Red Raiding Safari

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='kotic' date='20 July 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1279603844' post='2380061']
I don't mean to sound like a douche but....no? Haha you don't own all red nations . Don't get mad if your little red Buddys get raided. How do you think the grey sphere feels they probably get raided (percent wise) wayy more then the red. They aren't complaining
[/quote]

The effort to goad Red into war by targeting Red nations only is not in any way equal to the raiding that goes on on a daily basis.

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1279603604' post='2380051']
Your government has already made it's reasoning and position clear in an address to the Cult, and it does not include any allusions to "we'll stop if you ask us nicely or don't like this." Our strenuous objections were met with "welp, sorry to hear that."
[/quote]

You're certainly within your right to object to the raiding of a sphere you care much about, but tech raiding nations whom reside on the red team, or any team, isn't against any international law because such laws do not exist. You're welcome to try diplomatic or military means to address your problems but I caution you to think about the consequences before you do so. Our members are well within the rights guaranteed to them under our Constitution, and I am obligated to defend those rights at any cost. So I will not change \m/'s position on these series of events: \m/ nations will not be prohibited from raiding the Red team.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Emperor Marx

[Omniscient1]

If Karma would have written the surrender terms right there would be no revenge doctrine.

[quote]IV. The New Pacific Order hereby commits to never reinstating.........or [b]the original version[/b] of the Revenge Doctrine [b]in any form[/b][/quote]

That makes no sense at all. I hate raids though and I don't think this is a very nice thing to do. Of course no one ever accused \m/ of being nice. Raiding small alliances is pathetic, but I can see raiding un-aligns.

[Mathias]

Unless you're going to actually enforce the Revenge Doctrine, I don't think it's really useful bringing it up. It's not like anyone on the Safari signed or agreed to it, the only way it would apply to them is if they were attacked as a result of violating it. Since you've explicitly said that you won't be tricked into attacking over it, then what purpose does this serve? If diplomacy failed in private, it certainly won't work in public.

[_GunneR_]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1279604125' post='2380073']
The effort to goad Red into war by targeting Red nations only is not in any way equal to the raiding that goes on on a daily basis.
[/quote]
Is that a Clydesdale you're upon? No one is goading for a war with any red alliances. Just red nations that are weak and vulnerable...muahahahaha

[Ashoka the Great]

If I were a tech-raider, I'd be hitting a Red 'None' right now.

[Sandwich Controversy]

^
high-five, buddy!

There's no interest in starting a war with any alliance on red. The involved alliances simply don't recognize Red Dawn's (or anyone else's) authority to infringe on our charters and our sovereignties.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Sandwich Controversy

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='20 July 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1279604139' post='2380074']
You're certainly within your right to object to the raiding of a sphere you care much about, but tech raiding nations whom reside on the red team, or any team, isn't against any international law because such laws do not exist. You're welcome to try diplomatic or military means to address your problems but I caution you to think about the consequences before you do so. Our members are well within the rights guaranteed to them under our Constitution, and I am obligated to defend those rights at any cost. So I will not change \m/'s position on these series of events: \m/ nations will not be prohibited from raiding the Red team.
[/quote]
That was a pretty quick 180 on the whole "let's talk about this"/"you should have talked to us" bullcrap. Anyway, we've been talking for two days.

The Cult of Justitia has been informed by \m/ that if anyone--NPO especially and anyone generally--asks \m/ to reconsider this roughshod march over decorum, they will refuse; that the Safari is nothing more than an attack on uninvolved nations to get under our skin; and that it is not your wish that "Planet Bob become a place where anyone can be rolled randomly for !@#$ and giggles" yet here you are rolling a group of nations randomly for !@#$% and giggles.

Your attacks on Red nations are no different than the attack on BDC to get under Polaris' skin, or the attack on BAPS to get under MK's skin, or any other rolling of the pre-Karma era.

[_GunneR_]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='20 July 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1279604356' post='2380078']
If Karma would have written the surrender terms right there would be no revenge doctrine.



That makes no sense at all. I hate raids though and I don't think this is a very nice thing to do. Of course no one ever accused \m/ of being nice. Raiding small alliances is pathetic, but I can see raiding un-aligns.
[/quote]
Although it is poorly worded document, I don't think anyone can deny that the spirit of it would translate that neither the original nor a modified version of the Revenge Doctrine would ever be used.

[Chief Savage Man]

I am the one who made a thread on CoJ's forums about this. I have been buddies with Schatt ever since Vox Populi and I felt I owed it to him to explain why \m/ is engaging in this. I was not attempting to lure CoJ into attacking us or being aggressive at all really. I calmly explained our rationale and answered questions asked. Anyway I'm sure this thread will be wildly successful.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='_GunneR_' date='20 July 2010 - 06:46 AM' timestamp='1279604759' post='2380092']
Although it is poorly worded document, I don't think anyone can deny that the spirit of it would translate that neither the original nor a modified version of the Revenge Doctrine would ever be used.
[/quote]

I would view it as such too.

