Midkn1ght

[quote name='Gopherbashi' timestamp='1333855958' post='2949794'][*]I've kicked the [color=maroon][i]Global Order Of Darkness[/i][/color] out of their streak position - they're at 71 days right now, but it's time for other alliances to share the glory of what they've accomplished. I'll make sure to tell you whenever they drop. [/quote] Awww but I enjoyed seeing us up there, lol

I haven't been able to be around most of the last year and a half for ooc/irl/ooc reasons, but I've known most of you for 7-8 years, and the last 5 on CN have been a fun trainwreck of lulz. O7

I want to say so much more, but the beauty of the bacon roses has me all choked up!

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304224166' post='2702946'] I thought the "point" of the GOD cancellation was more for political reasons or to prove a point [/quote] This. We have no problem with GOONs, and still think highly of them. Sard had a right to be peeved, but the whole thing went a bit overboard in the cancellation thread after awhile. I think highly of both alliances in the OP, good luck bros!

I get a kick out of people who think they need to spy on us, whether in the past, or rumors that we could expect some heading our way. We're fairly blunt about where we stand with everything, hiding how we feel or what we'd like to see happen, isn't something that's in our playbook. You want to gain as much intel on us as you could with a spy? Read our embassies or just ask, we tend to be pretty forthcoming people. Same info, less risk/effort.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299789761' post='2658950'] Luckily, not everyone is into "calling out" their friends, so I'll just let it rest. [/quote] No kidding Penkala, I started reading waiting for a certain bomb to drop, I'm surprised, impressed, and confused at the same time how folks are keeping their traps shut, that never happens anymore. Good luck RoK, hope in the end this works out as well for you as you think will.

Rawr! Poor Enigma, forgot to check and all that stuff wasted =( Happy 4th ppl

[quote name='Liz Girard' timestamp='1298180813' post='2639160'] It's why his hair is so big. It's full of secrets. [/quote] Nah it's not in his hair, he's got a whole chamber for his secrets. Congrats Liz o/ Approved by Xiph pic

[quote name='King Charge' timestamp='1298168504' post='2638870'] [IMG]http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/King_Charge/WhySoSerious.jpg[/IMG] o/ Gotham o/ RIA[/quote] That is the most awesome flag I have ever seen O.o o/ Gotham

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297813584' post='2634835'] Play victim card? We didn't start doing that til we were made the victims! We were keeping our nose in our own business! I believe this is what people had been fighting for wasn't it? [/quote] Have you actually read a chunk of NPO's posts since they got peace? Anytime someone says something negative about them, they roll out the "you're just as bad as us, you were lying about morals in Karma, you just want to hit us again, you want to force us to fight, etc, etc" constantly. [quote]There was no higher morality in Karma, except in the hearts of a few, it was simply a sham. Many of the alliances who were aligned with you were disingenuous. They were more evil than we.[/quote] There was no morality. Only a few people on the Karma side have claimed that, ever. Mostly it's been the other side sitting there going, "you fought for a better world, but you're not acting like perfect little angels!" Morality and Karma have become some sort of talking point for the other side, while most of us who fought in Karma couldn't have cared less. [quote]it will come back to haunt you. [/quote] I honestly, honestly hope so. I hope you get to experience the lead up to that moment like we did. The panic, the fear, the nonstop bickering among allies. It was incredible and the absolute most fun I've had in an environment like this. [quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297813929' post='2634843'] In other words, they started after they paid their reps. And one of the terms of their surrender was to drop all treaties and do no diplomacy, no new treaties, until after the reps were paid. You're blaming them for following the terms of surrender that they agreed to. [/quote] Nope. NPO came out of terms in May 2010. They just started a few months ago branching out and talking to people outside of their comfort zone afaik. If they'd have started mid to late 2009, they'd be in an entirely different spot right now. Notice how the surrender clause doesn't say anything about they're not allowed to conduct diplomacy. [quote]VII. The New Pacific Order will immediately cancel and dissolve all treaties with military clauses. The New Pacific Order will not sign any new treaties without the approval of the victorious coalition until these terms end. All cancellation clauses are considered waived. [/quote] [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297818848' post='2634949'] And what exactly would you mean by 'reorganize our alliance from the ground up'? I mean it sounds good, but it doesn't actually say anything. There was substantial change in the NPO since Karma, but whenever it's brought up it's always shouted down as not good enough, or too little too late. I'm not sure that a proclamation like that would do anything except draw cries of 'ALL TALK AND NO ACTION', which they still get now even after significant change. [/quote] Retraining military so if you did get hit, they could actually put up a fight. NPO always ran with huge numbers, and we found many of their members had a pack mentality. They could cause great damage in huge numbers against a small amount of targets, but with an equal or larger amount of targets against them, they folded, hard. Many of their members in Karma going off their coordination and nation stats, flat out didn't know what they were doing. I'm really trying not to be offensive with that comment, but we saw tons of war chests of larger nations with a day or two of bills, nations without nukes in the top 5%, WRC nations with lower tech counts then you'd believe, I mean you name the screwed up military description, and many of their folks would of had it applied. Other stuff like working with new up and comers and getting the old guard out of their entrenched spots, which I'll give them credit for this, they were working on. Completely retooling their FA, new friends, new faces, an embassy blitz, stuff like that. Just sitting there for their entire terms + 6 months or more and only talking to what are essentially viewed as yes-men didn't do them any favors. [quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1297829346' post='2635162'] What happens after that I can best describe as bunker mentality. Just get together with those close to you and stick together. That's it. No desire to get involved with politics at all. Now, making happy with other alliances would be common sense and ultimately much better protection than a couple MDPs with alliances that have no political power, but lets face it, all interactions with other alliances are political to at least some extent. Because of the political hangover and the bunker mentality, it makes interacting with other alliances, I don't even know how to describe it, something you shy away from almost instinctively. In my opinion, people are ready the signs that NPO signed some MDPs completely incorrectly. Either that or they're simply suffering from confirmation bias. [/quote] That's an awesome explanation Roadie, never thought of it like that. As for the confirmation bias, I think I can agree with that as well to some extent. I just hope when after this is over, Pacifica will see that it's an uphill battle to change perceptions of them, if they actually want to avoid a situation like this in the future. You can't just sit there and hang out and wonder why people don't suddenly change their views of you.

