Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='07 February 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1265501305' post='2165424']
Nice [i]ad hominem[/i] there. How about actually reading and replying to his post?
[/quote]

Sorry hun, I try to stay above conversations regarding childish conspiracies and half-witted assumptions.

Edited February 7, 2010 by tamerlane

[Penkala]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='06 February 2010 - 02:24 AM' timestamp='1265441049' post='2163861']
I find most of you completely contemptible. Your only basis for hailing us or booing us is whether or not Polaris is currently working to further your own material interests.

It's alright for us to break treaties, declare wars on friends, or do anything else that might suit your fancy as long as it's in your favor. But if we're on not on "your side" then it doesn't matter what treaties we follow or what long-time (though perhaps ungrateful) friends we're helping - we're the most dishonorable scum you've ever had the misfortune to encounter - boo hoo hoo.

You flip and you flop and pretend you've got some kind of legitimate basis for outrage, but you're no more than spoiled children.
[/quote]

This. Poor show on both sides.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Penkala' date='07 February 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1265562564' post='2166945']
This. Poor show on both sides.
[/quote]

To be fair if anyone was dishonorable in this instance, it was polar.

[TBRaiders]

[quote name='Saber' date='07 February 2010 - 09:09 AM' timestamp='1265555384' post='2166817']
We just did not want to sign on any kind of humiliating/joke terms as we really saw them as demeaning and beneath any alliance. First terms that were delivered to us were such and we just said we'll let others do their thing, the war is won and we'll separate peace.

It was not done in a malicious manner. Instead I'd say our intentions were noble (not interfering in Echelon terms).
[/quote]

I can relate to this. When I was GRE and we beat Polar in the many-named war, I was embarrassed when our coalition wanted reps from them and was somewhat sad that we eventually settled for paid reps via tech deals. I know why we did it and I am guessing you know why we did it too.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='TBRaiders' date='07 February 2010 - 06:25 PM' timestamp='1265563537' post='2166969']
I can relate to this. When I was GRE and we beat Polar in the many-named war, I was embarrassed when our coalition wanted reps from them and was somewhat sad that we eventually settled for paid reps via tech deals. I know why we did it and I am guessing you know why we did it too.
[/quote]

Just for the record, many in Gre preferred not taking anything and just calling it a day, but then our "part" of the reps would have just gone to some other alliance and it wouldnt have helped anything.

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='Moridin' date='07 February 2010 - 04:40 AM' timestamp='1265514039' post='2165911']
Stickmen declared war on Polar the same night NSO declared war on FOK; had NSO not entered, the odds would have been against Polar, especially with the number of recruits PC was getting from various sympathetic alliances.
[/quote]
Stickmen was only going to enter when other alliances would enter. You can see it in the stickmen DOW.

[TBRaiders]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='07 February 2010 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1265564323' post='2166986']
Just for the record, many in Gre preferred not taking anything and just calling it a day, but then our "part" of the reps would have just gone to some other alliance and it wouldnt have helped anything.
[/quote]

Bro, I know most of us didn't want reps. Sure, we had a few Polar haters, but it was a political decision to accept reps vis tech deals so we didn't piss our allies off any further and not because "somebody had to get them."

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Anu Drake' date='07 February 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1265559197' post='2166882']

This is why we're fighting 9 alliances? For serious?

Grub, you betrayed TOP, you betrayed everyone that had just stood up to fight for you just before that as well. Glad we could see our nations getting destroyed for the fun of it.

/actually it has been pretty fun so far, but this makes it all feel so unnecessary
[/quote]

I think you are implying that all Polaris has accomplished with this war is to create a whole new set of enemies that will one day extract a pound of flesh...and then another. You are also probably right.

Also, treaty obligated participation aside (and not all those who have declared war and claimed treaty obligations were necessarily obligated to declare war on those they did), was there ever [i]anything[/i] about this war that was actually [u]necessary[/u]? Glad you are having fun though.

[Fireandthepassion]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='07 February 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1265565987' post='2167012']
I think you are implying that all Polaris has accomplished with this war is to create a whole new set of enemies that will one day extract a pound of flesh...and then another. You are also probably right.

Also, treaty obligated participation aside (and not all those who have declared war and claimed treaty obligations were necessarily obligated to declare war on those they did), was there ever [i]anything[/i] about this war that was actually [u]necessary[/u]? Glad you are having fun though.
[/quote]

No none of this escalation was necessary had \m/ taken the peace offer right away that was given to them on day 1.

