Red Raiding Safari

[Iserlohn]

I salute the nations participating in the Red Raiding Safari for their tireless efforts promoting fiscal responsibility!

(You know, by preventing NPO from spending coin it doesn't have)

[Penkala]

If only everyone could control who can and cannot be attacked by implementing a policy, and then expect everyone else to follow it! Maybe we could all implement a policy of 'you may not attack us.' Are you then forced to oblige? Why is red special? Why do we have to follow rules you lay out?

Edited July 20, 2010 by Penkala

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='Penkala' date='20 July 2010 - 04:08 AM' timestamp='1279613274' post='2380287']
If only everyone could control who can and cannot be attacked by implementing a policy, and then expecting everyone else to follow it. Maybe we could all implement a policy of 'you may not attack us.' Are you then forced to oblige? Why is red special? Why do we have to follow rules you lay out?
[/quote]
Should have asked that question a year ago.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Penkala' date='20 July 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1279613274' post='2380287']
If only everyone could control who can and cannot be attacked by implementing a policy, and then expecting everyone else to follow it. Maybe we could all implement a policy of 'you may not attack us.' Are you then forced to oblige? Why is red special? Why do we have to follow rules you lay out?
[/quote]

TOLWYN already tried that. It failed pretty miserably I think.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='20 July 2010 - 06:15 PM' timestamp='1279613691' post='2380294']
TOLWYN already tried that. It failed pretty miserably I think.
[/quote]

Basically everything TOLWYN said or did was a joke; it was hilarious seeing everyone completely misreading the situation and treating him as though he was being deadly serious and that [i]they[/i] were the funny ones.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='20 July 2010 - 04:15 AM' timestamp='1279613691' post='2380294']
TOLWYN already tried that. It failed pretty miserably I think.
[/quote]

Yes but Tolwyn was joking. This is NPO [i]actually believing[/i] we have to follow their doctrines and policies. If so, then that means they would have to follow ours, right? [i]THAT[/i] could get interesting.

The point is, NPO is a sovereign alliance. As is MK, and \m/, and GOONS. NPO's decisions are not binding on MK, or \m/, or GOONS. And to think otherwise is foolish. NPO does not dictate what MK/\m//GOONS/etc. do. Tough luck.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1279614147' post='2380298']
Basically everything TOLWYN said or did was a joke; it was hilarious seeing everyone completely misreading the situation and treating him as though he was being deadly serious and that [i]they[/i] were the funny ones.
[/quote]


[quote name='Penkala' date='20 July 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1279614846' post='2380300']
Yes but Tolwyn was joking. This is NPO [i]actually believing[/i] we have to follow their doctrines and policies. If so, then that means they would have to follow ours, right? [i]THAT[/i] could get interesting.

The point is, NPO is a sovereign alliance. As is MK, and \m/, and GOONS. NPO's decisions are not binding on MK, or \m/, or GOONS. And to think otherwise is foolish. NPO does not dictate what MK/\m//GOONS/etc. do. Tough luck.
[/quote]

I understand I figured I just try to through more lulz into the thread.

[D34th]

[quote name='the masheen' date='20 July 2010 - 04:52 AM' timestamp='1279608726' post='2380208']
Yeah, almost as laughable as claiming it's just to show that they're "The toughest kids on the block". I was simply pointing out that PC, GOONS, Umbrella, \m/, and MK are all friends and I'm sure they're having a good time raiding together. Having good times with your friends is a form of bonding.
[/quote]

If you think that bully and steal from the weak is a good thing to do with your friends than you have problems.

[Moridin]

[quote name='the masheen' date='19 July 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1279608726' post='2380208']
Yeah, almost as laughable as claiming it's just to show that they're "The toughest kids on the block". I was simply pointing out that PC, GOONS, Umbrella, \m/, and MK are all friends and I'm sure they're having a good time raiding together. Having good times with your friends is a form of bonding.
[/quote]

No, a show of power is the express purpose of this raid. There would not be an organized raid on Red if they didn't want to show they're too powerful for the NPO to attempt to enforce the Revenge Doctrine. I don't doubt they're having a good good time doing it, but the raid was not designed as a bonding exercise.

[Believland]

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 04:22 AM' timestamp='1279614147' post='2380298']
Basically everything TOLWYN said or did was a joke; it was hilarious seeing everyone completely misreading the situation and treating him as though he was being deadly serious and that [i]they[/i] were the funny ones.
[/quote]

Actually, he was honest to Nicole serious about that. But, please keep talking about things you know nothing about.