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1297823521' post='2635059'] The matter of hostilities between NV and GOD is something of a degree more advanced than rubbishing allegations, so it's prudent to not act on that information if it arrives via a non-government member that is perhaps taking the idea of rubbishing allegations too far. [/quote] We have hostilities? When'd that happen, oh right, when you made the OP. I thought a few of our members just didn't like NoR, we didn't really feel one way or another about NV from their ship with VE afaik, but hey, learn something new everyday. [quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1297826786' post='2635120'] Then why did they leave? If CSN is soundly defeating DT, why would anyone feel the need to desert? Especially when there could be free reps in staying? Is the promise of reps an attempt to retain members leaving over some unrelated issue? [/quote] Ask them? We lost like 10 members, 5 or 6 of them upper midsized, total from a few days after this war kicked off to early today, haven't checked since a few minutes after update, to inactive deletions. Just because they lost members doesn't mean they left due to rep objections, but I realize suddenly where I'm talking at, logic has no place here.

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297811411' post='2634795'] Just a question. Do you take issue with optional defense pacts? Because it seems to me that you would have defended an alliance that you have no treaty with based on one of their treaties with VE, who you do have a treaty with. I could be misinterpreting though. [/quote] I don't have a problem with them at all no. Then again I don't personally have a problem of people doing whatever they want, for any reason they want. People elawyer stuff far too much.