Also we can't betray TOP. Polaris has no obligation to TOP at all. TOP came to Polaris. Polaris did not ask for assistance from TOP. If Polaris did then why would TOP declare on an uninvolved group? Oh right... because Crymson has said this war presented the best opportunity for TOP to fight c&g. That alone should tell you TOP declaring on c&g is inevitable, and Grub saying no wouldn't have stopped TOP from fulfilling their agenda.

If everyone here actually stopped to think about what they were reading this wouldn't have to be repeated hundreds of times a day because this is making me miss the old way of things because at least then all the sheep here would be sheep and not trying to be the wolf.

[Krack]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='07 February 2010 - 06:51 AM' timestamp='1265547076' post='2166730']
I've no idea what Grämlins' decision to enter Karma ([b]which wasn't for the reasons you say[/b], but that's for another topic) has to do with where that discussion started ...
[/quote]

By all means, educate us. You can even start another topic if you must.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='07 February 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1265565987' post='2167012']
Also, treaty obligated participation aside (and not all those who have declared war and claimed treaty obligations were necessarily obligated to declare war on those they did), was there ever [i]anything[/i] about this war that was actually [u]necessary[/u]?
[/quote]
In the first phase, not at all. In the second phase, yes...sort of.

Now the war is mainly about securing C&G against the TOP threat. But there are also mini-reasons scattered throughout as well. There's FAN's revenge on IRON, stickmen killing purplol, the TOOL-Sparta rematch, both sides killing Polar, the solidarity of NOIR, getting white peace for NSO, and so on and so on. This war isn't like Karma, where everyone on both sides was fighting for one cause. Now there are dozens of causes thrown around on all the different fronts. People are fighting for their friends' causes, rather than their friends' friends' friends' causes. I think the only real cause that everyone honestly shares on both sides is defending their friends, but when it really gets through all the layers of friend defending and you translate the initial reasons between TOP and C&G - this new war is about power. Not power to control the world, but power to prevent the other side from controlling it.

It seems like both sides don't want to live in a world where the other sides control it. Our side doesn't want to see TOP in control, because that way NPO could make their rise again uninhibited, and admin knows nobody in our camp wants to see that happen. Their side doesn't want to see C&G/SF in control, because that would be a threat to the re-rise of the hegemony (their power base).

[Rhizoctonia]

I find it funny that people are calling Polar Honorable for sticking to their treaties.....yet before TOP attacked they told TOP they would not defend their allies. So how is that honorable? To me, it's a dishonorable show of Polar to say they wouldn't help those alliances if TOP attacked, and then dishonorable again to go back on what they said and decide to fight back. I don't see how people can say Polar did the right thing when before they said they wouldn't get involved if TOP attacked.

Unless this was a whole scheme and trap to have TOP attack after being told NpO wouldn't intervene, and had it planned all along to actually go back on their word and C&G knew all about it. If it wasn't a set plan, then i don't know how any of the alliances that NpO has come to the help against TOP can feel happy with NpO in the first place. Seems to me NpO wasn't going to fullfill their obligations at first and were going to let you out to dry....and only later on went against their word that they gave TOP....seems like an ally i would be awfully proud of.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Weirdgus' date='06 February 2010 - 04:45 AM' timestamp='1265449535' post='2164124']
So pathetic, it is proven yet again that Grub is nothing more then Archon's puppet.

For shame...
[/quote]
If Grub was Archon's puppet, this whole war wouldn't have happened.

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='06 February 2010 - 05:25 AM' timestamp='1265451914' post='2164181']
LMAO, claiming NATO backstabbed etc... doesn't change the facts. I see NV was happy to join the winning side though, even after all the moralist talk you put up early in this conflict.

Seems to me you backstabbed NpO.

As to the rest that hail on the other side, opportunistic...regardless, I am glad my friends are not like you.
[/quote]
Actually, you guys triggered their treaties with MK, GR and Vanguard. You've only got yourself to blame there.

[quote name='tobiash' date='06 February 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1265472400' post='2164584']
This really is the only thing that would make sence!
[/quote]
Not from where I'm standing. TOP and IRON showed their true colors in relation to CnG. I won't be done fighting until they are no longer a threat.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='TBRaiders' date='07 February 2010 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1265565116' post='2166997']
Bro, I know most of us didn't want reps. Sure, we had a few Polar haters, but it was a political decision to accept reps vis tech deals so we didn't piss our allies off any further and not because "somebody had to get them."
[/quote]

Well of course we didnt go around and bragged about only taking it because Polar would need to pay it anyway... that would have, as you said, mightily pissed off our allies, but it definitely was a reason for doing so.

