insert ominous music>

Also, I thought we held grudges....wow.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1293685875' post='2557932']
I would like a new pony.

<insert ominous music>

Also, I thought we held grudges....wow.
[/quote]
And you shall receive...A DEATH PONY!

[Mixoux]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1293684978' post='2557901']
Some time ago. Although the list of alliances I would consider associating with varies some from time to time, that thread seems to be consistent.


Be careful what you wish for...
[/quote]

An MADP with TPF.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Mixoux' timestamp='1293689808' post='2558029']
An MADP with TPF.
[/quote]
You're not being very careful at all with that wishing.

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1293673234' post='2557783']
I know firsthand the mistakes I made, believe me. For example, the no-nuke deals were a mistake, albeit a thoughtless and inconsiderate one rather than a cowardly one; we had never gone with a nuclear first-strike rule, and thus I judged this as normal. I could have handled better my reaction to the debacle of the terms--I could have not made a public announcement, or I could have advised that we not leave the war at all; I somewhat blew my top at the time, which was unfortunate and irresponsible. I mistreated people in some cases, including a time in which I lost my temper with NoFish (I apologized for this). In all, I was not behaving responsibly; whatever was the case with how others were behaving, I could have behaved much better and could in general have done a much better job than I did.

So yes, I certainly was far from perfect in that situation. TOP was far from perfect. It is, naturally, certainly OK if people make mention of and discuss this. However, what you've produced here is not an honest discussion of events past. Rather, it is an anti-TOP tirade rife with falsehoods, exaggerations, and propaganda. It seems very unnecessary and very counterproductive, and I'm sad to see it.
[/quote]

From my point of view, there's very little blown out of proportion there, I screaming in rage I was getting so mad at your folks. Sure you did damage, and I even stated the one guy you folks flat out ruined, but from what we saw, your folks were letting them slip into peace at record rates, and if they surrendered to ya'll not a word was spoken to us. c Sure there was stuff going on behind the scenes I probably wasn't privy to, so the truth most likely is in between our points of view. I did get rather upset typing that earlier, and I apologize as well for bringing up unneeded discussion, I was merely attempting to state our dislike of you, and how we could turn the cheek to folks like the Orders now, and still wish for your group to be a smoking crater.

Maybe we'll move past that one day, but for now, we're happy to just want nothing to do with you, even if you can't understand why we're mad.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Midkn1ght

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1293693004' post='2558073']
but from what we saw, your folks were letting them slip into peace at record rates,
[/quote]

I'd just like to point out that TOP has never been exceptional slot fillers or staggerers. Particularly in the Karma War, but also in most of the wars that preceded it, a nation that's been hit by TOP for seven days is usually out of our range by the end of it. By the time that peace was being discussed with Echelon (iirc) none of our people on that front had been in range for at least a week.

We're excellent storm troopers and terrible prison guards due almost entirely to game mechanics.

Edited December 30, 2010 by WalkerNinja

[Krack]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1293695473' post='2558119']
We're excellent storm troopers and terrible prison guards due almost entirely to game mechanics.
[/quote]

You're terrible dancers, too ...

[img]http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/26881_o.gif[/img]

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1293695940' post='2558125']
You're terrible dancers, too ...

[/quote]

I'm afraid that you can no longer use that .gif to blackmail Crymson effectively. He's no longer in government.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

The only thing I'm going to comment on is our military effort in Karma. I can guarantee you we fought our hardest in any wars we were involved in. The only way members were held back was with the no first strike nuke policy on the Echelon front. But to say we only fired CMs and didn't coordinate at all is laughable. We had over 100 members on IRC to coordinate ourr wars. In fact I found the other alliances we were fighting with to be lacking in coordination. I'm not going to hold that against them though, not all alliances have our activity level. To say we actually hurt you is just plain false. I believe us and TSO were the last alliances to declare on Echelon. So all the slots we filled were just extra and we mainly helped take out their top tier. Explain to me how exactly we increased the damage you took when the slots we filled weren't being filled by anyone else. Now add on the fact that some Echelon nations decided to nuke us and we actually took some nuke damage away from you.

