Dear VE, A dear message from TKTB's supposed spy

[SirWilliam]

Boom goes the dynamite! May the involved parties (whenever this !@#$ gets real) enjoy nuclear winter.

I'm rather tickled that some of you (mostly with ulterior motives) believe, or at least imply, that VE's masking error mitigates WasDrogan's actions. Keep on tryin' though, as I know you vultures will.

[Ardus]

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1292082403' post='2536398']
You know, I'd love to say I'm not biased on the subject but I simply can't because I've only heard one side of the story, now is that my fault for not trying hard enough to hear what VE has to say? I don't think so because to be honest VE has really made no attempt at providing their side of the story. I really can't be unbiased until both sides provide their story.
[/quote]
OOC: This thread was started at 3 AM, EST. It isn't even noon. Not everybody wakes up bright and early Saturday to rush off and argue on the CN Forums. I've already been on far longer than I'd originally intended.

IC: The government of the Entente is no doubt pre-occupied with other matters at the moment. That said, you're criticizing VE for not gathering enough information when you yourself haven't gathered enough information. If you want to criticize somebody, it falls upon [i]you[/i] and you alone to acquire all the facts you can in order to make that criticism.

[Bill Wallace]

There's a lot more to this and you VE haters are looking rather silly to those who know the details.

[Kahnite]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292055376' post='2536225']
Hey, if they were unsubstantiated, we wouldn't be here now would we?
Nothing personal, this is just the kind of thing that happens when you [u]intentionally retrieve information via a medium which you have no right to use[/u], then disclose that information to third parties.
[/quote]
Damn him for using the internet! I guess this means we're all guilty, including yourself.

Seriously, if the "info" itself (not the medium) was something this guy was not privy to, and a protection measure was not purposely compromised, I would be shooting your opsec chief, or at the very least demoting him/her.

[TheListener]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1292084565' post='2536428']
There's a lot more to this and you VE haters are looking rather silly to those who know the details.
[/quote]

Oh, so it's exactly as chimaera said then, this never had anything to do with Wasdrogan, or TKTB in the slightest.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='WasDrogan' timestamp='1292054546' post='2536215']
In the rapidly fading year of 2010, emotions are running high and it was the traditional time for war to break out. It was also the year VE became what they fought so hard against in the past.
[/quote]
Of all the laughable claim in this thread, this is the most laughable. What exactly was it that they fought against that they have now become? I don't recall them ever claiming that spies should be allowed to remain in their alliances, untouched. In fact, I don't recall any alliance (of value) claiming that mantle. VE did exactly what any alliance should have done, acted on information passed to them by a trusted ally that somebody was taking advantage of a system they should not have had access to. Just because a masking error was made does not give you the freedom to leak sensitive information [b]and then brag about it.[/b]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292077196' post='2536359']
Not sure where you see us backing down. Was left to protect us. This was his choice. We were arguing with VE right up to him posting this.
[/quote]

Don't kid yourself, you were folding like origami regardless of whether he did this or not, the most recent logs of discussion with your alliance show as much. This just allows you to claim some lesser defeat. Not that I blame you of course, nobody would want to be in front of Pandora's guns.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Sardonic

[Sarmatian Empire]

Yay pointless debate! VE is gonna do what they want no matter what anyone(that isnt a key ally) says, which is good. Alliances should bend because you pressure them...or you end up with a PR disaster(did I strike a nerve anyone?). If you dont wanna see this happen why protecting his nation. That'll end well too!

[RebelBreeze]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292086094' post='2536442']
Of all the laughable claim in this thread, this is the most laughable. What exactly was it that they fought against that they have now become? I don't recall them ever claiming that spies should be allowed to remain in their alliances, untouched. In fact, I don't recall any alliance (of value) claiming that mantle. VE did exactly what any alliance should have done, acted on information passed to them by a trusted ally that somebody was taking advantage of a system they should not have had access to. Just because a masking error was made does not give you the freedom to leak sensitive information [b]and then brag about it.[/b]



Don't kid yourself, you were folding like origami regardless of whether he did this or not, the most recent logs of discussion with your alliance show as much. This just allows you to claim some lesser defeat. Not that I blame you of course, nobody would want to be in front of Pandora's guns.
[/quote]

No one want's to be in front of Pandora's guns.... nobody!

[Cobalt]

So what have we accomplished - the people that don't like us **still don't like us** and the people who have good information seem to be chuckling... yeah, seems like about the average day here on planet bob.