[Krack]

[quote name='Saber' date='07 February 2010 - 09:09 AM' timestamp='1265555384' post='2166817']
I really do not see the problem with us giving separate peace to Echelon.
[/quote]

The [i]problem[/i] was it ... along with several other TOP decisions and actions ... made many of the other Karma coalition allies believe (justified or not*) that TOP's main concern during the Karma War was setting themselves up for the best possible post-war position (leading directly to this war) and not with winning the Karma War as quickly and decisively as possible so that the entire Karma coalition would take the least amount of damage possible. In other words, it looked like TOP didn't care how much damage everyone else took, as long as they earned themselves some meatshields for the next war down the road (which we're currently involved in).

Now you're broken hearted because you guys tried to be opportunistic, one of your presumed meatshields screwed you, and now nobody feels bad for you. Oh well, you'll get over it.

[size="1"]*I happen to believe it's justified[/size]

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Krack' date='07 February 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1265571143' post='2167145']
The [i]problem[/i] was it ... along with several other TOP decisions and actions ... made many of the other Karma coalition allies believe (justified or not*) that TOP's main concern during the Karma War was setting themselves up for the best possible post-war position (leading directly to this war) and not with winning the Karma War as quickly and decisively as possible so that the entire Karma coalition would take the least amount of damage possible. In other words, it looked like TOP didn't care how much damage everyone else took, as long as they earned themselves some meatshields for the next war down the road (which we're currently involved in).

Now you're broken hearted because you guys tried to be opportunistic, one of your presumed meatshields screwed you, and now nobody feels bad for you. Oh well, you'll get over it.

[size="1"]*I happen to believe it's justified[/size]
[/quote]
This is actually a great and accurate summation of many people's beliefs and it was too bad TOP didn't see it. What made it so bad is it's true. TOP didn't really want to join the Karma side. Everyone knew it despite TOP trying to convince people otherwise in stupid ways. Internally, Crymson has said he now regrets cutting non-nuclear deals with Karma's enemies, but TOP doesn't go as far as to acknowledge how much bad PR they created for themselves during that war. It was worse than TOP DoW'ing the GPA.

I think TOP feels that they were the salvation to Karma, when the reality is they were bangwagoners looking for a better strategic position post-war. Ironic that Crymson/TOP shot down the Bastion bloc so quickly pre-Karma because TOP was so close to the NPO (without even telling the GA in TOP until after it was done). I guess they were such buddies to NPO it's fitting they get destroyed in the same way NPO did. By declaring a aggressive war and biting off more than they can chew.

Sad TOP tried to hard to get easy terms for IRON that war. In fact a lot of TOP wanted to DoW Ragnorak at the time over how much they requested [i]for being attacked by IRON[/i]. Yea, it sounds stupid to even me. Heaven forbid you ask for partial damage reps when you are nuked several thousand times aggressively.

tl;dr - TOP has been an epic failure on so many levels ever since the Karma war.

[Blue Lightning]

Get over us, Steve. It was just never meant to be between us, I appreciate you are lashing out in anger, we've all been there. It's time to move on though. I'm sure you'll find an alliance that is just right for you and you'll be very happy together.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Another angry Steve rant about TOP. How surprising! Seriously, get over us.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Feanor Noldorin

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='Fireandthepassion' date='07 February 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1265569826' post='2167111']
No none of this escalation was necessary had \m/ taken the peace offer right away that was given to them on day 1.
[/quote]

I'd say overall that this war wasn't necessary, but polar decided to go ahead with it. Funny how things work out isn't it.

[FeaR_LeSs]

In reality is anyone surprised? Lets be honest now. Its NpO and on top of that its Grub.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='07 February 2010 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1265575156' post='2167249']
I'd say overall that this war wasn't necessary, but polar decided to go ahead with it. Funny how things work out isn't it.
[/quote]

No war is necessary. It's always the result of someone "deciding to go ahead with it."

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='07 February 2010 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1265578016' post='2167310']
No war is necessary. It's always the result of someone "deciding to go ahead with it."
[/quote]

Then wouldn't you agree how funny this war has gotten. We've gotten out with white peace while the rest of the war ballooned into what has been adequately called a cluster$%&@.

