Dear VE, A dear message from TKTB's supposed spy

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Audran' timestamp='1292082497' post='2536400']
Do you really think we'd go after a former member who was well respected within the alliance without cause?
[/quote]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/wmEhz.jpg[/img]

I'm getting flashbacks ahoy here.

[TheListener]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292088232' post='2536479']
4) VE should provide evidence to TKTB but by no means are obligated to show any of us on the OWF crap as it really isnt relavent for us to have all the details.
[/quote]

I agree whole-heartedly they have no need to provide the evidence for their side publicly, but as far as I'm aware it has yet to be provided publicly, all I have seen from the conversations in private is that Impero came to Jewel and said either you let us do what we want to with Wasdrogan, or we do what we want to with him at the expense of your alliance. (extreme paraphrasing)

Edited December 11, 2010 by TheListener

[potato]

So, do any of the people bashing VE have any clue what's going on? Or is it just one of the usual "you're on the opposing side of the web: you are wrong"?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292087382' post='2536468']
The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.
[/quote]
Just because you are small and frail is not nor has ever been an excuse for condoning the actions of a spying member. It has been treated exactly the same as if a large alliance had done it, size does not come into it.

[RebelBreeze]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292087382' post='2536468']
The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.
[/quote]


You can't really think it's PB's fault that they are leaving lol....

[Jewelangel]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292088961' post='2536491']
Just because you are small and frail is not nor has ever been an excuse for condoning the actions of a spying member. It has been treated exactly the same as if a large alliance had done it, size does not come into it.
[/quote]
There was never any condoning of spying.

[Jacapo Saladin]

If they were unsubstantiated then you would still be at TKTB and all her allies(which are numerous) would be backing them up. If you were a good person you would have stayed even if the allegations were true so we could get a good war out of this.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292089217' post='2536495']
There was never any condoning of spying.
[/quote]
If you had refused to give him up, as you tacitly claim you wanted to do, you would have been condoning his actions.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292087382' post='2536468']
The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.
[/quote]

Uhh, it was a month ago that you were bullying and showing your muscle to AcTi. Honestly I hope you get rolled.

That said what the hell is going on here?

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1292088623' post='2536484']
1. A 6 month old clerical error, bud? Reeks of Incompetence to me, bud.
2. By the time Was tried to talk to VE about it, VE already was aiming their sights on him.
3. Was left TKTB so VE didn't have to declare on them for his sake, which TKTB would gladly do if the circumstances were different from my obvservations.
4. VE still has not provided evidence to TKTB, so far to my knowledge.


It's the holiday season, it drives everyone crazy
[/quote]
well one is true it is incompetence an whom ever was in charge of mask demasking should be held acountable for the error but that is internal VE buisness and not for any of us to say IMO. I would imagine someones head is being smacked over this or at least it would be in my AA.

If VE hasnt provided anything to TKTB then that is just plain $%&@ed up and is a poor show. But Ill stand by my points if he did it then hes getting what he deserves if this is a ploy by VE then they will eventually get theres in the end.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1292076857' post='2536357']
[color="#FF0000"]VE should provide evidence.[/color]
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]VE is under no obligation to provide evidence to anyone. Least of all you.[/color]

[quote name='Dave93' timestamp='1292073570' post='2536323']
If your going to attack WasDrogan, shouldn't you also be attacking anyone else who was in the chat?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I can only hope for as much.[/color]

Edited December 11, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Audran]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1292087002' post='2536459']You want to change people's opinions, start providing reasons for your actions. Until then, we're just going to assume it's VE chasing an ex-member for telling Michael Jackson jokes or something like that.
[/quote]

I don't think any evidence we present could sway your rabid hatred of VE.

[RebelBreeze]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292089296' post='2536499']
If you had refused to give him up, as you tacitly claim you wanted to do, you would have been condoning his actions.
[/quote]

Why are they trying to protect him? HE spied on VE so he needs to pay for it.....

[Kahnite]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292088232' post='2536479']
1) Ok they made a clerical error
[/quote]
"Clerical Error"! People usually get fired for this in a western democracy, shot they reside in a democratic republic.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Kahnite

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292089296' post='2536499']
If you had refused to give him up, as you tacitly claim you wanted to do, you would have been condoning his actions.
[/quote]
Yay i get to disagree. IF TKTB hasnt been shown evidence then it would simply be them sticking up for their member which I would applaud and would not be considered condoning a spying action.

Thanks Sardonic i finally get to disagree with the other side you do have the xmas spirit i see.