>>> I have no idea what this is about, but from some of the posts I gather we (VE) didn't unmask someone correctly, and they spied information off our forums and passed it on to someone? Sounds like a clear cut issue to me. If I leave my keys in the ignition and the doors unlocked I might be an idiot, but stealing my car is still illegal.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1292085403' post='2536434']
Oh, so it's exactly as chimaera said then, this never had anything to do with Wasdrogan, or TKTB in the slightest.
[/quote]

You lost me. All I'm saying is there is more to this story then meets the eye. Several assumptions have been made and they are false. I'm not authorized to give proof and if VE decides it will release the evidence, then you'll see what I mean.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Audran' timestamp='1292082497' post='2536400']
Do you really think we'd go after a former member who was well respected within the alliance without cause?
[/quote]
Yes. VE has done so before, and I expect you guys will do it again.

You want to change people's opinions, start providing reasons for your actions. Until then, we're just going to assume it's VE chasing an ex-member for telling Michael Jackson jokes or something like that.

[Geoffron X]

VE is consistently failing to provide even the slightest bit of evidence that Was actually used their idiotic mistake for anything that would hurt VE. Until then, I have to side with TKTB and Was. They keep talking like they have evidence, but until it actually appears, I am forced to believe that it does not actually exist.

[Buds The Man]

If the guy went on to VE forums and went to areas he knew he shouldnt have gone to being a former member instead of a current one then he spied. If VE forgot to demask the guy for 6 months they are just negligent but it does not excuse the abuse of a mask then leaking private info. Wosdragon or whatever should have told VE about it and im pretty sure things wouldnt escalate this far.

If TKTB condoned it then they should burn as well spying has never been an acceptable thing on this planet and punishment should be handed out. If TKTB didnt condone it then they did the right by accepting his resignation and letting VE dole out a FAIR punishment.

I dont know !@#$ about any of this but from what i can piece together here it seems pretty cut and dry. If VE is out of line then Karma will take care of that at a later date.

[Jewelangel]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292086094' post='2536442']
Don't kid yourself, you were folding like origami regardless of whether he did this or not, the most recent logs of discussion with your alliance show as much. This just allows you to claim some lesser defeat. Not that I blame you of course, nobody would want to be in front of Pandora's guns.
[/quote]
The last conversations we had were to try and keep things from going insane. We were trying to get specific with the 'punishment' they wanted for Was. And to be honest, PB doesn't scare me but I do have to think of all of my alliance, not just one member. The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1292087024' post='2536460']
VE is consistently failing to provide even the slightest bit of evidence that Was actually used their idiotic mistake for anything that would hurt VE. Until then, I have to side with TKTB and Was. They keep talking like they have evidence, but until it actually appears, I am forced to believe that it does not actually exist.
[/quote]

Sorry mate the prove it or its not true didnt fly when NPO was in power what makes you think it will fly now. While VE enjoys a seat of power with PB behind them they really dont have to prove anything because no one atm can make them. While i think impero is an egomaniac i dont think hes stupid enough to try and pull this off with out something in his back pocket. If im wrong about this then i will await to watch VE burn at a later date for being just as bad as the old playbook holder. I dont see anyone arguing that there wasnt a masking mistake, the slippery slope is a skype conversation that being said you have text capability in skype as well I wonder if there were logs for that. Either way all this blustering is giving me a headache.

Good luck to all involved

[TheListener]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292087328' post='2536465']
If the guy went on to VE forums and went to areas he knew he shouldnt have gone to being a former member instead of a current one then he spied. If VE forgot to demask the guy for 6 months they are just negligent but it does not excuse the abuse of a mask then leaking private info. Wosdragon or whatever should have told VE about it and im pretty sure things wouldnt escalate this far.

If TKTB condoned it then they should burn as well spying has never been an acceptable thing on this planet and punishment should be handed out. If TKTB didnt condone it then they did the right by accepting his resignation and letting VE dole out a FAIR punishment.

I dont know !@#$ about any of this but from what i can piece together here it seems pretty cut and dry. If VE is out of line then Karma will take care of that at a later date.
[/quote]

I believe the issue is as follows

1) we know for a fact it took VE over 6 months to demask said member.
2) The people in support of wasdrogan are claiming there was no intent to spy, nor was there any actual information stolen.
3) TKTB did not in anyway codone spying of any sort
4) VE and allies claim there is far more to this than what has come out of the horses mouth of wasdrogan, but are unwilling to provide any evidence backing it up.