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 01:45 AM' timestamp='1279604709' post='2380091']
That was a pretty quick 180 on the whole "let's talk about this"/"you should have talked to us" bullcrap. Anyway, we've been talking for two days.

The Cult of Justitia has been informed by \m/ that if anyone--NPO especially and anyone generally--asks \m/ to reconsider this roughshod march over decorum, they will refuse; that the Safari is nothing more than an attack on uninvolved nations to get under our skin; and that it is not your wish that "Planet Bob become a place where anyone can be rolled randomly for !@#$ and giggles" yet here you are rolling a group of nations randomly for !@#$% and giggles.

Your attacks on Red nations are no different than the attack on BDC to get under Polaris' skin, or the attack on BAPS to get under MK's skin, or any other rolling of the pre-Karma era.
[/quote]

Perhaps the wording was a little off but what I said was you should probably talk to us about it (privately, but you've made your choice) but I gave no guarantee that we'd change our stance.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Emperor Marx

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 01:45 AM' timestamp='1279604709' post='2380091']
That was a pretty quick 180 on the whole "let's talk about this"/"you should have talked to us" bullcrap. Anyway, we've been talking for two days.

The Cult of Justitia has been informed by \m/ that if anyone--NPO especially and anyone generally--asks \m/ to reconsider this roughshod march over decorum, they will refuse; that the Safari is nothing more than an attack on uninvolved nations to get under our skin; and that it is not your wish that "Planet Bob become a place where anyone can be rolled randomly for !@#$ and giggles" yet here you are rolling a group of nations randomly for !@#$% and giggles.

Your attacks on Red nations are no different than the attack on BDC to get under Polaris' skin, or the attack on BAPS to get under MK's skin, or any other rolling of the pre-Karma era.
[/quote]

Schatt you are misrepresenting what I told you and you know it. I stated I did not want any [i]alliance[/i] to be rolled. I specifically stated that I wanted to limit raiding to unaligneds and tiny unprotected alliances and not for things like the attack on BDC or BAPS. In addition, I did not say this was to get under your skin. I explained our reasons for opposing team unaligned protection. In fact the only reason I came to CoJ at all was to mitigate the inevitable backlash from an alliance I rather like. I most assuredly did not do this to get under your skin. The other alliances may have, but I did not.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 12:45 AM' timestamp='1279604709' post='2380091']

Your attacks on Red nations are no different than the attack on BDC to get under Polaris' skin, or the attack on BAPS to get under MK's skin, or any other rolling of the pre-Karma era.
[/quote]

You didn't know? This is a brave new era we live in

[relyt92]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='19 July 2010 - 11:42 PM' timestamp='1279604549' post='2380086']
If I were a tech-raider, I'd be hitting a Red 'None' right now.
[/quote]
If I could finda good target in my range, I'd be hitting them.

[Sakura]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='19 July 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1279603655' post='2380055']
Where is the DoW on all those mentioned alliances?
[/quote]

I suspect that its not likely to happen... given that it would be akin to what started off the last big war (which I think of as the Facepalm War, because of the reasons that Polar/TOP declared on \m/ and CnG).

To the OP:

Really in order to block someone from raiding on any colour, it must be either in their alliance's charter, or in a treaty they signed, otherwise, you're being just as bad -- if not *worse* than you peg the raiders as being.

[D34th]

I read this thread, remember Louis Armstrong

[i]And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Yes, I think to myself, what a wonderful world...[/i]

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='20 July 2010 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1279605419' post='2380115']
You didn't know? This is a brave new era we live in
[/quote]
Yes, this brave new era where we don't allow groups to claim whole colour spheres for themselves.

[Biazt]

I asked GOONS members what they thought about their raiding of red in light of this post. I received the following response:

"Feels good man"

[Mathias]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='20 July 2010 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1279605419' post='2380115']
You didn't know? This is a brave new era we live in
[/quote]

Because raiding unaligned nations is tantamount to attacking established alliances.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='20 July 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1279605419' post='2380115']
You didn't know? This is a brave new era we live in
[/quote]
Wouldn't he be proud, never stops bragging about how he helped create it.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='20 July 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1279605419' post='2380115']
You didn't know? This is a brave new era we live in
[/quote]
It's been a year and people are still spouting this one?

[mythicknight]

Roll Red.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' date='20 July 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1279606003' post='2380136']
It's been a year and people are still spouting this one?
[/quote]
iirc NPO surrendered in early August

Also, Schatt much love but tbh red is as legal to raid as is aqua, pink, white, maroon..etc

[Jacapo Saladin]

Honestly? This is what we have to be upset about these days? I don't support tech raiding at all, but it is your own fault if you dont find an alliance to be a member of and you get raided. Yeah I have no doubt they did it to upset NPO and Red Dawn, but so what?