I see this as nothing more than a potshot at NPO and nothing else. I've read what CSM said about this in CoJ's embassy but, I feel his argument. Which was trying to show that other alliances and blocs couldn't say that their sphere is un-raidable. I believe that's not really a standing point because no one has done it, save for NPO, FAN and GOLD. And we all know how that ended for them. The only one who was even close, IIRC, to establishing something like this was PWN on the Pink sphere a year back? And that was a very loose policy and was more of a diplomatic solution for the raided to get peace than banning raiding on the Pink sphere.

[Banksy]

[quote name='savethecheerleader' date='20 July 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1279611801' post='2380262']
I can see the parallels between this sort of protection and ownership. However, I have a problem with using the words interchangeably. Saying the signatories of Red DAWN are trying to claim ownership over other red nations feels a lot like an attempt to flip the moral image of the whole situation. By trying to paint what Red DAWN is doing as wrong, as imperialistic and arrogant, some might seek to divert attention from the true offense: the destruction of innocent nations. For those of you who don't care about or don't believe in morality, this doesn't really matter. But there are powerful individuals and alliances that do care about that sort of thing, and its easy to see how someone might attempt to sway these people's opinions on the matter by using this sort of disingenuous description of what Red DAWN is doing.[/quote]
Yes, I agree with the later part, this was a dumb move.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='20 July 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1279611900' post='2380266']
The right to exclude is certainly a hallmark of ownership, property and otherwise, but I don't see any of that here (once again, that would have been the Moldavi Doctrine). Here, they are saying "you cannot attack", not "you are excluded from entry to red". In a way, I would think patronage would be more of an accurate word, and I do not find patronage to be an unacceptable practice.[/quote]
heh Patronage is certainly a better word. I guess our difference is that I see patronage as unacceptable, essentially as it can be interpreted as a de facto Moldavi Doctrine.

That said, the manner in which this has been handled is childish, from both sides. The NPO is using the fact that the Karma terms said there will be no continuation of the 'original' Moldavi doctrine to try and launch a PR battle on the Karma signatories. They are using the other signatories of Red Dawn for this end. They could have chosen a thousand other names for this policy, but instead chose to use the 'Revenge Doctrine' in an attempt to rile people up. They are not in the position to back up this raid up, it is a shallow attempt at spinning some negative PR points for 'the unjust.' GOONs, \m/, MK etc fell for the bait rather spectacularly.

I am confused as to why CoJ are letting themselves be used for this, however. Last I heard, Moo was the one e-lawyering his way around this. Where is the NPO's response?

Edited July 20, 2010 by Banksy

[D34th]

The raiders don't need nobody to make them look bad Banksy, they can do that themselves for doing things like Red Safari just to piss off people.

But is funny to see you trying to blame NPO for this, really funny.

EBIL NPO!1!1!!11 lulz

Edited July 20, 2010 by D34th

[Believland]

[quote name='Banksy' date='20 July 2010 - 04:55 AM' timestamp='1279616112' post='2380315']
Yes, I agree with the later part, this was a dumb move.


heh Patronage is certainly a better word. I guess our difference is that I see patronage as unacceptable, essentially as it can be interpreted as a de facto Moldavi Doctrine.

That said, the manner in which this has been handled is childish, from both sides. The NPO is using the fact that the Karma terms said there will be no continuation of the 'original' Moldavi doctrine to try and launch a PR battle on the Karma signatories. They are using the other signatories of Red Dawn for this end. They could have chosen a thousand other names for this policy, but instead chose to use the 'Revenge Doctrine' in an attempt to rile people up. They are not in the position to back up this raid up, it is a shallow attempt at spinning some negative PR points for 'the unjust.' GOONs, \m/, MK etc fell for the bait rather spectacularly.

I am confused as to why CoJ are letting themselves be used for this, however. Last I heard, Moo was the one e-lawyering his way around this. Where is the NPO's response?
[/quote]

You're giving NPO too much credit and not the other members of Red Dawn enough.

[Banksy]

[quote name='D34th' date='20 July 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1279616399' post='2380322']
The raiders don't need nobody to make them look bad Banksy, they can do that themselves for doing things like Red Safari just to piss off people.

But is funny to see you trying to blame NPO for this, really funny.

EBIL NPO!1!1!!11 lulz
[/quote]
Yeah, raiders have an unique ability to make themselves look !@#$@#$ retarded. But so do the moralists who scream each time someone mentions a raid on the OWF.