The only argument you have is that TOP should have taken more of the damage from you. To say that we hurt you by joining and didn't do any damage to Echelon is just false. Go talk to Echelon's top tier that we obliterated and ask them if they were relieved when TOP declared on them.

As for us letting Echelon's top nation destroy you or something... This was their top guy, #6 nation in the game. He deleted after 6 days at war with us.
[img]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5568/picture1fsw.png[/img]

Edited December 30, 2010 by Vladimir Stukov II

[Crymson]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1293693004' post='2558073']
From my point of view, there's very little blown out of proportion there, I screaming in rage I was getting so mad at your folks. Sure you did damage, and I even stated the one guy you folks flat out ruined, but from what we saw, your folks were letting them slip into peace at record rates, and if they surrendered to ya'll not a word was spoken to us. c Sure there was stuff going on behind the scenes I probably wasn't privy to, so the truth most likely is in between our points of view. I did get rather upset typing that earlier, and I apologize as well for bringing up unneeded discussion, I was merely attempting to state our dislike of you, and how we could turn the cheek to folks like the Orders now, and still wish for your group to be a smoking crater.

Maybe we'll move past that one day, but for now, we're happy to just want nothing to do with you, even if you can't understand why we're mad.
[/quote]

You made numerous claims that ranged from slanderous to propagandistic to flat-out untrue. That's what's at issue here. If one chooses to dislike someone for something they've done, then fine, even if it's something that happened far back down the road. However, adding about ten thousand cherries to the top of one's account of said actions is very unnecessary, and that's exactly what you've done here.

While I appreciate that each person has his or her own point of view--such is the nature of discussion between individuals--point of view doesn't figure into many of the very specific claims you made in your post.

[Xiphosis]

I'll add something that Feanor brought up earlier in the thread, as well as something to the peace terms thing.

[quote]I could have handled better my reaction to the debacle of the terms--I could have not made a public announcement, or I could have advised that we not leave the war at all; I somewhat blew my top at the time, which was unfortunate and irresponsible.[/quote]

Entirely true, and if TOP had been more willing to work with us it probably would've went fine. I'm not sure [still] why they were ever proposed like they were on TOP's behalf as well, or why you guys were brought into that room, because that wasn't the idea nor was it intentional. I was completely fine with TOP not taking any reps in the situation [although I would've considered it a courtesy to divide you a share] but as I mentioned before, I got lectures instead of anyone actually working with me towards ending that front of the war and after a certain point I just got fed up and stopped trying with you guys.


As to something Feanor mentioned earlier about talking to me about what TOP could do and such, that's true. We did talk - I talked to a lot of TOP after BiPolar, but I think you guys misunderstood my point in those discussions. I was explaining what I felt was a realistic option for you guys to branch out into your own side, safely and without any lingering threat - I wasn't offering forgiveness or anything of that sort. The simple bottom line is after all the lies that have been told and all the undermining that was done in extremely dangerous, tenuous situations I can't trust you folks to have my back again. That's really all it is. I can get over the bitterness I feel about Karma & Bipolar, and I can get over the anger that comes from those, but trust? That died a while ago.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Khyber' timestamp='1293663110' post='2557653']
Midkn1ght if you really want to know TOP's involvement your free to talk to our .gov about it. We fought, ask Alterego who I attacked, and zoomzoom who he was attacking.
[/quote]
Anyone who thinks TOP didnt fight must have been on the other front. I remember every other post at the time from lots of alliances raving about our front being on the best front in the war with the highest concentration of fighting alliances. There was nowhere to hide and everyone bled. Unlike other wars though it was *almost universally good natured, polite and enjoyable.