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297755908' post='2634271'] You expect after we come out of Karma, that we would radically want to make friends of our former foes? No.. we kinda did appreciate being left alone after the imposed looting. Kind of did enjoy the isolation and careful selection of our friends after massive betrayals. How else would you have had us be? Gullible? Quick to act and slow to think? [b]You will never get that out of Pacifica[/b].[/quote] No one would suggest you go suck up, but you should have/ and still should, starting right now, set your FA game on 10. You just recently started to reach out before this war, a year to a year and a half too late to make much of a difference. After the beat down you got, you should have sat there and thought about why the whole world suddenly flipped on you, instead of spending a year+ playing the victim card, and then when you did finally reach out wonder why folks thought you were full of it. [quote]The alliances who were victors in Karma had the opportunity to prove they were benevolent in their intent and they have failed. They had the right to prove they were better than us.. instead they have proven themselves a mirror image, if not worse. They are certainly worse now.. for we have changed.. while they are like dogs having returned to the vomet of 3 years+ ancient politics and warfare. [/quote] Why do people take the very small minority of Karma who wanted to white knight, and be all super goody goody as how the whole side was? We got tired of being beat down, we hit back. We didn't hit back to sit and have powwows and campfires with everyone, we fought to play the game how we wanted to, just like you all were doing. [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297798882' post='2634595'] Well, first of all I don't think Pacifica was ever trying to project an image of neutrality. Minding their own business and staying relatively out of the limelight sure, but not being neutral. Personally I think it's pretty bizarre to expect that any non-neutral alliance is suddenly going to proclaim themselves neutral. And even if Pacifica had decided to do that, I don't think it would have worked as you say. The reason that the neutrality of GPA and the other neutrals is respected is because they have a long history of neutrality and have shown they are committed to and can uphold that neutrality. Pacifica doesn't have that, and furthermore because no-one would believe that the NPO planned to stay neutral forever, it would simply be seen as an attempt to use a proclamation of neutrality as some kind of unilateral global NAP that everyone else is expected to uphold, while NPO hides behind it and builds up until they feel strong enough to return to 'their old ways'. [/quote] WC, they've flat out said that they were trying to project neutrality, constantly. In our embassy, in most of their posts on here where they play the victim card and insist they want to be left alone, it's even mentioned a few times in here unless I'm wrong. By mdping up, and then withdrawing into themselves so hard and barely talking to anyone, it appears they wanted the cover of neutrality/political isolation, but the option of discarding it and rolling tanks. You just can't have it both ways. You're right, maybe it wouldn't of worked for Pacifica, but they wouldn't know unless they tried. I know if NPO came out of terms, and said... alright we just want to be left alone for awhile to reorganize our alliance from the ground up, no one I know of would of touched them. I've floated the idea to multiple folks, and they all agree it would of shocked them to death to see such a huge beacon of change being shown. [quote]This is kind of my point. There was never any outreach (at least successfully) to change this perception in anyone. There was never anything accomplished that changed the public view of NPO as being the enemy. They'd been beaten once but the expectation remained that if they could they'd go right back to business as usual. No outreach, no new friends, no working on downgrading enemies to at least a neutral state.[/quote] I'll be fair to them Typo, they did literally just start it, but way too late, and only after the rumors started that Polar, and probably them, were going to be hit again. They made a lot of headway, but they waited too long, and appeared to only make the effort because they were forced to.

Oh god this again? Look if we wanted to hit NoR that bad that we'd waste our time trying to set something up, we would of done it easy on the day you declared on a VE ally. Sure we don't like you and have been known to joke on you in other discussions, but your "side" is the only one who keeps sitting there going, "Theres a plot! They're coming for us!" Get over yourselves, if we wanted to hit you that bad, we would have already. As for GOD controlling CSN, that's laughable. CSN doesn't like DT, it's that simple. They won, they get to decide what to take, not nonstop bawfests in here. Our stance on reps internally has been since Karma that they're not worth the logistical headache or the chance to let the loosing alliance hold your slots hostage the way NPO did to us for months. We wouldn't wish large reps on anyone, they're a nightmare and generate enough pains in the butt to make them not worth it. All the chest puffing in the OP is mind boggling. I do find it amusing however that the minute rumors started being discussed in back channels that we might need to go in to save WF from you all, that NoR surrendered to an alliance they were absolutely beating to death in their wars with hardly any effort, but yeah we're terrified of you all! If they hate us so bad, think we're trying to set them up so bad, and yet you still think they could ruin us, they'd of been better off sitting there taking a small bit of damage from WF and just waiting for us to come and lauching a strong counter offensive. Instead they ran away from what they and their allies keep saying would be a sure win fight, for what? That's beyond funny. We're not the ones making endless posts about you. You all need to move on, even if a few folks on our side haven't yet, the only thing your constant conspiracy theory threads do is make you look paranoid.