[Jewelangel]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292089296' post='2536499']
If you had refused to give him up, as you tacitly claim you wanted to do, you would have been condoning his actions.
[/quote]
Right up to this very minute we are still waiting on proof that there was something done to have reason to give him up. With no evidence of any wrong doing by Was, and his denial of doing anything wrong, of course I would protect him.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Kahnite' timestamp='1292089532' post='2536507']
"Clerical Error"! People usually get fired for this.
[/quote]
Keep reading i said that in a later post. But it still doesnt condone entering member only areas when one has resigned.

[Delta1212]

I'm actually confused as to why VE isn't releasing more information, because most of the assumptions people are making about what happened are reasonable based on available information but are almost all pretty far off the mark with regard to what this is about.

It's not my information to share if VE is keeping a lid on it, but I am scratching my head because I'm unaware of what the downside to doing so would be in this case.


Disclaimer: That's not to say I think everyone would agree with VE's stance if they had all of the facts, because this is CN and I'd be an idiot to believe that, but there does seem to be a risk of opposition by misconception that's currently being courted by the lack of talking...

[Gopherbashi]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1292088893' post='2536489']
So, do any of the people bashing VE have any clue what's going on? Or is it just one of the usual "you're on the opposing side of the web: you are wrong"?
[/quote]
Most likely this - I'm here to represent the 90% of people who just don't care about this one way or another.

Look: mistakes get made. I've been in VE's position before where I think I unmask someone after they leave, and it turns out that I didn't. I'm usually pretty thorough with it and check every five days, but sometimes I'll skip a step and the mask won't get changed. I actually had one guy that came back in a month after he left and called us "complete !@#$@#$ idiots" for not changing his mask. My bad. It was a mistake, not incompetance, and the same applies here.

Now, granted, normally it's a good idea to do a complete mask audit every so often, and if VE *had* done that, then we probably wouldn't be in this situation. But just because you don't change your locks doesn't give everyone else the right to root through your house and blame you afterwards.

[Kahnite]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292089653' post='2536513']
Keep reading i said that in a later post. But it still doesnt condone entering member only areas when one has resigned.
[/quote]

Ahh! So that excuses the security chief's lapse of judgment because someone took advantage of it. Now I understand.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Kahnite' timestamp='1292089911' post='2536519']
Ahh! So that excuses the security chief's lapse of judgment because someone took advantage of it. Now I understand.
[/quote]
You know, I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of what he said.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Kahnite' timestamp='1292089911' post='2536519']
Ahh! So that excuses the security chief's lapse of judgment because someone took advantage of it. Now I understand.
[/quote]
My roomate moves out and no longer lives at my place and forgets to give me his/her key back. 6 months later he/she comes in to my house and digs around and that is my fault. Should i have changed the lock considering there was a key out there probably but as my ex roomate was a friend should i have worried about it. Im just saying that is one of the most stupidest arguments ive seen there. Im sorry officer but the bank door was open so i just went in and helped myself. There is right and wrong and if Was crossed that line he needs to be accountable. Yes the security guy screwed the pooch here but just because he made a mistake does not justify someone crossing the line and entering areas they shouldnt have been in.

delta

Edited December 11, 2010 by Buds The Man

[Fernando12]

[quote name='TheNeverender' timestamp='1292056400' post='2536230']
Boy, I know a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed when they read this.
[/quote]
I am disappointed, no DoW announcements. I was hoping he wouldn't leave the AA and force VE to do something. A good war sounds good right about now. Too many alliances getting near 10mil NS. It would be interesting to see where it would go because TKTB has friendships with some alliances that have friendships with other alliances that could cause some neutrality or friends of friends attacking friends of friends.

(I shall now go back to reading the rest of this topic and most likely continue with the diappointment).

[Smooth]

The Entente is, by no means, denying the fact we made a masking error. It was an unfortunate circumstance, one that more effective security measures are now in place for. However, though we did make a mistake, accessing such confidential information and releasing it to foreign nations is in fact spying in our book. He logged in and should immediately have, assuming decency, informed the Entente of this. Instead, he decided to gather information. Once this boundary was crossed, regardless of our masking error, it becomes a serious transgression against our alliance.

[TheListener]

[quote name='Smooth' timestamp='1292090530' post='2536535']
The Entente is, by no means, denying the fact we made a masking error. It was an unfortunate circumstance, one that more effective security measures are now in place for. However, though we did make a mistake, accessing such confidential information and releasing it to foreign nations is in fact spying in our book. He logged in and should immediately have, assuming decency, informed the Entente of this. Instead, he decided to gather information. Once this boundary was crossed, regardless of our masking error, it becomes a serious transgression against our alliance.
[/quote]

no one is denying that if the "spying" occurred serious transgression were committed against the entente. They are however denying that any spying occurred, and considering there has been no proof of said spying provided to anyone outside of your camp.