Crymson Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1293769732' post='2558921'] Lux Äterna forbid the signatories from "initiating aggression" against signatories or OTPs. The voice of the FCC can be clearly heard there, that is very specific wording. To attack someone who themselves initiated aggression against a third party is not initiatory aggression, it is retaliatory aggression. The governing article is therefore not 5.1, but 5.2 - which is to say that it fell clearly within the sovereign rights explicitly recognised and reserved to and by each signatory alliance. [/quote] The Gramlins` CB against IRON was an oA clause of their MDP with FARK. That constitutes initiation of aggression. Even if it did not, the fact that the Gramlins had attacked one of our close allies without provocation would have been a big issue to us. A large number of the senior members and government members of the Gramlins came to us in the days after the attack to profusely apologize, and so I don't think that your theory--or your lengthy diatribe on the matter--holds water. Those who came to us were very willing to admit that they had violated both the letter and the spirit of the Lux Aeterna, as well as the trust between our two alliances, and they were very understanding of the fact that many of us were furious with them (as Bob Janova has referenced). They simply claimed that "We couldn't let FARK be destroyed." We all got past it in time, though, sadly, other factors destroyed our relationship further on down the line. In any event, had the roles of our alliances been reversed, I imagine the Gramlins would have been furious with TOP, and rightfully so. This was all a long time past, and I don't really care about it anymore, but your argument on this issue beggared this information. I hope it was helpful to you. Edited December 31, 2010 by Crymson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor Noldorin Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote name='Krack' timestamp='1293773510' post='2558985'] Have you asked the people who would have been involved at the time to see the logs of the behind the scenes TOP/Gramlins discussions? It might satisfy your concerns one way or the other. It's not like everyone involved just disappeared - more of them are in your own alliance now than were in TOP at the time this all went down. I have a hunch that even Chill could be found if you tried. [/quote] I've asked quite a bit of people and nothing ever came up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1293775212' post='2559020'] I've asked quite a bit of people and nothing ever came up. [/quote] Over the last year and a half, I've heard bits and pieces at several different times and from several different people about Chill making political use of TOP's name (without our consent) during the Karma War. I don't know if we'll ever know the whole story. I imagine Chill's desire to patch over the hurt done by the Gramlins` attack on IRON drove him to do this. In other words, I suspect he had good intentions--so far as the relationship between TOP and the Gramlins went--but in the event, the actions he took were misplaced, misguided, and irresponsible. Oh well. Edited December 31, 2010 by Crymson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krack Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1293775212' post='2559020'] I've asked quite a bit of people and nothing ever came up. [/quote] Keep asking. I'm no expert on "log reading", but I do know that if you (or I) had all the logs, at some point one of these two scenarios must have played out: [u][b]Scenario One:[/b][/u] [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] If you don't let IRON off the hook, we will enter the war in their defense. [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] Okay, we'll tell the other Karma alliances. [u][b]Scenario Two:[/b][/u] [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] Why is everyone on Karma mad at us? [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] I don't know. [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] They are all claiming we threatened to attack them if they didn't let IRON off the hook. [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] Um ... [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] They all say your government told them this. We never even remotely implied anything like that. [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] <Insert response here> Again, I'm no log reading expert, but I know one of these two scenarios exists in at least one log somewhere. /Read a log once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote name='Krack' timestamp='1293776588' post='2559041'] Keep asking. I'm no expert on "log reading", but I do know that if you (or I) had all the logs, at some point one of these two scenarios must have played out: [u][b]Scenario One:[/b][/u] [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] If you don't let IRON off the hook, we will enter the war in their defense. [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] Okay, we'll tell the other Karma alliances. [u][b]Scenario Two:[/b][/u] [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] Why is everyone on Karma mad at us? [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] I don't know. [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] They are all claiming we threatened to attack them if they didn't let IRON off the hook. [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] Um ... [color="#FF8C00"]TOP OFFICIAL:[/color] They all say your government told them this. We never even remotely implied anything like that. [color="#0000FF"]GRE OFFICIAL:[/color] <Insert response here> Again, I'm no log reading expert, but I know one of these two scenarios exists in at least one log somewhere. /Read a log once [/quote] At no point did we have any intention of entering the war on IRON's side. The manner in which the NPO started the war erased any possibility that we'd fight on the "Hegemony" side, and there was no chance that we would go to war with the Gramlins. That was never even considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krack Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1293777410' post='2559052'] At no point did we have any intention of entering the war on IRON's side. The manner in which the NPO started the war erased any possibility that we'd fight on the "Hegemony" side, and there was no chance that we would go to war with the Gramlins. That was never even considered. [/quote] Great! Give Feanor all the logs from that time period so he can confirm this for himself and to his own satisfaction. It sounds like "Scenario Two" must be all over them in April 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote]I have never seen any logs or evidence of a Paradoxian government member threatening another alliance [/quote] Really? I could've sworn I gave you logs of SomeGuy doing exactly this. And Feanor. And posted them in public a few times. He doesn't even deny it - why do you insist on doing so? You're misrepresenting TOP's involvement in the IRON front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor Noldorin Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293779995' post='2559097'] Really? I could've sworn I gave you logs of SomeGuy doing exactly this. And Feanor. And posted them in public a few times. He doesn't even deny it - why do you insist on doing so? You're misrepresenting TOP's involvement in the IRON front. [/quote] I remember those 4 lines that SomeGuy said. Now, I have no idea what the context of the situation was since only SomeGuy's "threat" was given to me. Could it had been in response to some people's idea to attack the CoC before it looked like they were going to enter into the war? Look, I've never denied that he said that. I just don't know what it was in reference to because all you gave was that 4 line sound bite. Was it said to RoK/FARK because they wouldn't accept the Gramlins proposed white peace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote]Could it had been in response to some people's idea to attack the CoC before it looked like they were going to enter into the war?[/quote] I'm pretty sure it was in response to Sparta wanting to come in on the IRON front to help RoK out. 12:14a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) TOP's going to roll anyone who jumps on our freinds. 12:14a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) So knock it off. 12:17a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) We have defensive obligations to IRON and MCXA. 12:17a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) We don't with Sparta. (For those wondering wtf we're talking about) This goes back to "Doing nothing but dragging your feet." The most outright one was, of course, this lovely bit: <SomeGuy[TOP]> You guys better start pulling your !@#$ together, or Daddy's going to turn around and take charge of the Playpen, and I don't just mean TOP lads. Which was said in the main coalition channel. On top of all of what was said, demanded, and threatened in private to FARK, RoK, Sparta and others by specifically Gre and TOP I'd say it's highly disingenuous to say it was "Just Chill." He's a convenient scapegoat, but that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwe Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I'm reasonably sure this discussion has nothing to do with the treaty cancellation discussed in the OP. Feel free to make another thread for it, if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor Noldorin Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293786685' post='2559150'] I'm pretty sure it was in response to Sparta wanting to come in on the IRON front to help RoK out. 12:14a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) TOP's going to roll anyone who jumps on our freinds. 12:14a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) So knock it off. 12:17a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) We have defensive obligations to IRON and MCXA. 12:17a (&SomeGuy[Sleep]) We don't with Sparta. (For those wondering wtf we're talking about)[/quote] I was looking for something more concrete so you'll pardon me for not taking your word as 100% truth. [quote]<SomeGuy[TOP]> You guys better start pulling your !@#$ together, or Daddy's going to turn around and take charge of the Playpen, and I don't just mean TOP lads. Which was said in the main coalition channel. On top of all of what was said, demanded, and threatened in private to FARK, RoK, Sparta and others by specifically Gre and TOP I'd say it's highly disingenuous to say it was "Just Chill." He's a convenient scapegoat, but that's about it. [/quote] SomeGuy actually apologized for his popping off at the mouth the next day. What I am was looking for was the actual demands and threats made to FARK, RoK and I guess now Sparta, not some quote here and there that lacks any content in referring to what he was actually talking about. Edit: Sorry, God of the Valar, had the post in query while the forum maintenance thing was in effect. My apologizes, consider the subject dropped. Taking it to PMs. Edited December 31, 2010 by Feanor Noldorin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Some-Guy Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293779995' post='2559097'] Really? I could've sworn I gave you logs of SomeGuy doing exactly this. And Feanor. And posted them in public a few times. He doesn't even deny it - why do you insist on doing so? You're misrepresenting TOP's involvement in the IRON front. [/quote] One is not given leave to pick and choose what parts of a paragraph to read and reply to, Xiphosis, even if emboldening occurs. Feanor asked for: "evidence of a Paradoxian government member threatening another alliance if IRON didn't receive white peace or the peace the Gramlins initially had in mind." Does you four line log show that I declined to allow or support further attacks on my ally? Yes. Does you four line log show that I, or any member of the Paradoxian government threatened another alliance if IRON didn't receive white peace or the peace the Gramlins initially had in mind? No. Take your straw man argument and your ludicrous claims and go elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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