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297754364' post='2634258'] No one appears to think that an increased isolation is a symptom of change. [/quote] Your own leaders would disagree with you. I've been told you all didn't need to claim neutrality, but you were actually neutral, despite MDPing it up. I'm fairly sure it's been said in this very thread, that you all wanted to be left totally alone and not bothered, and that showed you changed. So your own alliance's goal to show it had changed was to be isolated.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297719335' post='2633351'] I have trouble taking you seriously if that is your advice. [/quote] That's why it's called an opinion, you don't have to like it, nor take it. Seriously, you all think the path they took was the right one? The minute NPO came out of terms and MDP blitzed with most of the old crowd who'd have them back, they pretty much set every enemy they have on a "roll them they're trying to regroup" mindset worse then it was before. If NPO's mindset was to stay quiet, out of the way, and leave everyone alone, they would of been better off as a declared neutral, then a alliance who ignores/is asked to ignore it's MDPs to try to stay secure. The linking they did did nothing to project an image of neutrality. [quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297719844' post='2633369'] Many people said that for them, Karma was not the retribution they were looking for (you yourself actually say it further down). I'm very skeptical that declaring GPA-style neutrality would have given us much protection from those who demanded more blood for our past, political suicide or not. There's many who would have thought that attacking an uninvolved party to drag them into a war for no reason other than "they may be a threat at some point" would be political suicide (many decided that NPO's past actions akin to that were political suicide anyways).[/quote] Aye, I was just saying what a majority over here think. You'd be surprised to find out just how many people are uneasy with the way you all were attacked. Problem is though, most don't think enough about NPO to really summon an iota of caring, because you haven't really put in the legwork since post Karma to make friends in the new world. You have zero political capital because of that, so anyone who wants to eat the nukes can hit you to their heart's content, and not many are going to say anything about it, and those that do voice displeasure aren't in a position to do anything to halt it. If you were a true neutral, a totally unconnected alliance, who'd put in some serious time mending fences, maybe that'd be drastically different. As for the doctrine discussion, don't get me wrong, it's a very positive change, but I'm just saying you can't get credit for not doing something you couldn't do anymore anyway. [quote]I'm still not convinced that us going to the members of CnG or SF would be seen as anything other than a pathetic attempt to stay safe until we regained our strength. Maybe it would have, but that's nothing something we'll ever know. I know Angelrick (deserves the o/ imo), but I also know that there was a big influx of 'FA newbies' to other alliances (myself included) to try to improve our image where we could. Again, I think that's one of those 'changes on the inside that aren't very apparently to the rest of Bob'. We realized that there was a big uphill battle on the words front, and went for it.[/quote] Maybe it would of been taken like that, sure. But if you at least on good speaking terms with both, you wouldn't of had people just itching to jump you again, or maybe you would have developed enough folks who wanted to give you another chance that they could of run interference for you, like we did recently with Polar. I'm not saying run out and beg, hell Polar declared war on us not too long ago. We were sticking up for them, and peeving some of our best friends off, and had a chunk of the world thinking we'd declare war for them, based off just some time spent conversing, and some FA work both our alliances put in. Keep in mind Polar is the alliance we built our entire alliance's military on defending from their imminent attack, so it's not like we had any working relationship there to start with but outright hostility. Just some simple talking without hostility goes a very, very long way, and it's something that you all have always had major issues doing. You were making massive strides with the effort directed at us, with only a bit of effort and some blunt conversations to clear the air. I can't help but think after this is over, if you get on that track immediately, instead of waiting 2 years like you did before, that your future will be very different, and you can change people's opinions of you. [quote]I wasn't there on your forums where this was discussed, so I won't pretend I can speak to this at all. [/quote] I'm not speaking of our embassy, I'm speaking of the entire persona you all have projected in a majority of your discussions here. Typo goes more into depth of what we observe, so just read his post.