It's quite easy to blame the NPO. No policy, no issue. Every mini-moralist could go back to turning a blind eye to raiding. They are just as much at fault as the raiders.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Believland' date='20 July 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1279616706' post='2380325']
You're giving NPO too much credit and not the other members of Red Dawn enough.
[/quote]
I dunno, that Moo rant about the word 'original' and the fact it's called the 'Revenge Doctrine' tend to do that.

[Believland]

Yes, but you took out The Cult along with the other members of Red Dawn, out of the equation. I can see why you're so mistaken now.

[lebubu]

[quote name='magicninja' date='20 July 2010 - 07:30 AM' timestamp='1279603841' post='2380060']
Fighting a PR war like this is probably not the best way to go about it because you are just giving them some kind of sick, twisted satisfaction.
[/quote]

You know it. I salute my brave comrades, I can only hope to be able to join you in your hunt in the red wastelands!

[Dexomega]

[quote name='NationRuler' date='20 July 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1279603497' post='2380049']
\m/ should create a mercy forum so Red Dawn can 'ask that they please stop' properly.
[/quote]
Maybe CSN should join in the Safari then. It's obvious that you want to stamp all over someone else's ideals.

Sorry if I come across as a prick but come on.

[D34th]

[quote name='Banksy' date='20 July 2010 - 07:06 AM' timestamp='1279616770' post='2380326']
Yeah, raiders have an unique ability to make themselves look !@#$@#$ retarded. But so do the moralists who scream each time someone mentions a raid on the OWF.

It's quite easy to blame the NPO. No policy, no issue. Every mini-moralist could go back to turning a blind eye to raiding. They are just as much at fault as the raiders.
[/quote]

Morality is immoral I know.

What you're saying is a flawed logic, it's like say "No law, no criminals"

[Voytek]

[quote name='D34th' date='20 July 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1279617903' post='2380338']What you're saying is a flawed logic, it's like say "No law, no criminals"[/quote]
Actually criminals are by definition people who break the law - if there's no law to break then how can one be a criminal? The logic is sound, sorry about your apparent belief in absolute morality.

[D34th]

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 07:30 AM' timestamp='1279618186' post='2380339']
Actually criminals are by definition people who break the law - if there's no law to break then how can one be a criminal? The logic is sound, sorry about your apparent belief in absolute morality.
[/quote]

What I'm trying to say is that you can't blame the laws for the existence of criminals like you can't blame this policy for the existence of raiders or to be more specific, the existence of this issue, that's why it's a flawed logic and before you people try to say that's a difference between laws and policies this isn't a a comparison but an analogy.

Edited July 20, 2010 by D34th

[BDRocks]

Stop trying to protect an entire sphere, and the safari will end.....until then..the alliances involved will continue to express their sovereignty by raiding.

[Voytek]

[quote name='D34th' date='20 July 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1279618632' post='2380341']
What I'm trying to say is that you can't blame the laws for the existence of criminals like you can't blame the policy for the existence of raiders of this specific issue, that's why it's a flawed logic and before you people try to say that's a difference between laws and policies this isn't a a comparison but an analogy.
[/quote]
It's a bad analogy. Criminals [i]wouldn't exist[/i] without laws as I already explained, but tech raiders would still exist without policies like Red Dawn's because they aren't defined by them.

PS: Analogies and comparisons are basically the same thing. Welp!

[Caleb279]

This is why you join black

[D34th]

[quote name='BDRocks' date='20 July 2010 - 07:43 AM' timestamp='1279618987' post='2380345']
Stop trying to protect an entire sphere, and the safari will end.....until then..the alliances involved will continue to express their sovereignty by raiding.
[/quote]

So you mean, stop to protect an entire sphere and will not raid this sphere anymore? Or stop to protect an entire sphere and we will still raid but just not under the Red Safari banner?


[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 07:44 AM' timestamp='1279619045' post='2380347']
It's a bad analogy. Criminals [i]wouldn't exist[/i] without laws as I already explained, but tech raiders would still exist without policies like Red Dawn's because they aren't defined by them.

PS: Analogies and comparisons are basically the same thing. Welp!
[/quote]

So let's change the word criminals for an specific kind of criminal eg: murderer.

Even if there isn't a law against murders, if a person kill another he would be a murderer nevertheless.

PS: No analogies and comparisons aren't the same thing.

[quote]Analogy: Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.[/quote]

[quote]Comparison: The act of comparing or the process of being compared.[/quote]

[quote]At the most basic level, an analogy shows similarity between things that might seem different -- much like an extended metaphor or simile(Comparison). But analogy isn't just a form of speech. It can be a logical argument: if two things are alike in some ways, they are alike in some other ways as well.[/quote]


[OOC]I'm of to bed, no more replies today.[/OOC]