[greenacres]

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1292076490' post='2536352']
So you're never allowed to go visit the forums of a former alliance? interesting...
[/quote]

No, I never return, because I knew sooner or later, something like this would happen.

Of course I'm just basing this on what I know of the situation, which isn't much.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1292087024' post='2536460']
VE is consistently failing to provide even the slightest bit of evidence that Was actually used their idiotic mistake for anything that would hurt VE. Until then, I have to side with TKTB and Was. They keep talking like they have evidence, but until it actually appears, I am forced to believe that it does not actually exist.
[/quote]

I read Branimir's quote in your sig and then reread your post. I laughed.

[jer]

Did VE threaten war over this?

[Gofastleft]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292087382' post='2536468']
... The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.
[/quote]

ROFLMMFAO a group that came together just 2 months ago and has not even been in a war together is single handily responsible for a mass of people jumping off the planet. Damn we are more powerful than I thought.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1292087867' post='2536473']
I believe the issue is as follows

1) we know for a fact it took VE over 6 months to demask said member.
2) The people in support of wasdrogan are claiming there was no intent to spy, nor was there any actual information stolen.
3) TKTB did not in anyway codone spying of any sort
4) VE and allies claim there is far more to this than what has come out of the horses mouth of wasdrogan, but are unwilling to provide any evidence backing it up.
[/quote]

1) Ok they made a clerical error
2)If there was no intent to spy then why not let VE know of the masking error, You can tell from the CP where people have viseted i believe so if he vistited member only areas after resigning it just looks bad.
3) The TKTB should cut him loose or if they feel strongly enough work with VE for a solution
4) VE should provide evidence to TKTB but by no means are obligated to show any of us on the OWF crap as it really isnt relavent for us to have all the details.

Dammit im defending an AA i really dont like again what the hell is wrong here. Must be Xmas spirit or something

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292087382' post='2536468']
The last conversations we had were to try and keep things from going insane. We were trying to get specific with the 'punishment' they wanted for Was. And to be honest, PB doesn't scare me but I do have to think of all of my alliance, not just one member. The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.
[/quote]

If people are leaving because things are not how they like it then they have no real idea of what a political sim game is. If you dont like how things are do something about it. No it will not happen overnight it takes time. I have spoken with many who were under the boot of the old regime and they said it was probably the most fun they had finally topling NPO and company. Enjoy the game plot build and do something instant gratification is not guerenteed.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292088232' post='2536479']Dammit im defending an AA i really dont like again what the hell is wrong here. Must be Xmas spirit or something
[/quote]

You're not jumping to conclusions like everyone else. Merry Christmas.

[Rudolph]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292088232' post='2536479']
1) Ok they made a clerical error
2)If there was no intent to spy then why not let VE know of the masking error, You can tell from the CP where people have viseted i believe so if he vistited member only areas after resigning it just looks bad.
3) The TKTB should cut him loose or if they feel strongly enough work with VE for a solution
4) VE should provide evidence to TKTB but by no means are obligated to show any of us on the OWF crap as it really isnt relavent for us to have all the details.

Dammit im defending an AA i really dont like again what the hell is wrong here. Must be Xmas spirit or something
[/quote]

1. A 6 month old clerical error, bud? Reeks of Incompetence to me, bud.
2. By the time Was tried to talk to VE about it, VE already was aiming their sights on him.
3. Was left TKTB so VE didn't have to declare on them for his sake, which TKTB would gladly do if the circumstances were different from my obvservations.
4. VE still has not provided evidence to TKTB, so far to my knowledge.


It's the holiday season, it drives everyone crazy

[greenacres]

[quote name='Gofastleft' timestamp='1292088068' post='2536478']
ROFLMMFAO a group that came together just 2 months ago and has not even been in a war together is single handily responsible for a mass of people jumping off the planet. Damn we are more powerful than I thought.
[/quote]

What PB is doing right now is the same thing that every bloc before them has done.

To blame PB for following the same script is pretty stupid, I admit, but they could have done a lot more with their power, instead of being content to do everything exactly as it had been done before them.

And for the record, I'm not blaming them for whatever this situation is with TKTB, because the only side that's really saying much is TKTB's side, and I know they're not telling it how it is.

Edited December 11, 2010 by greenacres