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297711070' post='2633152'] To take a small sidebar here, what do you suggest we do to show that we're trying to break perceptions? We took part in no wars aside from paying reps to GOD during the last big war (call it what you want). Did we sign treaties with old friends? Yes. It would be stupid to come out of terms and not have people ready incase we were hit. To be honest, I'm surprised what we're seeing now didn't happen as soon as terms were up. If your main point of contention is that we resigned with alliances we had signed with before, I can only say "well duh". Alliances that took a lead on the Karma side would want nothing to do with us, and sucking up to them wouldn't be seen as "changing", it would just be labeled "trying to get back into the power structure" and everyone would still accuse us of being the same old NPO. Paying "the highest reps the game has ever seen", as you and many others have put it, didn't change people's perceptions. Admitting defeat, permanently changing our foreign policy towards alliances on Red, and sitting through terms even while our friends were hammered in wars didn't change people's perceptions. What makes you think that those who decided we may become a threat are going to have their perceptions changed by doing it all again? [/quote] If you can Qazzian, come to your embassy on our forums and read there. There's many thousands of words of advice, and up until the war distracted your government, we were having some good discussions and burying a lot of our hatchet's I'd say. NPO made more strides in that single thread, that having all your active members here saying every chance they got, "but we changed!" Hell I was actively cheerleading you all saying how much you deserved a chance just as much as anyone else. We poked the wound from Karma, sure, by demanding our reps be paid after being told, "Hey keep slots open, it's coming this week, I promise" like 5 times. So yeah, we said screw it, pay now while we're beating your friends up as a smack back. We talked about that already, you can read it if you join, but we both understand what happened, you had a ton of stuff to organize with many members, and it turned into a cluster. We didn't know about the disorganization, and figured it was just a giant "forget you, you'll get it when we send it" [quote]It would be stupid to come out of terms and not have people ready incase we were hit. [/quote] Summarizing some of what I said in there, if NPO came out of terms and declared itself neutral, like GPA neutral, not "resign with a bunch of folks the people in power loathe and just stay out of wars" neutral, touching you would of been political suicide. You all hitting GPA, imho, is what lead to folks starting to plot on you and saying you'd went overboard. Doing what you did just out of terms, resigning so fast with the people you did, sent a message of nothing having changed. I honestly think if not for Bipolar, you'd been nailed way sooner, so your paranoia was correct, but the way you set about protecting yourself just guaranteed the hit as soon as folks who wanted to hit you were recovered, or the first chance for global war to distract folks who might be inclined to help you without a treaty hit. [quote]permanently changing our foreign policy towards alliances on Red[/quote] See, this isn't something that should be touted as an achievement, but you all keep doing it. You stopped holding an entire color as your own, you let others play in your sandbox and come and trade with you, which pretty much just helped you anyway. You did something that I don't think anyone really thought you had a right to do in the first place, but no one could stop you, because anyone who spoke against you about anything got taken out. You don't get a credit for not drastically abusing your power, you're not supposed to in the first place. [quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1297711282' post='2633154'] I dont think people realize how difficult it was for Pacifica to stand by while TPF got attacked, [i]twice[/i]. TPF is NPO's closest ally, and if I know Pacificans at all, it was hard for them to sit on the sidelines while their best friend was getting beaten up. [/quote] How hard was it for them to watch NSO have war brought to it multiple times? [quote]As already pointed out, signing treaties with former lead-Karma alliances would be seen as us just trying to claw our way back to the top with politics by attaching to the power structure[/quote] It's not a bad move, it's a smart one actually, but I don't think that would of been your best move. I still think you should of stayed neutral, got your house in order, trained your guys up more militarily, stocked up on wonders, WHILE working your FA to the max on anyone who would have spoken to you. Take the year doing that, maybe more, and then come out, unveil a new Pacifica who folks aren't terrified of anymore, and forge yourself a new path. It would have been no different then you sitting out some of these wars where your friends were getting rocked because they asked you to. You would have been in a much stronger position in every way possible. You didn't have to sign anything you didn't want to, I'd never suggest you sign up with someone you don't like to be secure. I'm just saying it didn't even appear you were trying in many cases. In our case though, you sent over a relative FA newbie to us, who was pretty blunt and honest about anything we asked, no beating around the bush, no diplo-speak, and suddenly after a week or two of extensive talking with him (o/ Angelrick) your emperor and some other of your upper members showed up, and we had a few harsh moments here and there, but most of it was extremely positive, and more or less wiped your slate with many of our members. That's something Karma didn't do, especially since after the war you still had more NS in just peace moders alone then most alliances had in total, so folks didn't feel like you got punished enough. Yet maybe 3-4 hours of actual talking with some effort cleaned most of the bad air. But sadly, in here, almost anytime any advice has been attempted to be given to you all, this is heard [quote]No, we will not change our friends. Not after they again charge the gates of hell to protect us. No, we will not try to make friends with those that attacked us here, the haters, the hypocrites, the liars. We will not growl, bend or pretend anything. We were content to live and let live but the same courtesy was not given to us. ~ You don't know what you're talking about. ~Pacificans don't do that, etc, etc, etc[/quote] No change, no new friends, but we'll stay by ourselves, and since we haven't changed at all, and aren't demonstrating willingness to change, you all can trust us that we'll not be a threat to you again! No. No. No. That's all most of your members really say in public... well except for anytime you are brought up in a negative light, then you bring out the "we've changed!" and the victim card nonstop. You can't have it both ways. Either you haven't, and aren't going to change anything, or you are willing to work at it. You can't point to stuff like saying you're not holding a color hostage, or you're not rolling alliances anymore, because you'd be hit if you tried to, you not doing those things anymore doesn't mean anything, because you're not capable of doing it in the first place anymore. [quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297716316' post='2633271'] I'm going to assume with VE you mean sethb coming to our forums, and the not-so-warm welcome he received. We were still pretty raw about what happened, and I will admit that we really missed a chance to mend fences there.[/quote] Yes you did miss a huge chance to mend fences, but at the same token... VE, I <3 but that was a monumental slap in the face to send him.