• The exception was New Reverie who whined incessantly about being nuked after declaring on us post full nuclear release and demanding all kinds of $

[TonytheTiger]

Nobody said you need to trust TOP Xiph, we don't have your alliances best interests at heart. Really though, why would TOP be expected to care for GOD's interests. GOD is such a small, insignificant alliance compared to even the rest of SF, I find it ironic you think you can dictate foreign policy to anybody. What should GOON be expected to do just to keep a treaty with you? Whatever they do I'm sure it wouldn't be worth the treaty.

You really think you can keep the Karma coalition together by keeping TOP out while at the same time bringing Polar in? Good luck.
Why would TOP care for your opinion on our foreign policy? Thanks for the advice on how we can branch out into our own side "safely and without any lingering threat", but frankly we don't trust you either. I care so little for keeping your 'side' together it's not funny. Look how unified you all are right now. The only reason Karma won is because half the Continuum switched sides, no other reason. Karma would have been crushed if not for the 6 Continuum alliances that backed it. Yet look how little respect TOP get's now for helping win the Karma war.

Edited December 30, 2010 by TonytheTiger

[Bob Janova]

[quote]And it wasn't the only front they acted like they ran the show, go ask anyone on the IRON front how they acted, same damned deal minus the slot filling, cause they didn't really do anything there but butt into the negotiation, promising things they had no right to be speaking about. [/quote]
I'll leave the rest of your post since the TOP people are more informed about the Echelon front than I am, but I have to address this, because it's something that is repeated often enough that people might believe it. [b]TOP were never on the IRON front[/b] – not militarily, not in negotiations, nothing. Naturally, Grämlins were keeping the rest of Citadel updated on how things were going and discussing matters with them, but the 'deal' and all the political mess that was the IRON front were due to the fact that Grämlins were deployed there across our ToA with IRON, and therefore a political deal had to be struck to have IRON waive the cancellation period on it.

Certain individuals within Fark and RoK may have found the Grämlins position distasteful, though I would disagree on that (of course), but to blame TOP for things that happened on that front is definitely not fair. We didn't want to see an ally of an ally rolled, sure, but everyone should have known roughly how things would work on that front since our Codex was a public document at the time, and the ToA mess was also not related to TOP.

[EViL0nE]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1293735621' post='2558441']
I'll leave the rest of your post since the TOP people are more informed about the Echelon front than I am, but I have to address this, because it's something that is repeated often enough that people might believe it. [b]TOP were never on the IRON front[/b] – not militarily, not in negotiations, nothing. Naturally, Grämlins were keeping the rest of Citadel updated on how things were going and discussing matters with them, but the 'deal' and all the political mess that was the IRON front were due to the fact that Grämlins were deployed there across our ToA with IRON, and therefore a political deal had to be struck to have IRON waive the cancellation period on it.

Certain individuals within Fark and RoK may have found the Grämlins position distasteful, though I would disagree on that (of course), but to blame TOP for things that happened on that front is definitely not fair. We didn't want to see an ally of an ally rolled, sure, but everyone should have known roughly how things would work on that front since our Codex was a public document at the time, and the ToA mess was also not related to TOP.
[/quote]
...So from the information given to the typical Fark member, are you saying that GRE lied to Fark regarding motives for the way things had to be done?
"We can only ask for xx amount of reps from IRON or TOP will do xx"
"TOP already promised IRON that we would only fight them for xx rounds"
etc, etc.

Granted, it's all irrelevant at this point as most of GRE involved in that are either deleted or moved on to another alliance. I'm guessing those who play in the smoke filled back rooms already know or have assumed that GRE either lied about their level of involvement in the deals with IRON or allowed incorrect assumptions to be kept through omission. It's just funny to see it admitted in public.

[Bob Janova]

TOP might have 'promised' IRON things, i.e. reinforcing what had originally been agreed with Chill and IRON. I guess that could have been taken horribly out of context and passed on to members. On the other hand, your post might just be another shot at Citadel ... the last paragraph kind of implies that, since I don't believe either I or Chill have been particularly secretive about that front.