[Heft]

[quote name='Hyperion321' date='07 February 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1265570458' post='2167129']
In the first phase, not at all. In the second phase, yes...sort of.

Now the war is mainly about securing C&G against the TOP threat. [/quote]
looooooooooooooooooooool. The most hilarious thing about this particular meme is that it's almost literally the CB used in WotC against Polar. The same CB which was face-flatteningly retarded and absurd and rightly reviled and mocked by, oh, CnG. This war has confused me enough that I'm not sure if that counts as being ironic anymore, but, well, hilarious.

[quote]But there are also mini-reasons scattered throughout as well. There's FAN's revenge on IRON,[/quote]
I'm not sure where this comes from either. I guess IRON's "bandwagon" on FAN in the first war. But, to be honest, I'm pretty sure that action helped FAN more than it did FAN's enemies.

[quote]stickmen killing purplol, the TOOL-Sparta rematch, both sides killing Polar, the solidarity of NOIR, getting white peace for NSO, and so on and so on. This war isn't like Karma, where everyone on both sides was fighting for one cause. Now there are dozens of causes thrown around on all the different fronts. People are fighting for their friends' causes, rather than their friends' friends' friends' causes. I think the only real cause that everyone honestly shares on both sides is defending their friends, but when it really gets through all the layers of friend defending and you translate the initial reasons between TOP and C&G - this new war is about power. Not power to control the world, but power to prevent the other side from controlling it.

It seems like both sides don't want to live in a world where the other sides control it. Our side doesn't want to see TOP in control, because that way NPO could make their rise again uninhibited, and admin knows nobody in our camp wants to see that happen. Their side doesn't want to see C&G/SF in control, because that would be a threat to the re-rise of the hegemony (their power base).
[/quote]
I'll agree with the idea about everyone wanting to prevent the other side from controlling the world - that's essentially what's been going on ever since Karma, and arguably during. Though, a dominant TOP wouldn't exactly lead to an uninhibited NPO. Not that it matters, TOP was never going to be dominant anyway.

Quite frankly, you're all paranoid and convinced the "others" are out to murder you and your children and your cute, innocent kittens, or whatever. There's lots of animosity and I don't doubt that CnG would have welcomed an opportunity to take out TOP and others (say, like, now), and I also don't doubt that the reverse is true. Everyone is and has been vying for power, but there aren't any conspiracies, and no one is trying to engineer a new "hegemony." That died. Something similar may rise eventually, but the Hegemony is dead and gone. The ideas floating around on the other side are equally as outlandish as well.

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='07 February 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1265579200' post='2167342']
Then wouldn't you agree how funny this war has gotten. We've gotten out with white peace while the rest of the war ballooned into what has been adequately called a cluster$%&@.
[/quote]
Did \m/ ever request assistance? Certainly not past PC. It's odd that possibly the most reckless and least prudent alliance involved in this whole fiasco is so far down on the list of "alliances that $%&@ed everyone." Though I suppose that's par for the course here. Even the NSO has been relatively responsible throughout these few weeks when compared to the larger alliances.

That's the story of this war, isn't it? A bunch of big alliances and big leaders caught up in their retarded fantasy worlds and ignorant scheming burned down the globe, as many mid and lower tier alliances just tried to do right by their allies and got dragged down into this whole absurd mess.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Heft' date='07 February 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1265581250' post='2167463']
looooooooooooooooooooool. The most hilarious thing about this particular meme is that it's almost literally the CB used in WotC against Polar. The same CB which was face-flatteningly retarded and absurd and rightly reviled and mocked by, oh, CnG. This war has confused me enough that I'm not sure if that counts as being ironic anymore, but, well, hilarious.
[/quote]
There is one key difference. TOP proved it when they hit us.

[Hyperbad]

They might have struck first but the sentiments expressed aren't really anything different.

They might even say you're proving them right with all the talk going around about what a peace might be like or otherwise knocking them down. Other posters are right to say both sides are a bit paranoid and the only way to rid each other of worries is to show there's nothing to be afraid of, that you won't needlessly harm each other. Anything further is illogical except if you actually want to knock each other down and do harm to them. If you wanna just go at it then by all means. Just don't make like it will actually help the paranoia on either side. If anything it will probably just cause resentment and a desire for a rematch.