Branimir, I can see your point about alliances with you being outcasts mostly because they are with you, that is fairly valid, I'll concede that. The rest we'll just have to differ on our opinions. [quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1297673391' post='2632732'] Just a point: we fought on the opposite side of NPO in Karma, and had not ies to them at the time. Don't lump us in with the Coalition of Cowards, if that's what you were doing (if not I apologize, I misread). [/quote] No, I was not lumping you in, and I aplogize if it came out that way. My point with mentioning NSO was, at that time, they were really big on the, "we're going to do what we want, because that's how you should play, and if you don't like it, BRING IT" mentality, which I have zero problem with, and I respect. NPO allying with you right out of the gate undermined them trying to play the whole "we're gonna stay out of everything" argument, that's all I was saying. You can't stay out of the politics if you link up with a alliance like yours. [quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297697247' post='2632981'] You really expect that we're going to surrender and beg for terms when we were attacked outright in an unprovoked act of hostility? [/quote] Expect it? No. If I were in your position I wouldn't either. I just don't think you'll be given a choice in the matter, remember you all did the whole "we'll never surrender" thing during Karma too, only to eventually accept the highest reps the game has seen because I guess your leaders were trying to save your members and eventually rebuild instead of being in a FAN situation. I don't think it'll be an easy pill to swallow, but I think eventually you will if you ever want to be left alone again. I hope NPO after this war does take measures to break everyone's perceptions of what they are, but I think they're too stubborn to ever change.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1297620640' post='2631262'] We do not change friends. Our friends are who they are and we will not drop them for political convenience (even if there were one) and obviously they dont want to drop us. That is friendship and its rare in here so we do cherish it. [/quote] Go read your embassy. I'll summarize what I said when that exact same argument was made in there. Your friends had to be shamed into fighting for you in karma, they were going to leave you out to die until it was rather obvious they were going to be rolled regardless on if they came in or not. Your "friends" are only your friends because no one else really gives a crap about them. Don't mistake dependency for loyalty. TPF is the only alliance I'd give credit for, for being a true friend, and an ally you'd never want to loose. The rest *shrug* if you love them you love them. All that really matters I guess. But after your surrender and terms are up this go around, don't MDP NSO as your first act and then talk about how you're trying to be neutral and left alone and wonder why no one believes you and thinks you're just biding your time for a strike back.