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='EViL0nE' timestamp='1293737621' post='2558473']
...So from the information given to the typical Fark member, are you saying that GRE lied to Fark regarding motives for the way things had to be done?
"We can only ask for xx amount of reps from IRON or TOP will do xx"
"TOP already promised IRON that we would only fight them for xx rounds"
etc, etc.

Granted, it's all irrelevant at this point as most of GRE involved in that are either deleted or moved on to another alliance. I'm guessing those who play in the smoke filled back rooms already know or have assumed that GRE either lied about their level of involvement in the deals with IRON or allowed incorrect assumptions to be kept through omission. It's just funny to see it admitted in public.
[/quote]

This is a common misconception. There is no evidence in any log or forum that we ever said anything of the sort to GRE. Evidence has been requested again and again, and has never materialized. The only thing that has ever been proven was that some GRE members used the threat of TOP to get their own way. But GRE were far from TOP foot-soldiers and we certainly weren't issuing any orders or brokering any deals.

[Delta1212]

I do remember being told TOP would enter if IRON weren't given whatever peace deal it was, but I can't attest as to where that came from other than that it either passed through or originated with somebody in Gre, though the assumption was that it came from TOP. No offense, but it did fit with how TOP had been acting towards most people in Karma at the time so it wasn't exactly unbelieveable, especially when it was Gre saying it.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' timestamp='1293697867' post='2558146']
The only thing I'm going to comment on is our military effort in Karma. I can guarantee you we fought our hardest in any wars we were involved in. The only way members were held back was with the no first strike nuke policy on the Echelon front. [/quote]

Even if that were true, that in and of itself was plenty. Anywhere near the NS levels TOP fought at, nukes trump everything else. By not firing nukes you not only ensured your ostensible targets took less damage than they should have, you also allowed them to focus their limited supply of nukes entirely on the alliances that actually fought.

[quote]To say we actually hurt you is just plain false. I believe us and TSO were the last alliances to declare on Echelon. So all the slots we filled were just extra and we mainly helped take out their top tier. Explain to me how exactly we increased the damage you took when the slots we filled weren't being filled by anyone else. [/quote]

Stukov, for shame, you have been around entirely too long to claim to claim you dont know what a "stagger" is.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1293735621' post='2558441']
[b]TOP were never on the IRON front[/b] – not militarily, not in negotiations, nothing. Naturally, Grämlins were keeping the rest of Citadel updated on how things were going and discussing matters with them, but the 'deal' and all the political mess that was the IRON front were due to the fact that Grämlins were deployed there across our ToA with IRON, and therefore a political deal had to be struck to have IRON waive the cancellation period on it. Certain individuals within Fark and RoK may have found the Grämlins position distasteful, though I would disagree on that (of course), but to blame TOP for things that happened on that front is definitely not fair. We didn't want to see an ally of an ally rolled, sure, but everyone should have known roughly how things would work on that front since our Codex was a public document at the time, and the ToA mess was also not related to TOP.
[/quote]

Bob, I think you have stretched the truth to the breaking point here. IRON waived the cancellation period at the beginning, the 'deal' that finally gave them peace was much later. The 'deal' at the time of declaration was an easy and early white peace for them, as a favour to TOP primarily, but still defensible on other grounds because it would have taken them out of the fight relatively cheaply and quickly. That was why they waived the cancellation period - knowing that if we didnt engage someone less friendly and less willing to let them off the hook (and less likely to give a hoot what TOP thought) would have, which in turn would have supposedly triggered TOPs entry on the other side and put all of Citadel in a very awkward position (though in retrospect that might well have been better for all concerned in the long run.)