[quote name='Bordiga' timestamp='1297579977' post='2631009'] I'm not grasping at straws, the primary point of that post is to lambast those responsible- which is GOD, VE's pet Ephriam and Andromeda and Argo, which merged into VE. I'm just pointing out that in this case those supposed guardians of virtue were happy to work hand in hand with NPO. I didn't really think I actually had to make the case for NPO being an alliance which has imposed viceroys, kept alliances in eternal war, driven people from the game and disbanded alliances. [/quote] I get a kick out of how we're always painted as the bad guys when in reality we are usually just supporting a friend who asked us, much like the TPF war, where we only went in because other's couldn't pull their act together and get folks online. Xiph may wind up being drafted into being the frontman/talker in a lot of our coalition wars, but that doesn't mean we're always the folks who decided to take it to war in the first place. Calling us guardians of virtue is a joke, and there's only a few times we've ever acted like we were, both in regards to the Orders. We wanted NPO and their peace nations forced to take a round or two of wars, specifically so this exact war wouldn't take place again. And recently when we were trying to white knight for Polar to give them a fair chance when we felt they were being persecuted unfairly. Other then those two, we're pretty much down for whatever's needed, morality be screwed. [quote]The Global Order of Darkness forced 200 nations from the game during the LoFN conflict in a war supported by the NPO, who would have also assisted except they were busy installing a viceroy over GATO. [/quote] Telling the none groups to scatter isn't the same as forcing them from the game. Several of the leaders in fact joined Andromeda, but don't let that spoil your version of events. Again, not our call, the war wasn't ours, you'd want to talk to to the dude mentioned below about that [quote]I was under the impression that NPO would have gotten involved due to a conversation I had with Ephriam Grey at the time when he said just that[/quote] You need to learn like we did after the war was over, not to trust anything told to you from him. I remember Pacifica not being happen to have none cells hiding partially on red abusing their protection, but not really caring enough to do something about it either. The only time I know of that NPO greenlighted an attack of ours, was when they coordinated with dropping Illuminati for their betrayal seconds before we hit them. [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297611901' post='2631183'] If you try to cater to everyone's sensibilities, you won't do anything. We generally haven't gone out of our way to pull stunts and this is one of the few times where doing something controversial is well worth it. [/quote] I just hope that NPO is smart enough to actually change this time after they get peace. I advised them that their biggest mistake coming out of terms was the MDP blitz the second they were cleared, with most of the exact same people they got rolled with previously, people who had spent the year NPO was under terms mouthing off and getting targets put on their heads. I got told nuhuh we were trying to show we were neutral! So I doubt they'll learn or change anything again this go around, and someone else will be hitting them next year again because they're considering a threat/easy target most don't like.

Anyone who attacked GPA would be in for a nightmare. It's that act that started the whole "NPO is out of control" discussion circles. Hopefully no one would be stupid enough to do that again.

From what I hear you guys did well and impressed the nations fighting you, good luck and keep it up!

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297221377' post='2626498'] You are right, GOD never said they didnt like levying huge and unwarrented reps on people. [/quote] Actually what we've always said is the victor makes the rules. We don't believe in crushing reps if they're unwarranted but we would consider levying them in certain cases, most likely against the 4 or 5 alliances we still have grudges with. We're the last people folks expect to give white peace, and we've done it more often then any give us credit for.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1297212178' post='2626236'] On the other hand, after Karma, NPO went into its shell, complained about how unfair it all was (to be fair they did get record reparations, but they did rather deserve it) – and when they finally did try to initiate diplomacy (by this point I was in VE) it all got rather uncivilised rather quickly. ~ From the fact that people hate them enough to jump them opportunistically when they haven't done anything, it appears that other alliances had a similar experience. [/quote] We experienced this with them, and the turning point was when they sent over a younger member who didn't bs and it lead to a lot of very frank and honest conversations that I think greatly decreased hostility between our alliances, and all things considered that's a pretty huge improvement. Polar got a clean slate with us when they finally hit us after years of constantly being wary. Had a fun war, put it past us, advocated for them greatly up until recently. Shame that war was finally brought on them, but I think it'll shake up the world some, so maybe I'm happy with the added tensions.

[quote name='Greg23' timestamp='1297195551' post='2625972'] Hey buddy<3 See you and Big Z were cool about it but Kent wasnt. Honestly I was just trying to get my death count up which is why I didnt turtle, that and I also dont care at all about my infra/tech/land/nation because this is a game and its supposed to be fun. Plus GATO never gets to war so I wanted to have some fun with you guys. People need to relax a bit and just have some fun. [/quote] I hear that much respect. SDI's got a nice work out didn't they? <3 Magic this is turning into the GATO thread all over again. People that aren't even in the alliances in question carrying on and getting upset about stuff that doesn't directly affect them. You guys made really good points about telling the peanut gallery to shhh in that thread, it's a shame it's not happening here. Some folks are fighting in a global war, until an alliance exits, I don't think there's anything cheap, to try to speed up the exit. If that means more alliances declare, and give the front line folks a rest, then I don't see what the big deal is, it's war, not "let's be buddies while we destroy a year worth of each other's work." As far as reps, that's for the winners to decide, Karma saw the first wide spread use of white peace, but it certainly didn't mean that should, or was becoming the norm. White peace was used to quickly retire alliances so the core/folks they didn't like could be focused on more, not as some sort of reward for entering via a certain type of treaty.