Only afterwards they had second thoughts, in fear their reputation would take a hit if they were seen to have surrendered too easily. And then, many weeks later, when their nukes finally ran short, they had the gall to insist on the same terms they had negotiated then refused earlier, though their actions in the meantime had changed that from a defensible strategic move to a ludicrous capitulation on our part.

Meanwhile, TOP was conducting a full-court press against us in Citadel, a veritable psychological warfare op against us on behalf of IRON. We were slandered, insulted, belittled, and threatened by the ingrates daily. They insisted we give IRON what they demanded, and in the end our goverment caved to those demands.

Blaming TOP is inappropriate? Perhaps if anyone were claiming they had sole and total blame, then I would agree with you. Several people who were not TOP members at the time could have and should have stood up for us, they share the blame. But I dont think anyone has been that silly, and from where I sat (on the front line against IRON, and very active and involved in Citadel as well as Grämlins as you might recall) TOPs actions were offensive, disrespectful, disingenuous, dishonourable, and very very blameworthy.

I have never understood why so many high-ranking Grämlins chose to honour TOPs demands over the interests of their own alliance and membership, but I would have had to be blind not to have noticed it happening.

[General Scipio]

[quote name='TonytheTiger' timestamp='1293735153' post='2558432']
Nobody said you need to trust TOP Xiph, we don't have your alliances best interests at heart. Really though, why would TOP be expected to care for GOD's interests. GOD is such a small, insignificant alliance compared to even the rest of SF, I find it ironic you think you can dictate foreign policy to anybody. What should GOON be expected to do just to keep a treaty with you? Whatever they do I'm sure it wouldn't be worth the treaty.

You really think you can keep the Karma coalition together by keeping TOP out while at the same time bringing Polar in? Good luck.
Why would TOP care for your opinion on our foreign policy? Thanks for the advice on how we can branch out into our own side "safely and without any lingering threat", but frankly we don't trust you either. I care so little for keeping your 'side' together it's not funny. Look how unified you all are right now. The only reason Karma won is because half the Initiative switched sides, no other reason. Karma would have been crushed if not for the 6 Initiative alliances that backed it. Yet look how little respect TOP get's now for helping win the Karma war.
[/quote]
Just FYI, The initiative broke up in September, 2007. Karma was fought in April 2009

[Bodvar Jarl]

The IRON-deal was presented to us, after it was made, pretty much, and from our point of view, the one presented was actually quite nice, all things considered. Mind you, the whole way Karma went down was more or less one big pile of suckage, so we'd have to show unremarkable restraint not to be angry at everyone over it. Nobody in CN has showed that much restraint that I can remember, and neither did we.

To us it appeared that this deal was cleared with RoK, FARK and whoever else was involved, then we got the impression that those people went back on those words. We were rather pissed about that, which I'd consider reasonable based on what things looked like from our point of view. Obviously, that is no longer the case based on what really happened, but we did not know what really happened, and that sort of screwed things up for everyone.

[Monster]

[quote name='TonytheTiger' timestamp='1293735153' post='2558432']
Nobody said you need to trust TOP Xiph, we don't have your alliances best interests at heart. Really though, why would TOP be expected to care for GOD's interests. GOD is such a small, insignificant alliance compared to even the rest of SF, I find it ironic you think you can dictate foreign policy to anybody. What should GOON be expected to do just to keep a treaty with you? Whatever they do I'm sure it wouldn't be worth the treaty.

You really think you can keep the Karma coalition together by keeping TOP out while at the same time bringing Polar in? Good luck.
Why would TOP care for your opinion on our foreign policy? Thanks for the advice on how we can branch out into our own side "safely and without any lingering threat", but frankly we don't trust you either. I care so little for keeping your 'side' together it's not funny. Look how unified you all are right now. The only reason Karma won is because half the Initiative switched sides, no other reason. Karma would have been crushed if not for the 6 Initiative alliances that backed it. Yet look how little respect TOP get's now for helping win the Karma war.
[/quote]

This post was a bad idea.